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The Hebrews Roots Movement


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On 3/23/2019 at 1:31 PM, angels4u said:

Those of the Hebrew Roots belief hold to the teaching that Christ's death on the cross did not end the Mosaic Covenant, but instead renewed it, expanded its message, and wrote it on the hearts of His true followers.

Thanks angel, would you believe that heresy is present here on this tiny of island Tahiti in the middle of the South Pacific!  They have learned to read, write and speak in Hebrew too.

I never really understood this verse that Jesus spoke to the Church of Philadelphia, ...up until now:

Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.  Rev 3:9

Lord bless

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4 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Shalom brothers and sisters,

As someone who started as a Christian, became a Messianic follower and now again identifies as a Christian, I think I have some authority to speak on this matter.  

The arguments I have seen thus far are either very typical or just nonsense.  Some of the critical words that have been written are fair but most are incorrect and/or hypocritical. Please let me offer an argument on behalf of our brothers and sisters in the Hebrew roots movement.  

Basically, people are rehashing the same old selection of verses taken out of context to make a point.  You might object and say “It’s within the context of Paul's letter!” But are you so sure of the exact context of each letter?  How much research have you each done into the matter for yourself?  Also, keep in mind, that the context of any verse (and book) still needs to fit in the context of the ENTIRE Bible.  Again, the true context for any verse needs to understood within the context of the entire Bible and its eternal message.  If you suddenly find a verse that seems to contradict God or Jesus’ own eternal words, then you've misunderstood it.

Let me ask you all this.  When Jesus came, what gospel did He preach?  He wasn’t preaching that he would die and rise again and, by His blood, we’ll be saved.  If you think he was, provide the verse to show that.  No, we was preaching that the Kingdom of God is at hand and to repent.  Now, repentance is to turn from sinning. But how is sin defined? By the Torah.  Well, what are we to "turn" to?  To a Godly lifestyle. Then, what conduct would be identified as Godly lifestyle, before the New Testament was written?  The Torah.  What then, was Jesus burdening people until the time of His resurrection?  Think this through carefully.

Let me ask you again, but in a different way.  Do you think Jesus was introducing a completely new way whilst the Pharisees, hot on his heels, were hanging on His every word seeking reason to accuse him of error?  Of course not.  Rather, He was teaching a perfect interpretation of the Torah. An interpretation with a baseline of love and forgiveness. But not according to what the Romans called right or what the Gentiles called wise, but according to Torah.

No one can be saved by keeping the Torah.  In the same way, an orphan cannot be adopted just by following the orphanage’s rules. It is by grace from the Father, through Jesus, that we have been chosen and saved.  But what comes after? Does the newly adopted son start running riot and disrespect the discipline that was taught to him?  Or if another orphan from the street, who never had the rules, is adopted, does the Father let him run riot and wildly? No, but he is taught with the love by the Father.   

Now, the adopted son will not be punished like he was when at the orphanage for his disobedience.  Instead, the Father’s household has higher rules, which he trains each child to have in their heart, as he raises them in an environment of freedom and love.  But what if the adopted child then sits back and says “No! I’m not interested in following your ways!  I'm no longer under rules! You have saved me in your grace, and that is enough!".  When the day of that child’s inheritance comes about, do you suppose he will be entrusted with plenty or little?   But how about if an adopted son DID follow the Father’s ways…  How about instead of sitting back, basking in grace, he said “Thank you for saving me Father, I want to learn what pleases you, I want you to train me to become more like your Son (Jesus) and teach me your ways.  I don't understand them yet, but I know I love you.”  What do you suppose the Father would think of that attitude?  The child's salvation from the orphanage is not at question here, neither is he "earning" it by pleasing the Father.  Rather, the child has chosen to change his behaviour to please his Father - of his own free will, because of his love for the Father. 

So let's imagine that the Father said to His adopted son "Look, I want you to stay at home on Saturday and rest. If you need to leave to help others in need, then very good, you may go and help them.  But, in general, I don't want you working or shopping in that day.  Just take a day to chill, trust me."  And then the child responds "No! Your own Son (Jesus) is my Saturday - not in typology only, but in actuality!  Still, that said, I love you so much!"  Do you suppose the Father could believe his child's love if he doesn't respect His wishes, even in things made for his own good? 

Anyway, as for the start of the Hebrew roots movement, it started with the 12 Disciples, it's as simple as that.  Christianity came later - although originally it was just another name for the way of the Disciples.  To try and make out it started later, by devious means, either proving it from a congregation's history page or from the name of a 'movement', is an error.  The Tanakh is Hebrew rooted. The Messiah was Hebrew rooted. The Disciples were Hebrew rooted and the New Testament was Hebrew rooted.  It is latter Christianity we should scrutinise, not the earlier form. 

Sure, there are negative sides to the Hebrew roots movements of today though!  Some have the tendency to go overboard and come under the Torah, in their zeal to observe it.  Yes, they favour Yeshua or Yahushua over Jesus but, to be fair, that is His name. Yes, they use Yahweh or Yahuah, but that's surely a closer approximation than saying “The LORD” like most Christians, which they do without wisdom and knowledge.   I would honestly use those names more myself in here, if I didn't think it would be a stumbling block for so many.  Yes it's true that the Messianics shouldn’t force their convictions on this matter on others, but neither should Christians ignore such facts and, even worse, disparage those who DO use such names.  As for them ignoring the Trinity and that Jesus came in the flesh? What utter nonsense and a disgusting accusation.  Truly, I learned more about the Trinity under Messianic teaching that the multiple hazy view points across Christianity.  Please be wiser about making such harmful claims.

That brings me to the positives of the Hebrew roots movement.  The teachings often eclipse those from popular Christianity. Their insights, language studies, cultural studies and Hebraic understanding of prophecies is unparalleled in typical churches.  Those who ignore the Hebrew roots are missing many beautiful teachings which bring harmony to the Scriptures and reveal more about our Messiah.  It's a shame many will miss out.

As for me, I left the Messianic movement because I didn’t want to be labelled as “a type” or “division” of Christianity, we have too much of that.  I also felt the zeal for Torah was a little too strong, which is bad.  However, I think it’s just as bad for those Christians who ignore Torah entirely!  So now, I sit inbetween both.  I identify as a "Christian", as they were in Antioch, following the Torah as the Spirit teaches and guides me, resting my heart on my Lord Yahushua's redeeming work for my salvation.  But He set me free to serve Him, just like He did with Israel from Egypt, to serve Him.  What a tremendous privilege!  

 

To those who are interested to learn more... 

I don’t say this to put you down if you have disparaged Hebrew roots movement.  I write with love, hopefully to change your thinking, if the Spirit leads you.  The Torah is filled with riches of wisdom, love, instruction in righteousness and mysteries – all pointing to our Messiah!  There’s not 613 to follow, forget that!  Don’t approach the Torah as a big list to be obeyed either, no.  Approach it as a young orphan reading his Father’s book about what makes a well-behaved and wise child.  The Spirit will lead you as you read it and you can take it one step at a time.  For example, the Sabbath may be the first thing you are convicted to follow (and you’ll do well to do so).  That’s step 1 done. Now, step 2 might not hit you until one, two or even six months after!  That’s fine, however the Spirit leads YOU.  It’s something to be excited about though!  It truly is an interesting adventure! The New Testament is not "the Scriptures for the Gentiles", but ALL of it is for us to read and learn from!  Don't listen to me alone though, ask the Father to confirm the things I written to you. 

I'm quite simple guy, in many ways.  I'm not smart or great in any matter really.  But, if you have ANY questions on this topic, please ask them here or personally by PM. If I know, I'll answer (and I'll answer honestly if I don't!)  Only, please ask respectfully or I won't respond at all.  

 

To those who will disregard the things I have said...

I pose you two challenges:

1. Answer me this, where in the words of Jesus does He clearly describes that Torah will no longer be applicable to His disciples?  Prove this matter to me, without using the words of Paul, just the Messiah's.  (For it seems most Christians today still misunderstand Paul, just as Peter said they would, in 2 Peter 3:16)

2. However, if you want to bring Paul into it (as I’m sure you will need to), what do you suppose the below verse means?....

"But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.  All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." ~ 2 Timothy 3:14-16

What parts of the Scripture do you suppose Paul is referring to? Do you think he means Proverbs?  Perhaps Lamentations? 

If you can't answer in a way that would convince another then, please, start from scratch and read the new testament again.  Throw away your preconceived ideas indoctrinated into us all by 'latter Christianity' and read it with unhindered eyes.  I'm so glad I done this and you can too. It's not too late! 

Love & Shalom

And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart.Ezekiel 36:26 

Matthew 5:17-20 English Standard Version (ESV

Christ Came to Fulfill the Law

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

We have the law written in our heart and through the Holy Spirit we would want to do what God wants us to do, we're not living under the law, the law had it's a purpose, to convict us from sin but now through the Holy Spirit we are free from the law and we know right from wrong as the Holy Spirit will convict of sin.

John 8:36 

36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

 

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On 3/25/2019 at 8:17 AM, Tzephanyahu said:

1. Answer me this, where in the words of Jesus does He clearly describes that Torah will no longer be applicable to His disciples?

For one example:

Mark 10:2 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.

3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?

4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. [= Deut. 24:1]

5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.

6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. ...

10 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. ...

12 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

For another example, when he said on the cross, "Τετέλεσται" -- "it has been completed/fulfilled" -- he was indicating that the Law's requirement for blood sacrifice had been fulfilled for all time. This he also made evident when he prophesied that --

Matt. 23:35 ...on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth... 36 ...all these things will come upon this generation. 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem... 38 ...Your house is left to you desolate...

The desolation of the Temple in 70 AD made any further fulfillment of the Law impossible, because the Temple was required to fulfill the Aaronic ordinances.

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11 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

For one example:

Mark 10:2 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.

3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?

4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. [= Deut. 24:1]

5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.

6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. ...

10 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. ...

12 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

For another example, when he said on the cross, "Τετέλεσται" -- "it has been completed/fulfilled" -- he was indicating that the Law's requirement for blood sacrifice had been fulfilled for all time. This he also made evident when he prophesied that --

Matt. 23:35 ...on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth... 36 ...all these things will come upon this generation. 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem... 38 ...Your house is left to you desolate...

The desolation of the Temple in 70 AD made any further fulfillment of the Law impossible, because the Temple was required to fulfill the Aaronic ordinances.

If you're happy to flip the entire message of the Bible on those few subtle allusions, okay. But I could not. 

Without understanding the cultural context, or considering the message of Psalm 22 in light of "it's finished", both these arguments wouldn't hold well in a debate. To say they negate Torah entirely wouldn't be obvious to the layman. 

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3 minutes ago, Tzephanyahu said:

If you're happy to flip the entire message of the Bible on those few subtle allusions, okay. But I could not. 

Without understanding the cultural context, or considering the message of Psalm 22 in light of "it's finished", both these arguments wouldn't hold well in a debate. To say they negate Torah entirely wouldn't be obvious to the layman. 

"Subtle illusions"? Hardly. The Law of Moses required the Aaronic priesthood to serve all of the Torah's statutes for sacrifices and offerings in the Tabernacle, and then later the Temple. Not a single one of the feast days can be properly observed without a Temple. Most particularly the Day of Atonement.

Fortunately, another Temple, the heavenly one, has superseded the former earthly one; but that Temple has a different priesthood and a different Law.

"Negate Torah entirely"?? What, is Torah made up of parts that one could pick and choose?

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

And that is the big problem with Messianic Judaism today: it is made up of a bunch of well-meaning but self-deluded believers in Christ all arguing among themselves about which of the Torah's precepts they really really need to keep, and which they can let slide. Many of such well-intentioned brothers and sisters are in my own community, so I speak from firsthand experience.

The Torah is worthy for deep study, but the Law of Moses is best now taken as wisdom literature, akin to Proverbs and Ecclesiastes. It has many prophetic representations, but the Church is not bound by its material precepts.

I have posted a 7-part series on the spiritual significance of the Tabernacle and Court, and the Feast Days associated with it, which series begins here:

 

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On 4/2/2019 at 11:37 AM, pinacled said:

Not sure who started the phrase mosaic law. The term is misleading.

You mean, you cannot understand that "Mosaic Law" is merely shorthand for "the Law of Moses"? Picky picky picky.

Joshua 8:31 A as it is written in the book of the law of Moses,

1 Kings 2:3  as it is written in the law of Moses,

2 Kings 14:6 according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses,

2 Chronicles 30:16 And they stood in their place after their manner, according to the law of Moses the man of God: the priests sprinkled the blood, which they received of the hand of the Levites.

Ezra 3:2  as it is written in the law of Moses the man of God.

Daniel 9:13 As it is written in the law of Moses,

Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant

Luke 2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Etc.

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23 hours ago, pinacled said:

James 2:8 If you truly attain the goal of Kingdom Torah, in conformity with the passage that says, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you are doing well. 

James 2:1 My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality.

The "Kingdom Torah", as your version puts it, refers to the King's Law, and the King is Jesus Christ. Not Moses.

YHWH gave the Ten Commandments, and Jesus in his authority added the two Great Commandments.

Moses included God's commandments within the Law of Moses, as well as the second of the two Great Commandments. But the Law of Moses IS NOT the "Kingdom Torah" -- that is the Torah of the Christ/Messiah and His New Covenant:

Luke 22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the New Covenant in My blood, which is shed for you."

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You are welcome to try to keep the Old Covenant. I choose enter into the New Covenant, which has better promises.

Hebrews 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

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