Tzephanyahu Posted March 16, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,625 Content Per Day: 0.79 Reputation: 2,033 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/10/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted March 16, 2019 7 minutes ago, thomas t said: biblical comfort zone Shalom brother, Again, you raise some great points here. So what I mean to say is rather than say "the Bible says..." we should be more personable in apologetics. For any such proof to a non-believer is, in general, laughable if it starts with "The Bible Says...". In the same way, we cannot really expect to capture their attention by saying "Answersingenesis proves..." or that "Creationist Kent Hovind says..." Look at it this way. Imagine a Muslim was trying to convince you allah was real and said "The Quran says..." or "islamproof website writes...". Immediately, the evidence is tarnished with the very bias that the non-believer is confronting. So, how do we approach such people? We should approach them as they are on their level and with their reasoning skills. When I have spoken with non-believers about God, I make it clear I believe the Bible 100%, end to end. Yet, when I converse with them, I don't use Scripture, I use reason, logic and highlight (POLITELY) the flaws in the alternative views. Eventually, I tend to ask them more questions than they ask me, provoking them to question their own, seemingly, concrete views. This method seems effective. think the trick is to scratch their brain and make them re-evaluate what they thought they knew about Christianity. Paradoxically, I don't think this can be done with Scripture at first because it's like their "walls" immediately go up. Again, I'm not talking about witnessing here but specifically apologetics. Finally, another mandatory element for effective apologetics is research. You have to know your stuff or be able to cite it when appropriate. This can only be done by the hard graft of studying and searching for evidence to answer common objections - scientifically - such things speak volumes to non-believers in apologetics. As for moral apologetics, we need to express the Bible view in stories or analogies to make the beauty of God's messages and love immediately clear and relatable. I'm attempting this at the moment on my website and started with the most common objection of Evolution. I thought, if you can prove Noah's Flood (another common objection), it would disprove evolution, as both theories cannot co-exist. So I developed several pages of evidence - for a non-believer - proving the likelihood of Noah's Flood using sources such as Scientific American, Wallstreet Journal, Science Journals, BBC, NASA etc. These are hard sources for a non-believer to argue with, whereas Scripture and Christian sources remain laughable. You can see it here if you want. https://faithandtheword.com/book-a/idb/mind/real-argument/. On the moral front, I have used short stories to explain different matters like "the fear of God and the love of God", an example is here if you are interested: https://faithandtheword.com/book-a/idb/heart/roots/hughie/ 34 minutes ago, thomas t said: one atheist currently can't post Hmm, maybe she wrote something that broke the rules? Maybe message the Moderator, George, to investigate? Love & Shalom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas t Posted March 16, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 46 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 944 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 170 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/05/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/20/1980 Author Share Posted March 16, 2019 Hi Tzephanyahu again, yeah it's nice to read your words, 4 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said: So what I mean to say is rather than say "the Bible says..." we should be more personable in apologetics. this is certainly how it should look like. I personally started to believe in God because I didn't have anything else to believe in: Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:3. Poor, yeah that's me ?. 5 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said: So, how do we approach such people? We should approach them as they are on their level and with their reasoning skills. yeah, why not. They're not unintelligent, however... so I certainly need to give my best.. 5 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said: When I have spoken with non-believers about God, I make it clear I believe the Bible 100%, end to end. Yet, when I converse with them, I don't use Scripture, I use reason, logic and highlight (POLITELY) the flaws in the alternative views. Eventually, I tend to ask them more questions than they ask me, provoking them to question their own, seemingly, concrete views. This method seems effective. think the trick is to scratch their brain and make them re-evaluate what they thought they knew about Christianity. That seems certainly to be the best way. I'll surely look up your site. Best Regards, Thomas 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas t Posted March 17, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 46 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 944 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 170 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/05/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/20/1980 Author Share Posted March 17, 2019 (edited) On 3/16/2019 at 1:14 PM, Tzephanyahu said: You can see it here if you want. https://faithandtheword.com/book-a/idb/mind/real-argument/. On the moral front, I have used short stories to explain different matters like "the fear of God and the love of God", an example is here if you are interested: https://faithandtheword.com/book-a/idb/heart/roots/hughie/ Hi Tzephanyahu, thank you very much for all your work and great passion for apologetics, I'm convinced we need people like you. As you go into great detail on your site... I think your approach is great. It's a great approach, making them rethink what they say. Just for reasons of not having much time I permitted myself to not go through the details presented on your page... If non-believers claim things disproved the Bible, then the onus is on them and I try to show that their arguments do not stand to reason, in my opinion. Normally I try to let the Bible speak so they come to faith, I suppose. So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ Romans 10:17. As you say, we shouldn't be circular in reasoning, but a nice Bible verse here and there...? --- For some this may have sounded off-topic. But I think it does fit the title. The more we speak to non-believers in a good manner the more we show God is interested in everyone. He lets his sun shine for everyone. I'm very much looking forward to seeing some apologetics from your part. God loves everyone, so we should speak to everyone and be open to everyone. Have a good Sunday, Thomas Edited March 17, 2019 by thomas t I shortened my post a bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzephanyahu Posted March 17, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,625 Content Per Day: 0.79 Reputation: 2,033 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/10/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted March 17, 2019 9 minutes ago, thomas t said: I'm only saying this is my approach. You try a different one, and I think it's great. It's a great approach, making them rethink what they say. Just for reasons of saving time I personally only try to get a draw with them. Shalom my brother, Praise Yahweh! Many methods are needed and no one will be do the exact same thing (where would be the point in that?). I'm confident that this could well be your calling brother. May the Father bless your debates with detractors richly, in the name of Yahushua, for His Glory. Thanks for taking time to look at the website. Love & Shalom 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas t Posted March 18, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 46 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 944 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 170 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/05/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/20/1980 Author Share Posted March 18, 2019 19 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said: your debates with detractors Hi Tzephanyahu, thank you for your very encouraging post. Yeah, go ahead with your website! Let me quick write something about the debates. there are detractors, that's for sure. But I never know the intentions of the ones asking. Let me give you an example: before I converted, I friend of mine said religion only satisfied the needs of the faithful and everything was made up. According to him. Is this mocking? After my conversion, I told the same friend about it, and he said "congrats!". If he would be a real detractor he wouldn't have said so, I think, as the conversion is the heart of the walk in Christ, as I see it. However his argument can be used as mocking. Even if a discussion partner appears to be a scoffer for some, I generally try to resond on the subject level. There are also many silent readers who could have the same argument in their minds without having any bad intentions. I really appreciate you accepting different methods of defending the Gospel, as it should be, Regards, Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzephanyahu Posted March 18, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,625 Content Per Day: 0.79 Reputation: 2,033 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/10/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted March 18, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, thomas t said: Is this mocking? Shalom my brother, It's enjoyable conversing with you as always... Well the way I see it is that there are two basic types of detractors. 1. Those who defend their own beliefs and/or disparage yours for the sake of stability. These people, who are concerned with the existential crisis that comes with accepting belief in God, are not mockers. They might say things in mockery or laugh at our answers. However, if they respond with reasonable and challenging questions (even in jest) - excellent! Such people should be engaged. Ultimately, they are interested to learn. 2. Those who defend their own beliefs and/or disparage yours for the sake of humour. These people, who are concerned with pleasing others and making them laugh at whatever cost, are mockers. They will be likely to respond rudely, crudely and with implied knowledge on their part. If they take what is sacred and personal to you and trample upon it, which any smart human can notice, I see it as wiser to leave them alone. Not just for their sake (as it gives occasion for them to build up more idle words for judgement!) but for others too, who may be shaken by the mocker's proud boasts. Ultimately, they do not appear interested in learning at all, only using the Christian for comedic fuel. Sometimes silence, love and peace speak louder to these types. Here is my article on mockery in debate if you're utterly bored one day! https://faithandtheword.com/mockery/ That's just me. But it could be that you have a talent to reach the second party also. 1 hour ago, thomas t said: I really appreciate you accepting different methods of defending the Gospel, as it should be Absolutely! Our God is a living God and He gives us each wisdom to serve Him in different ways, for different cultures and at different times. It may be where my style fails that yours succeeds, and vice versa. It could be that we may even work together one day, complimenting each other's styles. HalleluYah! To say "no, no, it must be done this way and using these words!" is both close minded and not understanding of the power of God. He doesn't want an army of robots! I'm sure He would have us learn from each other and still keep our own "grooves", to serve Him as one family. Serving in unity but in diverse manners. Praise Yahweh! Love & Shalom Edited March 18, 2019 by Tzephanyahu 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas t Posted March 19, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 46 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 944 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 170 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/05/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/20/1980 Author Share Posted March 19, 2019 (edited) Hi Tzephanyahu, thank you very much for your thoughtful reply. it is my personal impression that real detractors are rare. Foremost it is the scholars of the mainline churches, at least here in Germany. They say they aren't anti-God, but then they come up saying that science and mordern research - they call it biblical research - would disprove part of what Bible says. At least this is how I understand them. Then, in my opinion, we should speak up. These are real detractors I think. The seconed group are the ones like Richard Dawkins, atheists that go beyond the simple truth that they don't belive in God. They say that, according to them, there is no God. 21 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said: 2. Those who defend their own beliefs and/or disparage yours for the sake of humour. But, my friends, for example, they just happen to not believe in God and always used to make fun of my belief system after my conversion. But as long as they just make jokes about what I believe and about some habits the faithful have... no problem, I think. However, when they make fun of the very person presented as God by the Bible, this is dangerous I think. Then they "cross a threashold" and we should speak up again. Same applies when Christianity as a whole is ridiculed, I think. If you have time, see this post please, which is also about dealing with that. I really thank God to have found a person with such an interest for apologetics. Great! Thomas Edited March 19, 2019 by thomas t Link didn't open 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzephanyahu Posted March 19, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,625 Content Per Day: 0.79 Reputation: 2,033 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/10/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted March 19, 2019 50 minutes ago, thomas t said: However, when they make fun of the very person presented as God by the Bible, this is dangerous I think. Shalom bro, Yes, good point. When people speak against God and His anointed, they are storing up idle words to be used against them on that Great Day. So it is very dangerous for them (and those fooled by their words). I read your other post as well, thank you for linking it. There is part of me that wonders "should we stand up against such things", which is my idealistic side. And then there is another part of me that wonders "Isn't such mockery and disrespect prophesied to happen in the latter days?", which is my objective side. I admire your heart for this matter though, which is effectively like King David's heart when he wanted to fight for the honour of the Name of Yahweh in the face of the philistines. However, I once went on an Atheist forum to do such a thing, defending the Word with reason, science, logic and knowledge. That was a bad mistake though! Some people do not want to know the truth... So maybe it's wise to treat serious apologetic argument like a pearl before swine, in some instances. For we know that the Father has intentionally hardened the heart of some, blinded the eyes of others and deafened the ears of yet more. Such people will not accept the truth, even when it's proven. But, in we continue to push such people who do not wish to learn, we may be helping to harden their hearts inadvertently - for no one likes to admit their wrong, and even more so when they have passionately argued incorrectly. Thankfully the Father is incredibly gracious regarding these insults from Atheists. The Messiah said that anything spoken against the Father and the Son can be forgiven, but not if they blaspheme the Holy Spirit. It seems most angry atheists insult God or Jesus, it's rare to hear them disrespect the Holy Spirit. If they do this, there is more danger than ever before! Love & Shalom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas t Posted March 19, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 46 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 944 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 170 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/05/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/20/1980 Author Share Posted March 19, 2019 Hi Tzephanyahu, again you make so many good points: 5 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said: I read your other post as well, thank you for linking it. There is part of me that wonders "should we stand up against such things", which is my idealistic side. And then there is another part of me that wonders "Isn't such mockery and disrespect prophesied to happen in the latter days?", which is my objective side. we can say our opinion. When there a racists in town, I for one used to participate in rallies against them every once in a while. There is also God-related enmity that, in my opinion, can be compared to racism in a sense. So we can rally for God, too. Even if it's prophesied. 5 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said: That was a bad mistake though! Maybe it was not the time for this... let's try to convince doubters here through arguments, first. I never know why they doubt so, as you say when you wonder about motives, I treat them with respect. 5 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said: [if] we continue to push such people who do not wish to learn, we may be helping to harden their hearts inadvertently Amen. Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzephanyahu Posted March 20, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,625 Content Per Day: 0.79 Reputation: 2,033 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/10/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted March 20, 2019 15 hours ago, thomas t said: Even if it's prophesied. Shalom brother, Haha, love your attitude. I'm sure the Father has plans for you in these times. I meant to share the below link in my last message but forgot. It's a documentary on the on-going battle between Evolutionists and Creationists, which you may find useful to refer to in your apologetics. I think you'll find it of interest and it's currently available to watch for free here. Love & Shalom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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