DarrenJClark Posted March 4, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 85 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/17/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted March 4, 2019 I think Matthew 10:28 is evidence against the idea that the wicked will suffer eternal conscious punishment (ECP) in hell for several reasons. Matthew 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. " 1. The Greek word for destroy is apollymi and when it is used of one person destroying another in the Synoptic Gospels it always clearly means to kill (e.g., Matt. 2:13; 12:14; 21:41; 27:20; Mark 3:6; 9: 22; Luke 6:9) . Jesus is here just using the language as he normally uses to indicate the body and soul (whole person) will be killed in Gehenna. 2. There is parallelism in Matthew 10:28 which means the verbs "to kill" and "to destroy" should be seen as synonyms. 3. In the preceding context of the verse Jesus had commissioned the disciples (Matt 10:1-13) and informed them that they faced persecution as they completed their mission (10:16-20). Jesus reassures the disciples by telling them that they will receive assistance form the Holy Spirit to speak boldly in the face of their persecution (10:19-20) but does not address the threat of death (10:21). This is the specific concern that Matt 10:28 is addressing. Jesus will go on in Matt 10:39 to encourage the disciples to remain faithful to him. In that verse he uses apollymi with the passive sense of losing one's life. To lose one's life in the service of Christ means one will find life. There is an identifiable flow of thought that informs us of what Jesus intended to say. Therefore, the surrounding context tells us exactly what Jesus meant when he used apollymi to refer to the destruction of the body and soul in Gehenna. 4. While it is true that apollymi can be used with the sense of "to ruin" that is only in relation to inanimate objects or plants. Insisting that this shade of meaning is available in Matthew 10:28, when nothing in the context would indicate this meaning is in view, constitutes the fallacy of illegitimate totality transfer. That is the fallacy of assuming all shades of meaning of a word are automatically available for interpretation in all contexts. There is nothing in the context nor the verse itself that tells us that the "to ruin" meaning is in view in 10:28 or that the killing/destruction in view is the kind that would leave someone alive and conscious. Since apollymi is being used with its usual sense of "to kill" and the context tells us this is exactly what was intended, I conclude that Matthew 10:28 teaches that the body and the soul (the whole person) will be killed (as in all life taken away like when capital punishment is inflicted on someone) in Gehenna (hell). This verse is thus evidence against the idea that the Bible teaches ECP. I would appreciate thoughts on my exegesis but ask that y'all focus on commenting on my arguments a they relate to interpreting this verse rather than skipping to other verses. We can get to those other verse later (I have a lot I can say about them too). Thankyou. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Who me Posted March 4, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,298 Content Per Day: 1.72 Reputation: 1,685 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted March 4, 2019 10 hours ago, DarrenJClark said: I think Matthew 10:28 is evidence against the idea that the wicked will suffer eternal conscious punishment (ECP) in hell for several reasons. We know that thereis an awefull penalty for not being obedient to God and that there is a way of avoiding that penalty. Knowing this what actually happens to those who will not respond to God's offer of salvaton is academic. We won't experience it, or have any detailed knowledge of what they are under going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplejeff Posted March 4, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 12 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,689 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 20 Joined: 06/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 4, 2019 5 minutes ago, Who me said: We won't experience it, or have any detailed knowledge of what they are under going. We don't have any knowledge of the truth and spirituals at all unless the Father in heaven grants it as written. The 'details'/knowledge (and experiential knowledge) in, thru and of Scripture are there as God Pleases for training, edification, and His Own Glory in the Ekklesia - His Set Apart ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Who me Posted March 4, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,298 Content Per Day: 1.72 Reputation: 1,685 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted March 4, 2019 2 hours ago, simplejeff said: We don't have any knowledge of the truth and spirituals at all unless the Father in heaven grants it As I wrote we won't have any knowledge in heaven of what the Godless will be experiencing. We will be preoccuied withbeing in the prescence of God. We know that there is heaven, where God is and that there is a place called hell, where God is not. We further know how to avoid getting to go to hell. Debate about the detail of what will happen in hell is pointless, it's like discussing the fate of a car one has sold for scrap and arguing about how much of the car will be sold as spares rather than being melted down. A harsh attitude, yes. Does knowing what happens in hell motivate your evagelism more than not knowing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still Alive Posted March 5, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,024 Content Per Day: 1.33 Reputation: 1,224 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/05/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted March 5, 2019 (edited) No need to pussyfoot around on this issue. I consider the hell message to be one of the most damaging things to ever happen to the church - and the gospel itself. And to toss in a big gun on this issue, just go here: Jewishnotgreek.com Edited March 5, 2019 by Still Alive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still Alive Posted March 5, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,024 Content Per Day: 1.33 Reputation: 1,224 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/05/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted March 5, 2019 On 3/4/2019 at 10:33 AM, Who me said: We know that thereis an awefull penalty for not being obedient to God and that there is a way of avoiding that penalty. Knowing this what actually happens to those who will not respond to God's offer of salvaton is academic. We won't experience it, or have any detailed knowledge of what they are under going. What we do know is why Jesus had to die on the cross, when the whole mess started, and what God said would happen to "us" if "we" started the mess (it's in Genesis 3). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still Alive Posted March 5, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,024 Content Per Day: 1.33 Reputation: 1,224 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/05/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted March 5, 2019 (edited) 23 hours ago, Who me said: We know that there is heaven, where God is and that there is a place called hell, where God is not. I not only don't "know" either of those things, I don't believe either of them. First, God is omnipresent, which means that if there is a hell, he is there. But, second, I don't believe there is a hell. In fact, one can make the argument that the lake of fire is actually God, himself. The consuming fire. "Hell" is a made up word to describe many things in the bible, the most infamous being Gehenna, which is the word Jesus used that is translated, in some english translations, as "hell". But it was/is a real place, and has a real history. And that was the thing to which Jesus was referring. Anyone actually listening to him at the time would not have interpreted it the way many do today. Edited March 5, 2019 by Still Alive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted March 5, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,991 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,689 Content Per Day: 11.82 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 5, 2019 On 3/3/2019 at 9:25 PM, DarrenJClark said: I think Matthew 10:28 is evidence against the idea that the wicked will suffer eternal conscious punishment (ECP) in hell for several reasons. Matthew 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. " 1. The Greek word for destroy is apollymi and when it is used of one person destroying another in the Synoptic Gospels it always clearly means to kill (e.g., Matt. 2:13; 12:14; 21:41; 27:20; Mark 3:6; 9: 22; Luke 6:9) . Jesus is here just using the language as he normally uses to indicate the body and soul (whole person) will be killed in Gehenna. 2. There is parallelism in Matthew 10:28 which means the verbs "to kill" and "to destroy" should be seen as synonyms. 3. In the preceding context of the verse Jesus had commissioned the disciples (Matt 10:1-13) and informed them that they faced persecution as they completed their mission (10:16-20). Jesus reassures the disciples by telling them that they will receive assistance form the Holy Spirit to speak boldly in the face of their persecution (10:19-20) but does not address the threat of death (10:21). This is the specific concern that Matt 10:28 is addressing. Jesus will go on in Matt 10:39 to encourage the disciples to remain faithful to him. In that verse he uses apollymi with the passive sense of losing one's life. To lose one's life in the service of Christ means one will find life. There is an identifiable flow of thought that informs us of what Jesus intended to say. Therefore, the surrounding context tells us exactly what Jesus meant when he used apollymi to refer to the destruction of the body and soul in Gehenna. 4. While it is true that apollymi can be used with the sense of "to ruin" that is only in relation to inanimate objects or plants. Insisting that this shade of meaning is available in Matthew 10:28, when nothing in the context would indicate this meaning is in view, constitutes the fallacy of illegitimate totality transfer. That is the fallacy of assuming all shades of meaning of a word are automatically available for interpretation in all contexts. There is nothing in the context nor the verse itself that tells us that the "to ruin" meaning is in view in 10:28 or that the killing/destruction in view is the kind that would leave someone alive and conscious. Since apollymi is being used with its usual sense of "to kill" and the context tells us this is exactly what was intended, I conclude that Matthew 10:28 teaches that the body and the soul (the whole person) will be killed (as in all life taken away like when capital punishment is inflicted on someone) in Gehenna (hell). This verse is thus evidence against the idea that the Bible teaches ECP. I would appreciate thoughts on my exegesis but ask that y'all focus on commenting on my arguments a they relate to interpreting this verse rather than skipping to other verses. We can get to those other verse later (I have a lot I can say about them too). Thankyou. Pick up the Bible and really read it. Read it literally. You will not miss all the passages that say an unbeliever will go to hell. You are giving the words in the Bible your own meaning. That is dangerous. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustPassingThru Posted March 5, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,979 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 2,112 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/23/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted March 5, 2019 And in the love of Christ may I add to what missmuffet said and humbly suggest you depend on only the Holy Spirit to give you His meaning of what He wrote, ...He is the author. Lord bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unveiling Bible Truth Posted March 5, 2019 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 18 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/04/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted March 5, 2019 15 minutes ago, missmuffet said: Pick up the Bible and really read it. Read it literally. You will not miss all the passages that say an unbeliever will go to hell. You are giving the words in the Bible your own meaning. That is dangerous. I pick up my bible and it says nothing about hell, if you have a bible that has hell in it, then your reading from a poorly translated bible. We live in the 21st century, the age of technology and yet people still believe in hell. Do the research on the origins of hell, research why from four different words sheol, hades, gehenna and tartarus translators would translate them as hell. Four different words with four different meanings, and that is only the tip of the ice berg. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts