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Who are the Foolish Virgins


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14 hours ago, pinacled said:

What then had the foolish virgins ignored?

I look at the oil as "faith". They did not endure until the end. 

Thing is, the more you study and pray, the deeper your faith grows. If you just say the prayer of confession, get baptized, and go on your way, you become like the seed spread on shallow soil. You have no roots. But when the word takes root in you, the roots continue to grow ever stronger. 

And with no root, there is no "oil" left. 

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24 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

I look at the oil as "faith". They did not endure until the end. 

Thing is, the more you study and pray, the deeper your faith grows. If you just say the prayer of confession, get baptized, and go on your way, you become like the seed spread on shallow soil. You have no roots. But when the word takes root in you, the roots continue to grow ever stronger. 

And with no root, there is no "oil" left. 

The "lamp" (as your initial post said) is "salvation". AND ALL 10 had these lamps! And, ALL 10 were said to be "virgins"! Salvation is based on faith, but apparently there is more to it than "just faith alone" - At least when it comes to the rapture. 

The issue is NOT that there was NO oil, but rather that they (the 5 foolish ones) did not have ENOUGH oil. Now, we are told that the tiniest amount faith is all that is necessary to move a mountain. You mentioned the "roots" taking hold and growing. Sure, the "milk" or basic tenets or actions of faith are necessary for "children" (new believers), but then what is meant by "meat" (solid food)? Is it just believing more? I don't think so. The root (pun intended) of the issue is "obedience". I know this word is taboo in most churches because they immediately start thinking "works based salvation", but even the NT and Revelation (prophecy FOR the followers of Jesus) overflow with references and implications associated with obedience. The further you get into Revelation, the more it seems to stress obedience. Going back to the "virgins", the foolish were told to go to the "market" and "buy" the extra oil they would need. The market is the churches(or the Word) and buying and selling refers to "instructions in righteousness". Obedience is not obtained with a mere thought, but rather learned through application. The great whore was said to once be a great "market place" with many "ships" (vessels that carried the cargo of precious gems, gold and silver plus many more). Notice the word "once". So, the great whore is actually what is left of the "Church" after the rapture. No more buying and selling, no more voices of the bride and groom (just read Rev. 18 below).

I like to use the imagery of NOT "SITTING ON A CHAIR", but rather coming to a bridge (salvation) and then either just sitting down right next to the bridge (faith alone) or having the courage to step onto that bridge and cross over to the other side (obedience). The 'commands' of Jesus and the apostles concerned first of all faith, but also obedience as expressed in our daily walk with (and IN) Christ.

How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

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The ones who thought they could live morally pure being acceptable to God without coming to Jesus for forgiveness of their sins... the works salvation bunch!

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The one thing that people forget is that the five foolish virgins did obtain oil for their lamps. So it is not faith or oil for anointing. One group was ready and the other group was not. Some are looking to deep for things that are not there.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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left behind but saved in the tribulation perhaps....

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"Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path" Psalm 119:105

What does a lamp need to illuminate the way? 

Jesus told the church of Laodicea "buy from me". Psalm 119 also says in vs. 160, "The sum of thy word is truth, and every one of your righteous ordinances is everlasting."      

There seems to be a sense in the parable that the Holy Spirit will not always dwell with men or be available. In the sense of convicting the world of sin. That interval when the Ark door was closed and then the rain came. And a reversal of sorts of the ascension and Pentecost, at which time the disciples had the Holy Spirit, earlier Jesus blew on them and said receive the Holy Spirit, but they needed to wait on the promise, the empowerment to be witnesses and make disciples. The reversal being the conviction of sin on the world will no longer be and the church proper as in spiritual gifts will no longer be poured out. The faithful virgins had the word and the illumination of the Holy Spirit knowing what to do. "When you see 'all' these things begin to happen, then look up for your redemption draws nigh."                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Jesus also told His disciples that He must go for the Holy Spirit to come, well, it's the same type interval, the Holy Spirit must go for Him to come. I repeat, not taken from His children, those that are born again and have the assurance of salvation. It's why people make the statement, "The time to get the oil is now."                                                    

Remember there are those who will claim to have done many things in Jesus name and He will say, "Depart from me, I never knew you."                                    

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2 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

The "lamp" (as your initial post said) is "salvation". AND ALL 10 had these lamps! And, ALL 10 were said to be "virgins"! Salvation is based on faith, but apparently there is more to it than "just faith alone" - At least when it comes to the rapture. 

The issue is NOT that there was NO oil, but rather that they (the 5 foolish ones) did not have ENOUGH oil. Now, we are told that the tiniest amount faith is all that is necessary to move a mountain. You mentioned the "roots" taking hold and growing. Sure, the "milk" or basic tenets or actions of faith are necessary for "children" (new believers), but then what is meant by "meat" (solid food)? Is it just believing more? I don't think so. The root (pun intended) of the issue is "obedience". I know this word is taboo in most churches because they immediately start thinking "works based salvation", but even the NT and Revelation (prophecy FOR the followers of Jesus) overflow with references and implications associated with obedience. The further you get into Revelation, the more it seems to stress obedience. Going back to the "virgins", the foolish were told to go to the "market" and "buy" the extra oil they would need. The market is the churches(or the Word) and buying and selling refers to "instructions in righteousness". Obedience is not obtained with a mere thought, but rather learned through application. The great whore was said to once be a great "market place" with many "ships" (vessels that carried the cargo of precious gems, gold and silver plus many more). Notice the word "once". So, the great whore is actually what is left of the "Church" after the rapture. No more buying and selling, no more voices of the bride and groom (just read Rev. 18 below).

I like to use the imagery of NOT "SITTING ON A CHAIR", but rather coming to a bridge (salvation) and then either just sitting down right next to the bridge (faith alone) or having the courage to step onto that bridge and cross over to the other side (obedience). The 'commands' of Jesus and the apostles concerned first of all faith, but also obedience as expressed in our daily walk with (and IN) Christ.

How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

I don't necessarily connect it to the rapture. I used to, but I've revised my thinking on the whole "revelation" narative regarding pre-, post-, mid-trib stuff. There is no doubt that many of the things in revelation have already happened, but many have not. I've stopped trying to second guess the whole thing and choose to make sure I have oil in my lamp, even if I die before any of it happens.

Edited by Still Alive
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Well, if the Virgins of Matthew 25 are the church, then the church got a downgrade from bride of Messiah to bridesmaids.  No, the story is commentary on Ezekiel 20:33-38 as well as other passages regarding judging the Hebrew people who come thru the tribulation period.    Just like the sheep and goat judgment of Matthew 25 is a discourse on Joel 3.... judging the nations that come thru the tribulation period.

Some like to use the Virgins story to guilt trip fellow believers.  That is sin, pure and simple.  One is either justified or not, and it is not the ability of any man to justify himself unto YHVH. There is no partial rapture nonsense since there is no partial justification, and the story of the Virgins has nothing to do with a rapture.

As much as some would like, not everything Yeshua taught about the end times is related to the church. We can learn a lot from the various discourses, but that doesn't mean all of them apply directly to us.

Edited by OldCoot
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11 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Well, if the Virgins of Matthew 25 are the church, then the church got a downgrade from bride of Messiah to bridesmaids.  No, the story is commentary on Ezekiel 20:33-38 as well as other passages regarding judging the Hebrew people who come thru the tribulation period.    Just like the sheep and goat judgment of Matthew 25 is a discourse on Joel 3.... judging the nations that come thru the tribulation period.

Some like to use the Virgins story to guilt trip fellow believers.  That is sin, pure and simple.  One is either justified or not, and it is not the ability of any man to justify himself unto YHVH. There is no partial rapture nonsense since there is no partial justification, and the story of the Virgins has nothing to do with a rapture.

As much as some would like, not everything Yeshua taught about the end times is related to the church. We can learn a lot from the various discourses, but that doesn't mean all of them apply directly to us.

The end of Matt 24 (vs 30-31) definitely speaks of the 2nd coming. Verse 32 starts out with a NEW thought that goes back in time to BEFORE the final tribulation begins. The fig tree parable ties in with the FINAL generation that will experience the tribulation and 2nd coming. Verse 38 equates it with Noah's flood. Verse 40-41 speaks of two women working at the mill. Verse 43 ties to the Luke parable of the "good man of the house" watching and entails also the telling of others (the preachers congregation). Verse 49 is very interesting - this servant (church leader/teacher) "smites his fellow servants" and even "eats and drinks with the drunken". Smiting ties in with "striking in the mouth" which means preventing from speaking and "drunken" is NOT referring to physical drunkenness but rather relates to those who are "asleep" and saying "all things will be the same as yesterday … NO, even better". This is a "spiritual" drunkenness that many Christians today have fallen into - the same drunkenness described in Rev 17 & 18 (the left behind Christians). 

Verse 51 says they are thrown into the "place of weeping and gnashing of teeth" along with the "hypocrites". This "timeframe" is the final tribulation right before the 2nd coming. EVERYWHERE it is used in the Bible will be the SAME. "Gnashing of teeth" (as the Bible describes it) refers to "mockers" and REJECTION of the truth. Luke 13:24-28 tells us the door to heaven is SHUT after the rapture and those still outside are cast into the "place of weeping and gnashing of teeth". 

Chapter 25 starts out by saying "then shall the KOH be like unto 10 virgins". So, depending on your eschatological position, you will say it either refers to the tribulation period AFTER the rapture OR the CHURCH right before the RAPTURE. Next, is the "talents" parable where the master leaves "his servants" FOR A LONG TIME. DaPuppers did well to write the lengthy report of how the KOH refers to the START of the Church Age (1st century), so we see the lapsing of now almost 2000 years and NOT just a few, as would be the case if these verses were referring to 3-7 years of tribulation. Matt 25:30 casts the "wicked & slothful" servant into the "place of weeping and gnashing of teeth". 

Verse 31 specifies the 2nd coming in the words "when the Son of man (Jesus) shall come in his glory, and the angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne". This now speaks of the sheep and goat judgment concerning "everlasting punishment and life eternal" and the entrance into the millennial kingdom.

NOW, WHAT is MISSING FROM THAT LAST PARAGRAPH? The phrase "weeping and gnashing of teeth". It is never used in reference to the judgments that come AFTER the 2nd coming.

 

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36 minutes ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

The end of Matt 24 (vs 30-31) definitely speaks of the 2nd coming. Verse 32 starts out with a NEW thought that goes back in time to BEFORE the final tribulation begins. The fig tree parable ties in with the FINAL generation that will experience the tribulation and 2nd coming. Verse 38 equates it with Noah's flood. Verse 40-41 speaks of two women working at the mill. Verse 43 ties to the Luke parable of the "good man of the house" watching and entails also the telling of others (the preachers congregation). Verse 49 is very interesting - this servant (church leader/teacher) "smites his fellow servants" and even "eats and drinks with the drunken". Smiting ties in with "striking in the mouth" which means preventing from speaking and "drunken" is NOT referring to physical drunkenness but rather relates to those who are "asleep" and saying "all things will be the same as yesterday … NO, even better". This is a "spiritual" drunkenness that many Christians today have fallen into - the same drunkenness described in Rev 17 & 18 (the left behind Christians). 

Verse 51 says they are thrown into the "place of weeping and gnashing of teeth" along with the "hypocrites". This "timeframe" is the final tribulation right before the 2nd coming. EVERYWHERE it is used in the Bible will be the SAME. "Gnashing of teeth" (as the Bible describes it) refers to "mockers" and REJECTION of the truth. Luke 13:24-28 tells us the door to heaven is SHUT after the rapture and those still outside are cast into the "place of weeping and gnashing of teeth". 

Chapter 25 starts out by saying "then shall the KOH be like unto 10 virgins". So, depending on your eschatological position, you will say it either refers to the tribulation period AFTER the rapture OR the CHURCH right before the RAPTURE. Next, is the "talents" parable where the master leaves "his servants" FOR A LONG TIME. DaPuppers did well to write the lengthy report of how the KOH refers to the START of the Church Age (1st century), so we see the lapsing of now almost 2000 years and NOT just a few, as would be the case if these verses were referring to 3-7 years of tribulation. Matt 25:30 casts the "wicked & slothful" servant into the "place of weeping and gnashing of teeth". 

Verse 31 specifies the 2nd coming in the words "when the Son of man (Jesus) shall come in his glory, and the angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne". This now speaks of the sheep and goat judgment concerning "everlasting punishment and life eternal" and the entrance into the millennial kingdom.

NOW, WHAT is MISSING FROM THAT LAST PARAGRAPH? The phrase "weeping and gnashing of teeth". It is never used in reference to the judgments that come AFTER the 2nd coming.

 

I agree! The passage of Matthew 25, the timing is the second coming.  But the Kingdom of Heaven, what is it?  If one studies how Yeshua was constantly telling those around Him that the Kingdom of Heaven is near them, and looks at how it is viewed in the OT, it is speaking of the restoration of the Davidic Kingdom on earth with Yeshua reigning as king as promised to the patriarchs and King David.

In Matthew 23:37-39, Yeshua is lamenting how He wanted to gather all of the Hebrews together like a hen gathers and nurtures its chicks.  But they would have none of it.  So the offer of establishing the kingdom on earth is rescinded and now His Father's House (temple) is now their house and it is left to them desolate.  They would never see Him again until the corporate leadership of Israel acknowledged their offense and fulfills Hosea 5:14-15 and Psalms 118. 

Hosea 5:14-15 For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
And like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.

Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”

All of Matthew 24 and 25 show the consequences of that rejection and how it will all go down.  The references Yeshua uses are thoroughly Jewish.  The temple, the Shabbat, Mt of Olives (which overlooks the Valley of Jehoshaphat reference in Joel 3), Jerusalem, Judea, etc.   Nothing that would be of any consternation to the church if it was around. 

The virgins are those of the Hebrews who survive the tribulation period and are gathered from the nations and separated according to Ezekiel 20:33-38.  

The Sheep and Goat judgement is the nations all being gathered and passing before Yeshua's and their turn to be judged. It is a discourse on Joel 3.

Again, the church is not in view in either case.  If the church is the virgins, then the church has been demoted from bride to bridesmaid.  Not hardly

The sheep and goats are the nations.  They are being judged on how they treated Yeshua's brethren.  And from Joel 3 which talks about this, the brethren are clearly the Hebrew people.  But even if the brethren were to mean the church, the sheep and goats are still the nations.  No way to get out of that one.

Joel 3:1-2  “For behold, in those days and at that time, When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also divided up My land.

There will be Hebrews and those of the nations who will go into the Messianic kingdom.

Well, the term "weeping and gnashing of teeth" isn't mentioned in Revelation 20 GWTJ either, but I would be willing to bet those who are thrown into the lake of fire will not be having a party.   And that judgment is after the 1000 years and the rebellion stirred up when Satan is released.  

Just like "wrath" is not mentioned during the flood of Noah event, but from what happened, it sure seemed like YHVH was pouring out His wrath more than at any other time in history.  Even to wipe all life off the face of the earth except those He locked in the ark.

Folks should really avoid straining at a gnat over words used or not used and step back and look at the picture.

Edited by OldCoot
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