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The Hebrews Roots Movement


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23 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

It seems we are repeating.  I have shared my view that "the priesthood" was "changed" BACK to the original "firstborn" - of whom Yeshua Messiah is chief and we are part of His priesthood.

I have shared my view that the "first Tent" - that physical Tabernacle/Temple made with hands, was a symbolic prophecy, and will pass away when the forever Temple of God and the Lamb is our reality - here on earth. 

I thank you for the great dialog.  You have really helped me to understand the Hebrew Roots view. 

"I thank you for the great dialog.  You have really helped me to understand the Hebrew Roots view. "

It's been fun!

But my view is not "the Hebrew Roots view"....

There's a PLETHORA of views on eschatology....

blessings...

 

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2 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

I'm not persuaded that the Millennium is the "forever kingdom".  Rather, I think the "Millennium" is simply a 1000-year future phase in the ongoing history of man. 

There may well be additional phases subsequent to the Millennium.

I agree.

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2 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

But my view is not "the Hebrew Roots view"....

Really?  Is your view the Messianic view?  Or are there many Messianic views? 

Did you get my PM to you? 

 

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5 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Really?  Is your view the Messianic view?  Or are there many Messianic views? 

Did you get my PM to you? 

 

I'll check the PM!  I forget to check my PMs....

The "Messianic" branch of Christianity is a COLLECTION of MANY different views.

1. Hebrew Christianity is basically just Christianity with a few Hebrew words or songs thrown in for good measure....e.g., "Jews for Jesus", or Fruchtenbaum's "Israelology" book.  Some of these folks are dispensationalists, and they do NOT think the Torah has full ongoing application to us all (or even just to Jews), as believers.

2. Messianic Judaism (e.g, First Fruits of Zion, MJAA, UMJC, etc).  These folks think that JEWISH Christians should obey Torah....but they think that GENTILE Christians do NOT need to do so....

3. Messianic Israelism (my term) refers to those who understand that Jews AND Gentiles in Christ are ALL Israelites and should ALL grow in faithful Torah-obedience.  (e.g., J.K.Mckee, Tim Hegg, Mark Biltz, Bill Cloud, hebraicrootsnetwork.com, etc.)

 

And of course, eschatology is especially complex, and there is no single viewpoint within any of these three branches of the "messianic" branch of Christianity....eschatology is just too complex.

 

The correct position is #3.  It's the Biblical position.

Amazingly, there is no single person or group or organization or denomination responsible for the widespread growth in #3.....it's simply a move of the Spirit, as we return to truly authentic Biblical faith.

And it's happening all over the world!

Exciting times to be alive...

 

blessings...

 

 

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On 11/27/2019 at 1:26 PM, BibleGuy said:

Right....I think it's generally a "fringe" issue for most pastors across the country too.......it's still a bit "off the radar".....

Which is strange, given that Jesus taught us to obey all Torah (Mt.5:19).  Paul agrees (2Ti.3:16).  John agrees (1Jn.5:3).

 

My oh my!   Behold how we have drifted away from the 1st-century model of authentic Torah-obedient faith and practice!

THOUSANDS were zealous for Torah (Ac.21:20)....but now the church is widely opposed to it....

 

blessings...

 

I think it's a fringe issue because Christians don't follow the Torah. It's a fringe issue in the same way sacrificing animals is a fringe issue.

For what it's worth, I see much of the law of Moses as man-made and paralleling the laws applied to a lot of cultures of the day. Where it is from God is where it specifically says it is from God.

Edit: FWIW, Matthew 5:19 is Jesus teaching to Jews in a Jewish culture, before the existence of Christianity. He is confirming their law, and also pointing out (to any reasonable person listening at the time) how much of an exercise in futility it is to earn your way into eternity.

Scripture can only be interpreted when its context is carefully considered. And context includes the words around it, the chapters around it, and the time and place in which it was presented and even the audience at the time it was being presented.

Edited by Still Alive
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5 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

I think it's a fringe issue because Christians don't follow the Torah. It's a fringe issue in the same way sacrificing animals is a fringe issue.

Sounds like an overall fringy experience. 

1174632690_slaphappysmiley.gif.cfff330969d46e4c2c3766f81f1e047f.gifJust kidding, bro! I've been up since midnight, and this struck me as a bit humorous! 

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13 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

The "Messianic" branch of Christianity is a COLLECTION of MANY different views.

1. Hebrew Christianity is basically just Christianity with a few Hebrew words or songs thrown in for good measure....e.g., "Jews for Jesus", or Fruchtenbaum's "Israelology" book.  Some of these folks are dispensationalists, and they do NOT think the Torah has full ongoing application to us all (or even just to Jews), as believers.

2. Messianic Judaism (e.g, First Fruits of Zion, MJAA, UMJC, etc).  These folks think that JEWISH Christians should obey Torah....but they think that GENTILE Christians do NOT need to do so....

3. Messianic Israelism (my term) refers to those who understand that Jews AND Gentiles in Christ are ALL Israelites and should ALL grow in faithful Torah-obedience.  (e.g., J.K.Mckee, Tim Hegg, Mark Biltz, Bill Cloud, hebraicrootsnetwork.com, etc.)

Do the #1 people celebrate/commemorate the Feasts?  I am definitely NOT a "dispensationalist".  I don't believe in a "secret rapture" either. 

Re: #2  The Messianic UMJC synagogue I attended in Albuquerque years ago, taught that.  Only "Jewish Christians" should keep the Sabbath.  Crazy - IMO.

#3:  I agree completely that Jews and Gentiles "in Christ" are ALL Israelites.  Everyone - both Jew and Gentile, must be attached to the Olive Tree, nourished by Christ - the Holy Root.  All must strive to obey all 10 of the Covenant Commandments. 

I do NOT AGREE that the animal sacrifices are continued in the New Covenant.  I believe the "priesthood" has been "changed" BACK to "the firstborn".  (The sin of the golden calf having been washed away by Christ's death.)  All faithful Levites (in Christ) are included in the Melchizedek priesthood of the firstborn.  

What would that make me part of?  Guess I should have my own catagory - #4.  lol 

My mother raised me SDA.  I left that denomination 30 years ago.  The SDAs are big on the Day of Atonement being the start of an "investigative judgment" in Heaven, which began back in 1844.  Thing is.  Today no one at the church today even notices the Day of Atonement from year to year.  I was 40 years old when I learned that the "Last Supper" was a Passover meal.  Grief!  I felt very cheated.  Yeshua said, "I know my sheep."  No need to examine any heavenly record books to see who belong to Him. 

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4 hours ago, Still Alive said:

I think it's a fringe issue because Christians don't follow the Torah. It's a fringe issue in the same way sacrificing animals is a fringe issue.

For what it's worth, I see much of the law of Moses as man-made and paralleling the laws applied to a lot of cultures of the day. Where it is from God is where it specifically says it is from God.

Edit: FWIW, Matthew 5:19 is Jesus teaching to Jews in a Jewish culture, before the existence of Christianity. He is confirming their law, and also pointing out (to any reasonable person listening at the time) how much of an exercise in futility it is to earn your way into eternity.

Scripture can only be interpreted when its context is carefully considered. And context includes the words around it, the chapters around it, and the time and place in which it was presented and even the audience at the time it was being presented.

Hi!

"For what it's worth, I see much of the law of Moses as man-made and paralleling the laws applied to a lot of cultures of the day."

Well, then you have rejected the authority of Biblical Scripture.

After all, Scripture asserts that the written law of Moses is GOD's commands (not "man-made" commands).  1Ki.2:3.

 

"FWIW, Matthew 5:19 is Jesus teaching to Jews in a Jewish culture, before the existence of Christianity. "

And Jesus applies ALL those pre-cross instructions to ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

 

"He is confirming their law, and also pointing out (to any reasonable person listening at the time) how much of an exercise in futility it is to earn your way into eternity."

Rather, Jesus said His burden is EASY and LIGHT (Mt.5:19 + Mt.11:30), not "an exercise in futility".

Moses agrees it is NOT too difficult (Dt.30:11).

Luke agrees it is NOT too difficult (citing Elizabeth and Zacharias who obeyed ALL Torah, Lk.1:6).

After all, the Torah of Moses passes directly into the New Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16), so of COURSE believers should obey the Torah of the New Covenant in which they partake.

 

"Scripture can only be interpreted when its context is carefully considered. And context includes the words around it, the chapters around it, and the time and place in which it was presented and even the audience at the time it was being presented."

True....we must provide a consistent, comprehensive, Biblical theology....

 

blessings...

 

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36 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Do the #1 people celebrate/commemorate the Feasts?  I am definitely NOT a "dispensationalist".  I don't believe in a "secret rapture" either. 

Re: #2  The Messianic UMJC synagogue I attended in Albuquerque years ago, taught that.  Only "Jewish Christians" should keep the Sabbath.  Crazy - IMO.

#3:  I agree completely that Jews and Gentiles "in Christ" are ALL Israelites.  Everyone - both Jew and Gentile, must be attached to the Olive Tree, nourished by Christ - the Holy Root.  All must strive to obey all 10 of the Covenant Commandments. 

I do NOT AGREE that the animal sacrifices are continued in the New Covenant.  I believe the "priesthood" has been "changed" BACK to "the firstborn".  (The sin of the golden calf having been washed away by Christ's death.)  All faithful Levites (in Christ) are included in the Melchizedek priesthood of the firstborn.  

What would that make me part of?  Guess I should have my own catagory - #4.  lol 

My mother raised me SDA.  I left that denomination 30 years ago.  The SDAs are big on the Day of Atonement being the start of an "investigative judgment" in Heaven, which began back in 1844.  Thing is.  Today no one at the church today even notices the Day of Atonement from year to year.  I was 40 years old when I learned that the "Last Supper" was a Passover meal.  Grief!  I felt very cheated.  Yeshua said, "I know my sheep."  No need to examine any heavenly record books to see who belong to Him. 

Howdy!

 

"Do the #1 people celebrate/commemorate the Feasts?  I am definitely NOT a "dispensationalist".  I don't believe in a "secret rapture" either. "

Probably some do, probably some don't.  My guess is that most do NOT...except a portion might do Passover....

 

"Re: #2  The Messianic UMJC synagogue I attended in Albuquerque years ago, taught that.  Only "Jewish Christians" should keep the Sabbath.  Crazy - IMO."

Yes....crazy AND unbiblical!

 

"All must strive to obey all 10 of the Covenant Commandments. "

Yes.  And Commandment #1 entails ALL THE REST of the Torah of Moses....including Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah portions.

Jesus applies Dt. 6 to you (Mt.22:37)....which requires ALL Torah (Dt.6:5,25)....not merely the 10 commandments.

 

"I do NOT AGREE that the animal sacrifices are continued in the New Covenant. "

And I've pointed out that Levitical sacrifices CONTINUED with Paul (Ac.21), with THOUSANDS of 1st-century believers (Ac.21:20), with 1st-century animal-sacrificing priests (Ac.6:7)....

And they WILL be restored (Mal.3:4) to fulfill Sabbath (Is.66), the Davidic Covenant (Jer.33), Sukkot for all nations (Zec.14), the future temple (Eze.40-47) in the temple Yeshua will build (Zec.6), for ALL Israelites who will obey 100% of ALL Torah again (Dt.30:1-8).

After all, the Torah of Moses passes into the New Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16)....so OF COURSE Levitical service will resume.

Jesus desires sacrifices for people from all nations (Mk.11:17 citing Is.56:7)...so let's not terminate what Jesus desires to resume!

Yeshua applies ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) to ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20)....

So, your opposition to Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah puts you at risk of the bad side of Mt. 5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42....you don't need to do that.

When you see a tree, the shadow is STILL THERE TOO!  The shadow IS (present tense, Col.2:17;Heb.10:1) an ongoing Torah function.

 

" I believe the "priesthood" has been "changed" BACK to "the firstborn".  "

Then you just contradicted all the Scripture I just cited here....I urge you to embrace my position....

 

" (The sin of the golden calf having been washed away by Christ's death.) "

ALL sins are cleansed away (1Jn.1:7)...but we still obey ALL Torah (1Jn.2:3;5:3) as proof of our love for Him....no exceptions for Levitical service in 1Jn.5:3 or 2Ti.3:16 or 1Cor.7:19!

 

"All faithful Levites (in Christ) are included in the Melchizedek priesthood of the firstborn.  "

I don't think so...I've already shared with you why I think that's dubious...

 

"What would that make me part of?  Guess I should have my own catagory - #4.  lol "

Well, you now stand OPPOSED to select Torah portions....and as such, grave warnings apply to you (Mt.5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;Pr.30:6;Rev.22:18;Dt.4:2;12:32;Jos.1:7)....I don't think you want that category!

But hey....you've got free will.....the choice is yours....

(sorry to sound so harsh!  But I've gotta be true to Scripture....)

 

"My mother raised me SDA.  I left that denomination 30 years ago.  "

SDA Fundamental Belief #18 states: "The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church."

And if you read White's writings, you'll find her OPPOSE (over and over and over again) the ongoing force of Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah portions.

You also stand opposed to the ongoing force of Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah portions (just as White does....)

White is, thus, a FALSE PROPHETESS (given Dt. 13:1-5).

Apparently you have not yet shaken yourself free of this false prophecy.

Jesus requires all Torah (Mt.5:19).  John too (1Jn.5:3).  Paul too (2Ti.3:16).  Stephen too (Ac.6:10-15).  The apostles includes Torah-teachers (Mt.23:34), to teach ALL disciples of all nations (Mt.28:19-20), NO exceptions given for the Torah portions you oppose.

 

So, for what it's worth, I encourage you to return to truly authentic faithful Torah-obedient Biblical faith.

It's worth a LOT, actually! 

(e.g., GREAT vs. LEAST....Mt.5:19)

 

blessings...

 

 

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8 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Rather, Jesus said His burden is EASY and LIGHT (Mt.5:19 + Mt.11:30), not "an exercise in futility".

Moses agrees it is NOT too difficult (Dt.30:11).

Luke agrees it is NOT too difficult (citing Elizabeth and Zacharias who obeyed ALL Torah, Lk.1:6).

Paul calls the "first covenant" a "ministry of death written on stones" (2Cor 3:7). 

Why?  Because they could NOT keep it - not without His spirit within - something they "resisted". 

Only when we are assisted by His Spirit within, are we enabled to keep His law of love.  That is what it means to be"yoked" up with Christ.  Without that - it truly is impossible. 

The New Covenant promise is:  "I will put My spirit within you."  (Ezekiel 36:26)

God does not ask us to do it alone. 

2 Corinthians 3:3 "Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart." (KJV)

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