Your closest friendnt Posted March 18, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,850 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,759 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 18, 2019 16 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said: To properly and carefully examine this passage. We need to understand what happened to the seed of Abraham after they died... Not only before Jesus Christ died but also after his death and resurection. 1 hour ago, Jostler said: your language is confusing me. Jesus IS the "Seed" can you clarify? Hello Jostler, and thank you for your inquiry. These questions, are inquiries only about the Jews and Israelites, not for the rest of the world. For a reason, but in your posting you may expand...to include the rest of the world... Before and after Jesus Christ... I am asking as to what happened, or where the people of God, through Abraham and his descendants went after they die, before and up to the death of Jesus CHRIST.. We have the answer in the scriptures.. And the next question is asking if there was a change ....with the resurection of Jesus Christ... We have also the answer in the scriptures... And then the one other question, This is a dificult one to express...Is asking , where the descendents of Abraham the Jews and Israelites go when they die after the resuraction of Jesus CHRIST, We also have the answer in the scriptures... In two words, " what Happens to the Jews ,-Israelites after they die not only in our times but since the time of the resurection of Jesus CHRIST. Hope that is more clear, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jostler Posted March 18, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 25 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.39 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 16 Joined: 01/19/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted March 18, 2019 23 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said: Hello Jostler, and thank you for your inquiry. These questions, are inquiries only about the Jews and Israelites, not for the rest of the world. For a reason, but in your posting you may expand...to include the rest of the world... Before and after Jesus Christ... I am asking as to what happened, or where the people of God, through Abraham and his descendants went after they die, before and up to the death of Jesus CHRIST.. We have the answer in the scriptures.. And the next question is asking if there was a change ....with the resurection of Jesus Christ... We have also the answer in the scriptures... And then the one other question, This is a dificult one to express...Is asking , where the descendents of Abraham the Jews and Israelites go when they die after the resuraction of Jesus CHRIST, We also have the answer in the scriptures... In two words, " what Happens to the Jews ,-Israelites after they die not only in our times but since the time of the resurection of Jesus CHRIST. Hope that is more clear, thank you. Quote Rom 10:11-13 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” Quote Gal 3:27-29 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. i guess I just never saw any need for complex distinctions......I can't see any exist or reason for them to. The coherent, self consistent message of the gospel just doesn't require any such complexity. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted March 18, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,850 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,759 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 18, 2019 36 minutes ago, Jostler said: i guess I just never saw any need for complex distinctions......I can't see any exist or reason for them to. The coherent, self consistent message of the gospel just doesn't require any such complexity. We need to show cause, why in Jesus Christ everything has become New that the old is alive only in the beliefs of people. In reading the scriptures it is incorrect to use the word Gentiies, which is synonymous to people who are prejudge as unwanted , rejected by God, and iligable because of their blood line. There no Gentiles since Jesus Christ (death and resurection), in the world today. And also in the whole world, even before Jesus Christ... Jesus has died for all, and as he shaw to Peter in the vision, when he called him to visit Cornilius. the whole world has been cleanced that includes the world before Jesus Christ. In reading the bible we should say , in the former world....this and that.... (For that reason there not "Jews", within the meaning of the people set apart in this world by God, according to Moses...) this is in the old world... When we read the bible we should say the former Gentiles and the former Jews, Israelites. Abraham is not a Spiritual Patriarh anymore he has follow Jesus CHRIST and like Moses says, follow me because I have follow Jesus Christ... Do not denied to follow Jesus CHRIST, because you want to follow Moses....Abraham.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jostler Posted March 18, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 25 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.39 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 16 Joined: 01/19/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted March 18, 2019 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said: We need to show cause, why in Jesus Christ everything has become New that the old is alive only in the beliefs of people. In reading the scriptures it is incorrect to use the word Gentiies, which is synonymous to people who are prejudge as unwanted , rejected by God, and iligable because of their blood line. There no Gentiles since Jesus Christ (death and resurection), in the world today. And also in the whole world, even before Jesus Christ... Jesus has died for all, and as he shaw to Peter in the vision, when he called him to visit Cornilius. the whole world has been cleanced that includes the world before Jesus Christ. In reading the bible we should say , in the former world....this and that.... (For that reason there not "Jews", within the meaning of the people set apart in this world by God, according to Moses...) this is in the old world... When we read the bible we should say the former Gentiles and the former Jews, Israelites. Abraham is not a Spiritual Patriarh anymore he has follow Jesus CHRIST and like Moses says, follow me because I have follow Jesus Christ... Do not denied to follow Jesus CHRIST, because you want to follow Moses....Abraham.... except for one problem. Abraham always followed Christ. He believed and it was accounted to him as righteousness. The simple truth of the Gospel is that all who believe in faith are saved by it, extended to each, pre- and post-cross, by the loving grace of God. That hope...that promise of a "redeemer" was spoken into Adam's hearing right after the fall. Job understood the hope of a redeemer. He understood the blood, the necessity of sacrifice. Neither were "Jews". Both were saved by grace, through faith. They looking foward in faith to the promised redeemer. We, looking backward in faith at the promise fulfilled. ALL are saved at the Cross of Jesus Christ. Period. Edited March 18, 2019 by Jostler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted March 18, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,850 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,759 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 18, 2019 23 minutes ago, Jostler said: except for one problem. Abraham always followed Christ. He believed and it was accounted to him as righteousness. The simple truth of the Gospel is that all who believe in faith are saved by it, extended to each, pre- and post-cross, by the loving grace of God. That hope...that promise of a "redeemer" was spoken into Adam's hearing right after the fall. Job understood the hope of a redeemer. He understood the blood, the necessity of sacrifice. Neither were "Jews". Both were saved by grace, through faith. They looking foward in faith to the promised redeemer. We, looking backward in faith at the promise fulfilled. ALL are saved at the Cross of Jesus Christ. Period. To be saved one must be under the blood of Jesus Christ, and Jesus said that cannot happened till I drink this cup. Jesus obey the Heavenly Father he drank the cup of his afflictions, and he died on the Cross... That's why of one reason Jesus had to die, is so he can descend to the place of the dead in the heart of the earth , to invite everyone to believe in him, not only to Abraham and his offsprings with him. But to everyone before him, he died for all and everyone had to hear the Gospel to be judged according to believing or to rejecting it. The Gospel of Jesus Christ comes with the Heavenly Inheritance... And that's what happened, having believe, were on their way to their Heavenly Inheritance, with Jesus ahead and they follow... Everyone is saved by faith, if not how can the dead before Jesus Christ be saved when they heard the Gospel from Jesus Christ and believed in him when they were in Sheol... "Jesus said " the dead will hear my voice and raised first". Abraham, David....and others had known that they have to go to Sheol and wait for their Lord God as Jesus Christ to descend to Where they were and take them above in his Heavenly Inheritance. This cannot happened unless Jesus died first. He cannot descend with his body , he must die first. The spirit man does not stay with the dead body , he is seperated from his earthly body of flesh which is subject to decay.. FROM DUST TO DUST... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jostler Posted March 18, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 25 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.39 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 16 Joined: 01/19/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted March 18, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said: To be saved one must be under the blood of Jesus Christ, and Jesus said that cannot happened till I drink this cup. Jesus obey the Heavenly Father he drank the cup of his afflictions, and he died on the Cross... That's why of one reason Jesus had to die, is so he can descend to the place of the dead in the heart of the earth , to invite everyone to believe in him, not only to Abraham and his offsprings with him. But to everyone before him, he died for all and everyone had to hear the Gospel to be judged according to believing or to rejecting it. The Gospel of Jesus Christ comes with the Heavenly Inheritance... And that's what happened, having believe, were on their way to their Heavenly Inheritance, with Jesus ahead and they follow... Everyone is saved by faith, if not how can the dead before Jesus Christ be saved when they heard the Gospel from Jesus Christ and believed in him when they were in Sheol... "Jesus said " the dead will hear my voice and raised first". Abraham, David....and others had known that they have to go to Sheol and wait for their Lord God as Jesus Christ to descend to Where they were and take them above in his Heavenly Inheritance. This cannot happened unless Jesus died first. He cannot descend with his body , he must die first. The spirit man does not stay with the dead body , he is seperated from his earthly body of flesh which is subject to decay.. FROM DUST TO DUST... no argument here. but I don't see how understanding clear Biblical teaching introduces any complexity about Jew and Gentile today. It's clear Hades was the place of the dead til His blood was finally shed. Understanding that is nothing more in my mind than clear explanation of the power and necessity of His blood. Now that the blood is shed Jew and Gentile are "one" in Him. That neither removes the "natural distinctives" of either one, nor does it nullify or transfer the promises made to "natural" Israel and those who actually carry Abraham's DNA. The "promise" still has two expressions, one promised to a natural line "as the sand of the seashore" and another promised to spiritual sons "as the stars of the sky". If there is any distinction it lies in the fact those who are of the literal, natural genetic descent from Abraham get to participate in both sides of the promise. No man has ever been saved apart from faith (a gift in itself) in the finished work of the Cross. And a Jew who rejects that today will lose out on BOTH sides of the promise. Both his natural inheritance and his spiritual one. As a gentile believer I have no right to expect a family plot of ground located in the physical nation - geography of Israel... those "promises" were not made to me. But they're still in full effect for "Israel" and ALL God's promises to Abraham will be fulfilled surely and completely...and eternally. I am not in any way slighted by understanding I'm not included in ALL of those...those that pertain to this three-dimensional realm. It's all gotten very confused by this horrific confusion introduced by "replacement theology" and conversely by "Jewish exceptionalism". On the one hand it has His people calling Him a liar by teaching His promises to Abraham somehow got transferred to the "Church" and Israel was rejected. And on the other a legitimate "Hebrew Roots" movement intended by Him to bring gentile saints into deeper understanding of the very Jewish nature of the Church and it's very Jewish worldview it's founded on. But what satan cannot prevent he will try to push to extremes...sending in his false "apostles" to push a works based salvation .."Judaizers" trying to drag believers back into bondage to a Law He fulfilled. The Truth is between the two extremes. Edited March 18, 2019 by Jostler 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uber Genius Posted March 18, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 36 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 657 Content Per Day: 0.33 Reputation: 244 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted March 18, 2019 Mike Licona in his work The Resurrection of Jesus, which is one of the most complete scholarly works on the subject in all of Christian scholarship to date, says, "“It seems best to regard this difficult text in Matthew as a poetic device added to communicate that the Son of God had died and that impending judgment awaited Israel.” Mike was then berated by the Fundamentalists for destroying the inerrancy of scripture for the above suggestion. Those individuals called leaders of the seminary where he taught and were able to get Licona fired without a hearing (Thanks Norm Geisler, for proving everything atheists say about Christians self-interest, childishness, and hypocrisy to be true). Mike was fired from Southern Evangelical Seminary and been ousted as apologetics coordinator for the North America Mission Board (NAMB). Mike wrote the following after years had passed and he had the opportunity to do additional research, "Since my book was published, I have found additional ancient reports that confirm this interpretation and others that cast doubt on it. Accordingly, I am presently undecided pertaining to how Matthew intended his readers to understand the saints raised at Jesus’ death. More research needs to be conducted. It’s a tough passage." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtletwo Posted March 18, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 35 Topic Count: 1,192 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 7,264 Content Per Day: 1.19 Reputation: 15,710 Days Won: 194 Joined: 07/15/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted March 18, 2019 9 hours ago, Jostler said: As a gentile believer I have no right to expect a family plot of ground located in the physical nation - geography of Israel... those "promises" were not made to me. But they're still in full effect for "Israel" and ALL God's promises to Abraham will be fulfilled surely and completely...and eternally. I am not in any way slighted by understanding I'm not included in ALL of those...those that pertain to this three-dimensional realm. It's all gotten very confused by this horrific confusion introduced by "replacement theology" and conversely by "Jewish exceptionalism". On the one hand it has His people calling Him a liar by teaching His promises to Abraham somehow got transferred to the "Church" and Israel was rejected. And on the other a legitimate "Hebrew Roots" movement intended by Him to bring gentile saints into deeper understanding of the very Jewish nature of the Church and it's very Jewish worldview it's founded on. But what satan cannot prevent he will try to push to extremes...sending in his false "apostles" to push a works based salvation .."Judaizers" trying to drag believers back into bondage to a Law He fulfilled. The Truth is between the two extremes. @Jostler I agree. I just wanted to say thanks for a clear and concise explanation. Bringing a balance in these matters is important. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frienduff thaylorde Posted March 18, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 17 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 13,256 Content Per Day: 5.34 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 62 Joined: 07/07/2017 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/25/1972 Share Posted March 18, 2019 43 minutes ago, turtletwo said: @Jostler I agree. I just wanted to say thanks for a clear and concise explanation. Bringing a balance in these matters is important. Its why by grace I keep it simple . exalt not , follow not the flesh of any man . Follow no jew or gentile . FOLLOW AND TRUST ONLY CHRIST and get fat on HIS SAYINGS . SISTER , you are LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVED . yep , now praise the LORD . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frienduff thaylorde Posted March 19, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 17 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 13,256 Content Per Day: 5.34 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 62 Joined: 07/07/2017 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/25/1972 Share Posted March 19, 2019 5 hours ago, SelahSong said: Shalom, Tzephanyahu. What an awesome study; thank you! Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. I believe that these bodies were the very souls of those that had passed on and were in heaven - - in Paradise. When Jesus was crucified, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom, meaning the way to Christ, and the Holy of Holies was open to all who chose to follow the One that paid the price for their sins. The crucifixion of Jesus Christ is the most momentous event that has ever been in history! I believe God allowed this appearance of the dead to show those who still did not believe, those who were spiritually dead, that Jesus was truly the Son of God!!! These souls went back to the people in Jerusalem and would be recognized by them! It would show everyone that He who was crucified was Jesus the Messiah, the Christ, the Savior of the world! I’m certain that at that moment, there were many that came alive spiritually as their eyes were opened. They saw the Christ on the cross, and they had the prophecy from the prophets of old. Today, we have God’s written Word! Hallelujah!! Selah And we know it means what It says . SO many scholars always want to allegoricalize things they don't believe . But we believe , don't we sister . WE believe as it says that saints actually did arise from the dead and people saw it too. Just as we know OUR LORD ROSE from the grave too. even that has been under attack by these world wise scholars . Its as I love to say , we believe as tiny children all the words in that bible . As a child . just believes . You put those hands up sister . Sure the wise will mock us , But we got Christ and we BELIEVE . OH what a joyous song this is to sing , let us all praise the King . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts