Spock Posted February 23, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 23, 2019 18 minutes ago, angels4u said: There will be persecution in the Tribulation but you are not going to be there, you will be in heaven if you are a born again Christian. Hi and blessings going out to you today, angel, Why do you and many others call the entire 7 year week TRIBULATION? I know the second half of the week, 3.5 years, is called that, but not aware of the full 7. I know Jesus said from the abomination of desolation there will be great tribulation. So do you believe if Jesus calls this time period “great” then the first half must just be plain old tribulation? So, since I do know 3.5 years is called tribulation, do you have a scripture that calls the entire time of Jacobs trouble (70th week of Daniel) also tribulation? Thanks and shalom, Spock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angels4u Posted February 23, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 56 Topic Count: 1,664 Topics Per Day: 0.20 Content Count: 19,763 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 12,161 Days Won: 28 Joined: 08/22/2001 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 23, 2019 Maybe this might help some people to understand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angels4u Posted February 23, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 56 Topic Count: 1,664 Topics Per Day: 0.20 Content Count: 19,763 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 12,161 Days Won: 28 Joined: 08/22/2001 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 23, 2019 25 minutes ago, Spock said: Hi and blessings going out to you today, angel, Why do you and many others call the entire 7 year week TRIBULATION? I know the second half of the week, 3.5 years, is called that, but not aware of the full 7. I know Jesus said from the abomination of desolation there will be great tribulation. So do you believe if Jesus calls this time period “great” then the first half must just be plain old tribulation? So, since I do know 3.5 years is called tribulation, do you have a scripture that calls the entire time of Jacobs trouble (70th week of Daniel) also tribulation? Thanks and shalom, Spock Hi Spock You might find this article very interesting,I read many articles from Daniel Woodhead and always found them very scriptural http://doctorwoodhead.com/the-seventy-five-day-interval/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angels4u Posted February 23, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 56 Topic Count: 1,664 Topics Per Day: 0.20 Content Count: 19,763 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 12,161 Days Won: 28 Joined: 08/22/2001 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Spock said: Greetings, Ive wrestled with this for a long time. How do you know Apollyon=Satan? He comes out of the ABYSS. Satan is not there. Thanks, spock The Bible speaks of a place of a place called the Abyss, or the pit. When used in the New Testament, it can refer to the abode of demons, or the place of the unbelieving dead. It is located in the lowest parts of the earth. Abode Of Demons We find a reference in the Gospel of Luke to the abyss as the abode of demons. They [the demons] begged Him [Jesus] not to order them to go back into the abyss (Luke 8:31). Place Of The Dead In Romans, the abyss is used for the place of the dead. Who will descend into the deep? [abyss] (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead) (Romans 10:7). The reference is to the realm of the dead. Under The Earth The Abyss is spoken of as an area under the earth. It has a shaft that connects it to the surface. Smoke comes out of the shaft like a furnace. The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. . . . The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon (Revelation 9:1,2,11). Beast Arises The beast, or antichrist, will arise out of the Abyss. Now when they [the two witnesses] have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them (Revelation 11:7). The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come (Revelation 17:8). Satan Bound The Abyss is where Satan will be bound for a thousand years. Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the Abyss and a great chain. and threw him [Satan] into the pit, and locked and sealed it over him, so that he would deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be let out for a little while (Revelation 20:1,3). Satan is then judged after the thousand years and sent to his eternal destination - the lake of fire. Summary The abyss, or pit, is a place that is located in the heart of the earth. It is connected to the earth's surface by a shaft. It is used symbolically for the place of the dead as well as the abode of demons. The Abyss is also the place where the beast, or antichrist, arises. It is where Satan will be bound for a thousand years after Christ returns. Eventually he will be released from the Abyss and sent to the lake of fire. Return to Don Stewart FAQ List Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustPassingThru Posted February 23, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,979 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 2,112 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/23/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted February 23, 2019 2 hours ago, PromisesPromises! said: "the Wrath of the Lamb comes against the Tribulation saints." He said the wrath of the BEAST will be directed against the saints, which is true. Please read again. Okay, I'll concede that point, the Tribulation is the time of God's Wrath against a Christ rejecting world, and a minor point during the Tribulation is the wrath of the Beast comes against those that are still on earth after the Church has been Raptured, ...Jesus said, you strain out a gnat and swallow a camel, ...how do you explain away the rest of what Scriptures says? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustPassingThru Posted February 23, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,979 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 2,112 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/23/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted February 23, 2019 2 hours ago, PromisesPromises! said: Speculation should not be used as proof of anything. These were two men who had an intimate relationship with God, and He took them. He had His reasons, and all we can know about that is that His way is perfect It's not speculation, it's typology, a common way God speaks to us through out the Old Testament: God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Heb 1:1 Sundry times and divers manners, ...typology is just one of those ways God speaks to us, Story of Cain and Able, typology about the difference between religion and faith. The life of Joseph, considered to be a typology of the Life of Christ. How about the blood of the Levitical sacrifices being a type of the precious Blood of our Lord? The rapture of Enoch is a type of the rapture of the Church, ...typology Didn't Paul tell us the Old Testament was a shadow of the things to come? Col 2:17, Heb 8:5 Elijah, the Word definitely tells us why the Lord took him, to appear at the Mount of Transfiguration and most probably as one of the two witnesses Mal 4:5, but I won't be dogmatic about the last one because none of us knows the future other than what has been revealed to us in the Word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jostler Posted February 23, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 25 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.40 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 16 Joined: 01/19/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted February 23, 2019 (edited) I think precision is very necessary when it comes to handling the Word. Assumptions not supported and verifiable are immediately suspect...and a source of MUCH misunderstanding. I have been taught over the years to take the Bible very literally. Every correction I've been led to where I'd "spiritualized" a passage I didn't understand, got corrected in the direction of such an extreme "literalness" it blows my mind I certainly don't want to fuss and don't mean to call anyone out...but there is reason to question the assertion that Apollyon/Abbadon, the beast and satan are one and the same. Quote Rev 13:2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. This looks like a "transaction" taking place between two different beings. A legal "power of attorney" kind of transfer of authority, power and position from a spiritual being, to being possessing a physical body. Kinda like Father did when He passed all authority in Heaven and earth to the Son. There is a legal reason Father did that. And satan is bound by that same legal constraint. He has no choice but to follow that pattern by creating an evil parody of the true Godhead....an "unholy trinity". But that's really not conclusive by itself. I think we're given more that does force us to conclude the beast and satan are not the same "person" or "personality": Here's the ultimate fate of the beast....and we're told clearly when this fate is realized. Quote Rev 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. In Rev 19, Jesus returns, riding down the sky with the armies of heaven at His heels, destroys the armies of the beast and the beast and false prophet are captured and immediately cast into the lake of fire. But satan has a different future at this point. In the opening verses of Rev 20 we see satan is NOT cast into the lake of fire at this time. Quote Rev 20:1-3 ¶ Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. The fact the beast is already incarcerated in the lake of fire, and satan obviously is not, seems to me pretty strong proof they are not one and the same person. Quote Rev 20:7-10 ¶ Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. That seems to me to be so carefully worded we simply cannot escape understanding that satan does not see the lake of fire until at least 1000 years after the beast and false prophet have already been cast into it. Strong evidence to me that the two are not one and the same. Edited February 24, 2019 by Jostler 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted February 23, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 23, 2019 2 hours ago, angels4u said: Hi Spock You might find this article very interesting,I read many articles from Daniel Woodhead and always found them very scriptural http://doctorwoodhead.com/the-seventy-five-day-interval/ Hey angel, Thanks for the link. I read one article and feel so much joy in reading it. Spock 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted February 23, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 23, 2019 1 hour ago, SelahSong said: Hi, Spock! Love your name! 11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. (the king of the locust army is no other but Satan.) I believe Apollyon is just one of Satan’s many names. He is the Destroyer. You’re right…Satan is not there; he’s been kicked out of heaven (the war in heaven with Michael). Hope I answered your questions. Did I? Revelation 20 20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Hi SelahSong, i like your name even more! ? Okay, did you answer my question? Hmmmmm, not exactly. As I see it, Apollyon is presently in the abyss (bottomless pit) and will not be released until the 5th trumpet. So, I don’t see how this could be Satan if he is doing his thing here on earth and in Heaven. I agree, when Jesus returns he will lock Satan up in the abyss for 1000 years, but not until he returns. So, this bad boy angel, Apollyon, has to be someone other than Lucifer/Satan. Satan can’t come out of the abyss if he isn’t there. Yes, he will be put there in the future but that is when Jesus returns at Armageddon. I hope this is not confusing. Spock 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jostler Posted February 24, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 25 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.40 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 16 Joined: 01/19/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted February 24, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, angels4u said: Under The Earth The Abyss is spoken of as an area under the earth. It has a shaft that connects it to the surface. Smoke comes out of the shaft like a furnace. The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. . . . The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon (Revelation 9:1,2,11). Beast Arises The beast, or antichrist, will arise out of the Abyss. Now when they [the two witnesses] have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them (Revelation 11:7). The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come (Revelation 17:8). This sort of gathers some good Biblical insight that opens up some possibilities Satan is not Apollyon and not the Beast, but Apollyon and the Beast may be one and the same. Maybe. It's kinda interesting to note the similarities between all the various historical expressions of the different "mystery religions" from Sumeria (Nimrod/Gilgamesh, Semiramus and Tammuz) to Egyptian mythology (Horus, Isis and Osiris), and on through the Greek and Roman mythological schemes of heirarchical gods and titans. You can even see the same pattern in the Masonic belief system. I'm nowhere near ready to be dogmatic about any of this, but right now it's an interesting line of speculation I haven't located any Biblical evidence against, but don't have solid confirmation for either. So far it appears it is possible that Apollyon/Abbadon is actually the spirit of Nimrod, satan is allowed to release from the abyss and get installed in a flesh body prepared to receive that spirit. That scenario puts a new spin (and serves to explain) both that cryptic phrase describing the beast as "he who was, is not, and will be" and it serves as a possible background for understanding the headwound/death and resurrection of the beast. And addresses another intriguing question I've had in the past. Quote Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, If it's appointed unto man once to die (and the Scriptures do not lie) then how is it the beast is killed and cast into the lake of fire alive, with no mention of a judgement? Maybe he's not a "man" by God's definition.... fun little track I ponder on from time to time, waiting to see if He will eventually confirm or deny any or all of it. Edited February 24, 2019 by Jostler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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