JoeCanada Posted March 7, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 74 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,238 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 669 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted March 7, 2019 2 hours ago, Jostler said: The way you broke that down matches my understanding perfectly. And it matches the parable of the wheat and tares. Once He had destroyed, systematically, verse by verse, all my pretty pre-trib sermons, I wondered at how I ever got so caught up in it. He actually showed me how it happened but that's a long story in itself :). But particularly with the parable of the tares and wheat, we can clearly see there is ONE major end time harvest. Peter clearly informed us at Pentecost that that end times harvest had begun. Peter presented that passage from Joel as being fulfilled before the eyes of those gathered to witness the first Baptism in the Spirit. We can discern from the OT types, found in the "harvest" references and the "firstfruits" offering, that the harvest has three phases...one harvest in three parts. A firstfruits offering to consecrate the harvest. Which is realized in Jesus resurrection and the resurrection of an unknown number of chosen OT saints.....a "sheaf" taken from the midst of a field and offered to God before the whole field is fully ripe ...it is taken from the earliest ripening grain in the field. After that comes the main harvest....a huge focused ingathering operation where all hands work dawn to dusk to bring in the crop. Almost simultaneously the "gleanings" are harvested....those parts of the harvest left in the corners of the field at the Lord's command, for the sake of the poor. But, the simple challenge to me was to wonder how I'd ever believed in a pre-trib rapture, when this parable makes it CLEAR, that the first to go are the TARES! Only after the tares are removed is the wheat gathered into the Master's barn. Matthew 13 covers all that in great detail, and Jesus Himself explains ALL the symbolic elements so we need not be confused about those. Careful reading and ultra-literal interpretation paint a pretty darn clear picture The above breakdown you shared also aligns perfectly with Rev 20 and the TWO resurrections outlined there.... Hi Jostler, Glory to God for opening your eyes to TRUTH. (Once He had destroyed, systematically, verse by verse, all my pretty pre-trib sermons, I wondered at how I ever got so caught up in it.) In 1 Cor 15:22-23, we see an account of the first two harvests; the First Fruits Harvest and the Primary Harvest: "In Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the First Fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming"...(the Primary Harvest) Then in Rev 20:5-6, we are shown the Primary Harvest and the Gleanings Harvest: "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the Word of God, AND those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for 1000 years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first (Protos, meaning first or primary) resurrection" This secondary resurrection, "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.".......includes all the rest of the dead, both righteous and unrighteous, and will happen after the millennium. This is the Gleanings Harvest. So, this is in keeping with the Harvest and it's three phases. First Fruits Harvest....Christ and those He presented to YHWH as an offering (Old Testament saints) Primary Harvest.....All those who have died in Christ, and those alive in Christ....Resurrection and Rapture (after the opening of the 6th seal) Gleanings Harvest....This harvest will be at the end of the 1000 year millennium, and will include all who repent and died in Christ in the final time of the 70th week (after the Rapture) and all the repentant Jews and Gentiles who die in Jesus during the 1000 year millennium, as well as all the unrighteous dead throughout all the ages. We only disagree on the timing of the Gleanings Harvest. If we allude to the Hebrew Harvest in three parts, then we need to look at the Harvest at the end of the millennium, and see if this could indeed be the Gleanings Harvest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jostler Posted March 8, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 25 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 16 Joined: 01/19/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted March 8, 2019 (edited) 15 hours ago, JoeCanada said: Hi Jostler, Glory to God for opening your eyes to TRUTH. (Once He had destroyed, systematically, verse by verse, all my pretty pre-trib sermons, I wondered at how I ever got so caught up in it.) In 1 Cor 15:22-23, we see an account of the first two harvests; the First Fruits Harvest and the Primary Harvest: "In Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the First Fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming"...(the Primary Harvest) Then in Rev 20:5-6, we are shown the Primary Harvest and the Gleanings Harvest: "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the Word of God, AND those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for 1000 years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first (Protos, meaning first or primary) resurrection" This secondary resurrection, "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.".......includes all the rest of the dead, both righteous and unrighteous, and will happen after the millennium. This is the Gleanings Harvest. So, this is in keeping with the Harvest and it's three phases. First Fruits Harvest....Christ and those He presented to YHWH as an offering (Old Testament saints) Primary Harvest.....All those who have died in Christ, and those alive in Christ....Resurrection and Rapture (after the opening of the 6th seal) Gleanings Harvest....This harvest will be at the end of the 1000 year millennium, and will include all who repent and died in Christ in the final time of the 70th week (after the Rapture) and all the repentant Jews and Gentiles who die in Jesus during the 1000 year millennium, as well as all the unrighteous dead throughout all the ages. We only disagree on the timing of the Gleanings Harvest. If we allude to the Hebrew Harvest in three parts, then we need to look at the Harvest at the end of the millennium, and see if this could indeed be the Gleanings Harvest. I actually mis-stated my understanding of the gleanings. I agree that the gleanings are the "harvest" at the end of the millennium. What I *meant* to imply is that the gleanings can begin as soon as the main harvest uncovers the "corners" of a field. But the real gleanings, even though that characterizes any who die in the millennial Kingdom, very few WILL die in the first few hundred years of it. Most of the transition from this life to the next in that age will happen right near the very end. The fact there are so few deaths in the early centuries of the Millennial reign which 'compresses' the remainder of the harvest into the last century or two is part of what fulfills the picture of "gleanings" (IMO ) But, I do not see evidence of Biblical support for the idea a rapture occurs at His return. There is another way to see every other verse people use to "see" a rapture occurring at that time. I am personally convinced Rev 20:4-5's description of the first resurrection is definitive and complete. AFAIK there is no general resurrection at His coming ...that first resurrection appears to be limited to the martyrs alone. Edit to add: Good grief I can make a mouthful of mush out of something simple Suffice it to say we are in agreement about the gleanings I also believe that describes the final portion of the harvest at the end of the Millennium Edited March 8, 2019 by Jostler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted March 8, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,987 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 2,517 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 8, 2019 17 hours ago, Jostler said: Just one little nit pick...and it may not really matter. But the day satan is incarcerated in the pit (at Jesus return) is not quite the end of satan and his activity. It's a 1000 year interruption, but he is released to deceive the nations one last time at the end of the thousand years. This incarceration is limited....only a thousand years. At the end of the Millennial Reign he will be released one last time. And for a purpose. Understanding why a loving God would release satan on mankind again.....with all the devastation, loss and destruction that will mean...is very enlightening. There will be one final rebellion. Amazing as it sounds, but in a Kingdom with a PERFECT government from the King on down through subordinate kings, judges, peace officers, Mayors of cities right on down to the dog catcher. All unbribable, incorruptible, incapable of perverting justice. In a reign where the earth itself is restored to Eden-like peace. Where animals are all once again herbivores....no longer devouring one another to live. In an age where human life spans will return to something similar to pre-flood spans, where disease is virtually unknown.....men will still harbor rebellion in their hearts. This Kingdom is the FINAL proof that rebellion rules the heart of fallen man, even in a season when the environment is perfectly safe, perfectly just and any attempts to pervert justice are quickly subdued by an iron scepter, proceeding from His Throne in Jerusalem, and enforced by a government system as perfect as He is. Men will still rebel and will not be able to say the devil made me do it. satan will be released one last time to REVEAL for all to see, for all eternity, what is in the heart of fallen man, apart from the blood of Jesus. I agree that the end of Satan isn't until after his 1000 year incarceration. It is his kingdom that is destroyed at the return of Christ and I don't ever see it returning to what it was. We read in Rev 12:9 that Satan and his angels were thrown down to earth but in Rev 20:1-3, we only hear of Satan being cast into jail. We are told that one of his angels, the beast, is cast into the lake of fire. So while Satan may again lead a rebellion of the unrighteous against the righteous, his kingdom and its exercise of dominion over the earth is destroyed when Jesus returns. Based on your explanation of the last day being the millennial kingdom, I do now see that that is more likely what Jesus was referring to in John 6, the time of restoration. The last day of Satan's kingdom is more of an aspect of ushering in the last 1000 year day. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted March 8, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,987 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 2,517 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 8, 2019 13 hours ago, Jostler said: But, I do not Biblical support for the idea a rapture occurs at His return. There is another way to see every other verse people use to "see" a rapture occurring at that time. I am personally convinced Rev 20:4-5's description of the first resurrection is definitive and complete. AFAIK there is no general resurrection at His coming ...that first resurrection appears to be limited to the martyrs alone. We definitely know that those who were victorious over the mark and image will be raised immortal when Christ returns, the great many of which will have been martyred. That much is plainly stated. When taken in conjunction with 1 Corinthians 15:23, the rest of those who are Christ's will also put on immortality at His coming. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24 Spiritual martyrs. Those who have denied themselves and taken up their cross to follow Jesus. The first resurrection does appear to be limited to martyrs, both physical and spiritual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jostler Posted March 9, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 25 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 16 Joined: 01/19/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted March 9, 2019 8 hours ago, Last Daze said: We definitely know that those who were victorious over the mark and image will be raised immortal when Christ returns, the great many of which will have been martyred. That much is plainly stated. When taken in conjunction with 1 Corinthians 15:23, the rest of those who are Christ's will also put on immortality at His coming. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24 Spiritual martyrs. Those who have denied themselves and taken up their cross to follow Jesus. The first resurrection does appear to be limited to martyrs, both physical and spiritual. That idea of "spiritual martyrs" is one I have considered and I have to admit the possibility. I tend toward extreme literalism in interpretation so I personally tend to discount the idea for now. But, as I've studied eternal judgement, it's quite clear God is almost looking for excuses to reward His people for faithful service too In some ways He's got a bookkeeping system tied to accountancy that would make Enron blush So He just might have included a spiritual element with the concept of martyrdom. I do have a few reasons to question the presence of a transformation of the living at His return in Rev 19 though. I guess the main one being I can't find any evidence of two "twinkling of an eye" transformations and the one I can see pretty clearly fits at the end of the Millennium. Which is also in keeping with my ultra-literal interpretation of Rev 20. So I currently take a pretty hard line but remain committed to keeping myself open to new information as well. My current understanding is based on (in part) a pretty different understanding of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:52: Quote 1Co 15:51-52 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Quote 1Th 4:14-18 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. ¶ For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. I know many understand this as occurring at His second coming as portrayed in Revelation 19. Some believe it's evidence of a pre-trib rapture. I think it probably actually refers to Father's "coming" at the end of the Millennium. That requires understanding the "last trump" as a herald signalling Father's coming and the general resurrection identified as the second resurrection in Rev 20. So it fits as far as that goes. There's quite a lot more that supports that interpretation I've discovered over the years, but I know it must sound odd given that most popular interpretations don't come close to that. I don't have a lot of time atm or I'd try to go into a bit more detail... i trust if it is important He'll make opportunity for that discussion as well. Referring back to your restatement of the idea satan's kingdom is fundamentally destroyed by Jesus' return I completely agree with that. I don't see his release at the end of the millennium to sponsor that one final rebellion as a restoration of his kingdom at all. Just a final hissy fit from a defeated rebel that God allows for the purpose of publicly exposing what He already knows is in men's hearts. That final rebellion appears to be pretty much crushed before it can actually fire a shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted March 9, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 66 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,599 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,355 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 9, 2019 On 3/7/2019 at 9:29 AM, Jostler said: There is a second clearly defined Biblical definition of a day and that is a 1000 year long prophetic day. I think this, "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." is a simile. Mainly because it's likened in both directions; a day=thousand years, thousand years=a day, and we see the word "as", denoting a simile. This doesn't make them equal nor does it demand the Lord sees one day as thousand years, it's a rhetorical device, a figure of speech. But the above verse is a paraphrase from here: "A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night." - Psalm 90:4 Since I cannot say a day in the Lord's sight is both a thousand years and 2 to 4 hours, the only conclusion is this is a simile, meaning time is meaningless to the Lord, it's all the same span to the immortal, an hour, a day, a millennium; He is outside of time. I'm not saying there isn't truth to what you say, it could be, I just don't see established fact in this. I think if this were the case as a prophetic truth regarding timing we would see a bit more evidence of this concept concerning the end of the age. What we do see is this: “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. So you also, when you see these things happening, know that it is near—at the doors! Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." Mark 13 It could be a specific span of time, I'll grant that, but it's not what we are told. It's conditions we are told to discern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jostler Posted March 9, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 25 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 16 Joined: 01/19/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted March 9, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Diaste said: I think this, "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." is a simile. Mainly because it's likened in both directions; a day=thousand years, thousand years=a day, and we see the word "as", denoting a simile. This doesn't make them equal nor does it demand the Lord sees one day as thousand years, it's a rhetorical device, a figure of speech. But the above verse is a paraphrase from here: "A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night." - Psalm 90:4 Since I cannot say a day in the Lord's sight is both a thousand years and 2 to 4 hours, the only conclusion is this is a simile, meaning time is meaningless to the Lord, it's all the same span to the immortal, an hour, a day, a millennium; He is outside of time. I'm not saying there isn't truth to what you say, it could be, I just don't see established fact in this. I think if this were the case as a prophetic truth regarding timing we would see a bit more evidence of this concept concerning the end of the age. What we do see is this: “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. So you also, when you see these things happening, know that it is near—at the doors! Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." Mark 13 It could be a specific span of time, I'll grant that, but it's not what we are told. It's conditions we are told to discern. I am in full agreement with the belief that God stands apart from the time He created and is master of it in EVERY respect. But there is considerable evidence that He has divided His plan for human history into theologically significant 1000 year days with the first 6 "days" representing man's "lease" on His 3-D creation and a 7th "rest day". There are actually significant correlations between each 24 hr day of the 6 days of creation and each of the six 1000 year days. But that's a long sermon too Seeing that doesn't "violate" the understanding that He's fully in control of and unaffected by time Himself in any way. The study of time by science so far has begun to reveal much more of its characteristics now and it's a fascinating topic even from a secular/scientific point of view. But I also agree with your understanding of the fig tree...I think that truly is more about identifying significant events and being alert to them than it is about defining precise time frames in terms of months and years. (though it does do some of that to a degree ) Edited March 9, 2019 by Jostler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted March 9, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 66 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,599 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,355 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Jostler said: I am in full agreement with the belief that God stands apart from the time He created and is master of it in EVERY respect. But there is considerable evidence that He has divided His plan for human history into theologically significant 1000 year days with the first 6 "days" representing man's "lease" on His 3-D creation and a 7th "rest day". There are actually significant correlations between each 24 hr day of the 6 days of creation and each of the six 1000 year days. But that's a long sermon too Seeing that doesn't "violate" the understanding that He's fully in control of and unaffected by time Himself in any way. The study of time by science so far has begun to reveal much more of its characteristics now and it's a fascinating topic even from a secular/scientific point of view. But I also agree with your understanding of the fig tree...I think that truly is more about identifying significant events and being alert to them than it is about defining precise time frames in terms of months and years. (though it does do some of that to a degree ) I typically reject "there is considerable evidence that He has divided His plan for human history into theologically significant 1000 year days" out of hand. Care to share this evidence and maybe change my mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jostler Posted March 9, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 25 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 16 Joined: 01/19/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted March 9, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Diaste said: I typically reject "there is considerable evidence that He has divided His plan for human history into theologically significant 1000 year days" out of hand. Care to share this evidence and maybe change my mind? I will give it a shot friend. I'm in a battle for time atm....one He has appointed so it's not exactly a bad one But I'm in a season where there's more to do than hours in a day. I'll do my best to put something together as soon as He brings that up to the top of whatever priority list He manages to get through my thick head Edit to add: I also have a concern about drifting too far from Last Daze's intent for the thread. My conviction that he began this thread as a result of a direct leading from God is strong, and I want to be sure to not interfere with how He is directing Last Daze to proceed with it. Edited March 9, 2019 by Jostler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted March 9, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,987 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 2,517 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 9, 2019 12 hours ago, Jostler said: That idea of "spiritual martyrs" is one I have considered and I have to admit the possibility. I tend toward extreme literalism in interpretation so I personally tend to discount the idea for now. But, as I've studied eternal judgement, it's quite clear God is almost looking for excuses to reward His people for faithful service too In some ways He's got a bookkeeping system tied to accountancy that would make Enron blush So He just might have included a spiritual element with the concept of martyrdom. I'm not sure that physical martyrdom can be separated from spiritual martyrdom. As I see it, the decision to choose physical death rather than deny the faith is an extension of a life of spiritual martyrdom. I'm not sure that you can have the former without the latter. Something to think consider. 12 hours ago, Jostler said: That requires understanding the "last trump" as a herald signalling Father's coming and the general resurrection identified as the second resurrection in Rev 20. Is there any mention of such a trumpet in the OT? I'd be interested in your thoughts on this thread: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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