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7 minutes ago, choir loft said:

Tone it down ..... or recant altogether?

Tone it down.   

I used to be a prime example of what the Christians feared about Messianics - legalistic, angry, judgemental, bitter and militant over salvation.  I'm grateful to Yahweh that He snapped me out of it.  As for today, I still standby those many worthwhile and rich Messianic teachings but not at the cost of what's really worthwhile love, patience, kindness, and peace.   If we lose sight of that, all the mysteries, secrets and insights into God's Word will avail us nothing.

For all the truth we learn, what does it matter if no one wants to approach us?  If we speak with harsh tongues, name calling and disrespectful analogies we have served no one.  We keep people away from the truth, represent Him poorly, and only wind ourselves up.

I'm sure you have plenty to share us in a positive and peaceful tone.  But even I, a Hebrew Roots proponent, will lose interest in reading your posts if they continue with such aggression and use analogies of poo, murder and pigs.  I'm saying this for your benefit brother.  I've been there, thinking "if this is what it takes to wake people up!".  Remember the words that the Lord Yahushua gave to the church of Ephesus in Revelation 2.   You're better than this anger.   I agree with the core of your message.  The Christian Church is facing real problems today and is embarrassingly ignorant of the Word, in general.  Yes, they could benefit from knowing more of the truth and losing the pagan practices which are polluting her.  But it must be done in love, patience and peace, or they will just write you off.

Love & Shalom

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14 hours ago, choir loft said:

The admonition to peddle the Word of God in terms that ignore the horror of divine judgment....
and the true wickedness of SIN is not an act of love.... 

It is deceitful and evocative of demonic influence....

:emot-heartbeat:

Peddling The Word

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. Romans 10:17 (New American Standard Bible)

And Loving Upon The Saints

By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." John 13:35 (New International Version)

Is Just Not The Demonic Thing To Do

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love other believers. The person who doesn't grow in love remains in death. 1 John 3:14 (GOD'S WORD® Translation)

:emot-heartbeat:

Stay On One's Knees

He has showed you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God? Micah 6:8 (American King James Version)

And One Should Get It (Sooner Or Later, lol~!)

Likewise, you younger ones, be subject to the elder. Yes, all of you clothe yourselves with humility, towards one another; for God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. 1 Peter 5:5 (New Heart English Bible)

:emot-heartbeat:

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 (King James Bible)

Love, Your Brother Joe

~

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160 (King James Bible)

The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable.

Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.

It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword and the Christian’s charter. Here too, Heaven is opened and the gates of Hell disclosed.

Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully.  It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure.

It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents.

From The Inside Of My Gideon New Testament

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I removed about 10 posts from this thread ... personal in nature and banned someone from the thread.  Please, stay on topic and no personal attacks.  It's just not needed.

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On 5/30/2019 at 10:27 AM, NickyLouse said:

We believe that the animal sacrifices have been suspended until the temple in Heaven comes when the New Jerusalem is established in the millennial reign at which time the sacrifices will be re-instituted. The reason that it will be required then is for the nations that have made it through the great tribulation and whereas faith has become sight of Yeshua and it is no longer possible to simply have faith by believing. Faith will be recognized by what is done.

A wise and insightful statement. Once "every eye shall see Him" (Rev. 1:7), its will be either obedience or non-obedience.

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On 3/23/2019 at 5:31 PM, angels4u said:

Those of the Hebrew Roots belief hold to the teaching that Christ's death on the cross did not end the Mosaic Covenant, but instead renewed it, expanded its message, and wrote it on the hearts of His true followers.  ...  https://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrew-roots.html

The part in red is what some people in my own community teach; which teaching denies the "new covenant" that Christ established at the Passover supper.

Luke 22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you."

To get around this little problem, they (quoting an internet source) claim that the Greek word kainos/"new" really means "renewed." Which it doesn't, in any possible way. (For example, kainos is undeniably an adjective, whereas renewed is a verb.)

When one rejects the biblical teaching that Christ established an entirely new covenant, then the door is opened for all sorts of justifications about why we must keep the Law of Moses. All based upon this false premise. What a controversy a single misinterpreted word can cause!

 

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:emot-heartbeat:

When The LORD Speaks Of Israel

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Jeremiah 31:31-34 (King James Bible)

He Means Israel

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. Hebrews 8:10-12 (King James Bible)

You Think

:emot-heartbeat:

Love, Joe

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On 4/1/2019 at 2:55 PM, WilliamL said:

"Subtle illusions"? Hardly. The Law of Moses required the Aaronic priesthood to serve all of the Torah's statutes for sacrifices and offerings in the Tabernacle, and then later the Temple. Not a single one of the feast days can be properly observed without a Temple. Most particularly the Day of Atonement.

Fortunately, another Temple, the heavenly one, has superseded the former earthly one; but that Temple has a different priesthood and a different Law.

"Negate Torah entirely"?? What, is Torah made up of parts that one could pick and choose?

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

And that is the big problem with Messianic Judaism today: it is made up of a bunch of well-meaning but self-deluded believers in Christ all arguing among themselves about which of the Torah's precepts they really really need to keep, and which they can let slide. Many of such well-intentioned brothers and sisters are in my own community, so I speak from firsthand experience.

The Torah is worthy for deep study, but the Law of Moses is best now taken as wisdom literature, akin to Proverbs and Ecclesiastes. It has many prophetic representations, but the Church is not bound by its material precepts.

I have posted a 7-part series on the spiritual significance of the Tabernacle and Court, and the Feast Days associated with it, which series begins here:

 

Hi there!  I see you wrote:

"but the Church is not bound by its [Torah] material precepts."

However, that same Torah passes into the New Covenant (Jer.31:33) in which we partake by virtue of Christ's blood (Lk.22:20).

Paul applies ALL Torah to you (2Ti.3:16).

John applies ALL Torah to you (1Jn.2:3;5:3).

Stephen requires ALL Torah (Ac.6:10-15).

Peter even explicitly applies Lev. 11 to you (1Pe.1:16).

Jesus requires ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) for all disciples of all nations (Mt.28:19-20).

So, it appears you have not properly accounted for these important Scriptural considerations.

Agreed?

blessings...

 

 

 

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On 9/11/2019 at 12:52 PM, WilliamL said:

The part in red is what some people in my own community teach; which teaching denies the "new covenant" that Christ established at the Passover supper.

Luke 22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you."

To get around this little problem, they (quoting an internet source) claim that the Greek word kainos/"new" really means "renewed." Which it doesn't, in any possible way. (For example, kainos is undeniably an adjective, whereas renewed is a verb.)

When one rejects the biblical teaching that Christ established an entirely new covenant, then the door is opened for all sorts of justifications about why we must keep the Law of Moses. All based upon this false premise. What a controversy a single misinterpreted word can cause!

 

 

Hi there!

Yes, it is the NEW Covenant (not "renewed" Covenant)....Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10.

However, the SAME TORAH OF MOSES passes into this New Covenant (Jer.31:33) in which we partake by virtue of Christ's blood (Lk.22:20).

So, NEW COVENANT....but SAME TORAH.

Torah was DISOBEYED in the Old Covenant (Heb.8:9).

Torah is properly OBEYED in the NEW Covenant (Heb.8:10).

And this IS a profound justification regarding why we must grow in faithful obedience to the Torah of Moses, as taught by Jesus (Mt.5:19)...and the Apostles (Mt.23:34)....including Paul (2Ti.3:16), John (1Jn.5:3), Stephen (Ac.6:10-15)....and Peter even applies Lev. 11 to us explicitly (1Pe.1:16).

blessings....

 

 

 

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On 6/26/2019 at 2:31 AM, JLB said:

 

Justification by faith requires obedience as well, in which repentance is required. 

 

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

 

Not the works of the law

Not good works

Not work that earns a wage

 

But Abraham was justified by the work or action of obedience.

The obedience of faith.

 

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

 

 

Those who who do not obey the Gospel will not be saved. 

 

 

JLB 

Hi there!

I saw you wrote: "Not good works"

However, James plainly says Abraham WAS JUSTIFIED by works (Jas.2:24), and not faith alone.

What kind of works?  Obviously GOOD works!  (surely not BAD works!)

Agreed?

And you wrote: "Not the works of the law"

But Abraham plainly obeyed God's laws too (Ge.26:5)....

Agreed?

blessings...

 

 

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13 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Hi there!  I see you wrote:

"but the Church is not bound by its [Torah] material precepts."

However, that same Torah passes into the New Covenant (Jer.31:33) in which we partake by virtue of Christ's blood (Lk.22:20).

Paul applies ALL Torah to you (2Ti.3:16).

John applies ALL Torah to you (1Jn.2:3;5:3).

Stephen requires ALL Torah (Ac.6:10-15).

Peter even explicitly applies Lev. 11 to you (1Pe.1:16).

Jesus requires ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) for all disciples of all nations (Mt.28:19-20).

So, it appears you have not properly accounted for these important Scriptural considerations.

Agreed?

Not at all, for either of your posts. Which notably did not actually quote a single scripture.

For just one example, you say,

13 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Torah is properly OBEYED in the NEW Covenant (Heb.8:10).

Heb. 8:10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

This says nothing about the Torah of Moses being obeyed by the Church. To put the passage in its context, let's go back to verse 8:

Heb. 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 “not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD."

The portion in bold shows that this is a different covenant, not the Torah of Moses.

Edited by WilliamL
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