thomas t Posted February 24, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 46 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 944 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 170 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/05/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/20/1980 Share Posted February 24, 2019 (edited) dear fellow posters, in the thread "Evidence vs. Proof" the specific question of why nature points to God I think has not been sufficiently answered. I want to try here and I'd like to dedicate a new thread to this verse only. Of course I believe the Bible, and Romans 1:20 in particular. My answer to why I think God is the one nature is poining to: 1) Job 38:41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat. I think this happens every day. God provides for every bird. This, for me, points to a loving God. 2) as indicated by Gen 1:28: nature is ready to be perfected by man (my own interpretation of that verse). It has a creat potential to be made beautiful by man! Take a look at your own country and check, when man wants to have a beautiful environment, nature offers every opportunity for man to enjoy. 3) Rev 11:18 KJV thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. "them which destroy the earth" I think this is a double prophecy beginning to be fulfilled in our times. On the one hand, it points to the vulnerability of the earth to humans. This is what scientists discover today. On the other hand it points to the ability of man to destroy the earth - a modern day phenomenon. This I think is an amazing prophecy. Man, in my opinion, has already destroyed part of what used to be good habitat for animals. Ancient Romans didn't have any means to destroy the environment of back then. To the best of my knowledge, environmentalism didn't even exist in those days. Noone even thought about climate change, species extinction and so on. So I conclude, this amazing verse is highly prophetic and speaking ahead of time, forseeing what man would do today. * Regards, Thomas * please note Rev 11:18 is also getting discussed here: COULD THE EARTH BE OUT OF TILT CAUSING GLOBAL WARMING With all the cold weather we are having this winter I tend to think something else is going on besides global warming, could the poles be shifting and is it a natural occurrence and we just happen to be witnessing it. Maybe this happened before, as the ice melts they are finding ancient artifacts... www.worthychristianforums.com Edited February 24, 2019 by thomas t link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomatoHorse Posted February 25, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 16 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/10/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted February 25, 2019 How do 1,2, or 3 require God? They all seem to have perfectly natural explanations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplejeff Posted February 25, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 12 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,689 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 20 Joined: 06/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 25, 2019 On 2/24/2019 at 10:06 AM, thomas t said: 2) as indicated by Gen 1:28: nature is ready to be perfected by man (my own interpretation of that verse). It has a creat potential to be made beautiful by man! Take a look at your own country and check, when man wants to have a beautiful environment, nature offers every opportunity for man to enjoy. Nature as created by Yahweh is perfect, and extravagantly generous in every way for LIFE for man, as well as the other creatures. When man does what is right, is good. (like the land (dry desert) of Israel becoming an extremely productive land in so few years when it was done right since 1948) When man does what is wrong, is bad Like the untied states so often, destroying whole species habitat, soil, air, water ...... people's bodies and souls.... All as God's Word Says Clearly. All that was written , breathed, inspired, in Scripture by God, is truth. (and clearly seen today, happening) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted February 26, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 185 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,224 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 16,647 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted February 26, 2019 Many people have been saved by seeing God first in nature. My dad was one. He later received Christ as Savior and Lord about a year before he died. I first saw God there in 1957 and received Christ about a year later. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas t Posted February 26, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 46 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 944 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 170 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/05/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/20/1980 Author Share Posted February 26, 2019 (edited) 16 hours ago, TomatoHorse said: How do 1,2, or 3 require God? They all seem to have perfectly natural explanations. Hi Tomato, thank you for asking. I wonder why 2 could have a natural explanation, could you please explain? I mean, evolution as I understand it is about survival of the fittest. However, to the best of my knowledge, survival of the fittest only refers to one animal at a time and not to nature as a whole. How would they explain that nature reacts so well when, as poster Simplejeff puts it, man does what is right? I mean why does nature easily look great when man gives it a bit of care *? Point 3. Why does that require God, you ask. Let's assume for a while, John the author of the text, was not inspired. How would he have known that, on the one hand, nature is vulnerable to man centuries later and on the other hand man would have the capacity of destroying the earth? Where did he have this knowledge from? Regards, Thomas * this, for instance, is the town I live in: Bamberg, Germany, I thank God that I can live here. Edited February 26, 2019 by thomas t comma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomatoHorse Posted February 26, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 16 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/10/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted February 26, 2019 2 hours ago, thomas t said: Hi Tomato, thank you for asking. I wonder why 2 could have a natural explanation, could you please explain? I mean, evolution as I understand it is about survival of the fittest. However, to the best of my knowledge, survival of the fittest only refers to one animal at a time and not to nature as a whole. How would they explain that nature reacts so well when, as poster Simplejeff puts it, man does what is right? I mean why does nature easily look great when man gives it a bit of care *? Evolution applies more at the species or group level, not so much one animal at a time, but I'll leave that aside for now. You ask: Why would nature react so well and look great when man takes care of it? Because that's the nature of care and goodness. If I have a houseplant and care for it, it will grow and look good. If I neglect it or actively harm it, it will wither and die. No big surprise there. You don't need God to see that or explain that. And any Biblical author could have known that just from his own experience. 2 hours ago, thomas t said: Point 3. Why does that require God, you ask. Let's assume for a while, John the author of the text, was not inspired. How would he have known that, on the one hand, nature is vulnerable to man centuries later and on the other hand man would have the capacity of destroying the earth? Where did he have this knowledge from? Again, this is easy to figure out on your own as a human. Just because there are some profound or nice or wise or deep or meaningful things in the Bible that you might not have thought of yourself... doesn't mean it is divine. The Bhagavad Gita says some very profound and lofty things as well. Have you read it? Do you believe that it is inspired by Krishna and that he is divine? Muslims are moved by the beauty of the Arabic language that they find in the Quran. Look it up - this is actually one of the arguments they use for it. Does that mean the Quran was inspired by God, because no human could have produced its literary form? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas t Posted February 26, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 46 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 944 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 170 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/05/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/20/1980 Author Share Posted February 26, 2019 56 minutes ago, TomatoHorse said: The Bhagavad Gita says some very profound and lofty things as well. didn't read it, but talking about something profound and lofty wasn't my point. John made a prediction. Are you telling me the Bhagavad Gita has predictive power, too? 58 minutes ago, TomatoHorse said: You ask: Why would nature react so well and look great when man takes care of it? Yes, it feels good to be understood. 1 hour ago, TomatoHorse said: Muslims are moved by the beauty of the Arabic language that they find in the Quran. Look it up - this is actually one of the arguments they use for it. ok. 58 minutes ago, TomatoHorse said: Because that's the nature of care and goodness. If I have a houseplant [...] no no ?. I know, when you care for something it will look good. ? My point was, when landscape architects or when town planners work, why does their care and goodness have chances of succeeding? Wouldn't you think that any landscape could just as well be intractable in a sense that no matter what you do you will end up getting poor results? When it comes to nature's interaction with man... nature's potential is great and this, in my opinion, can't be explained away by survival reasons for animal groups. Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomatoHorse Posted February 26, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 16 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/10/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted February 26, 2019 (edited) Quote Wouldn't you think that any landscape could just as well be intractable in a sense that no matter what you do you will end up getting poor results? No, not really. Think about specifics here: plants need nutrients and water and sunlight. If you give those to a plant, they do well. Why? Because that's what they need to grow. That's all there is to it. Quote John made a prediction. Certainly not a very specific one. He just referenced "them that destroy the earth." This could be understood to be many things, and is very vague. It doesn't take divine inspiration to know that some people do bad things that are harmful to the environment, and to mention that in a writing. Edited February 26, 2019 by TomatoHorse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas t Posted February 26, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 46 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 944 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 170 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/05/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/20/1980 Author Share Posted February 26, 2019 (edited) 19 hours ago, TomatoHorse said: Think about specifics here: plants need nutrients and water and sunlight. If you give those to a plant, they do well. Why? Because that's what they need to grow. That's all there is to it. Plants don't make a landscape. Landscapes don't consist of plants alone. It's the whole thing. I mean this: This again a picture of Bamberg. It's the nature as a whole that makes it beautiful, not only the plants within. I give thanks to God. This is where I used to go for a walk in summer. 19 hours ago, TomatoHorse said: Quote John made a prediction. Certainly not a very specific one. He just referenced "them that destroy the earth." why is that not specific? "destroy" is very specific, in my opinion. When you say "the British destroyed Dresden", then everyone knows what is meant. When you say "my glasses have been destroyed" it is clear that they are no longer usable. Destroyed simply. I think it is important to translate in a literal manner wherever possible (since we are talking about biblical terminology here). Regards, Thomas Edited February 27, 2019 by thomas t wrong word (quite embarassing), I changed it for "the British" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplejeff Posted February 26, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 12 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,689 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 20 Joined: 06/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 26, 2019 6 hours ago, TomatoHorse said: Evolution applies more at the species or group level, not so much one animal at a time, but I'll leave that aside for now. No. It does not. Glad to leave it aside. It comes from an evil source, shown , known, and demonstrated historically. It is not compatible with decent living even. Remember the nazis used it to disenfranchise families - to persuade people they were descneded from puddles of goo, and that their lives did not matter at all what happened to them or their children or their parents. They planned it in detail, and projected rightly it would take three generations to totally corrupt men's thinking. That is what happened. Now it has happened in the Untied States also, generally, overall. And likely worldwide too, as far as the governments , corporations, medicals, politicos, financials, and all society is involved/ concerned. It is spirituyal disaster, attempting everywhere every day to prevent anyone from finding the truth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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