The Hebrews Roots Movement

[BibleGuy]

21 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Why would ANY "Isrealites" still be in mortal physical bodies, during the millennium.  I thought we are ALL CHANGED and made immortal at the Glorious Return.

Those who are not Christs, will not survive the plagues that follow the Glorious Return - especially if they were of Israel.  That would mean they were hypocrites - just Jews on the outside - not the inside. 

    Isaiah 24:6 “Therefore the curse has devoured the earth, and those who dwell in it are desolate. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men are left”.

        NOTE: The “few men” who “are left” will be the redeemed, who are removed from this earth before it is consumed by the last plagues.

The last "bowl" plagues of Rev Cpt 16 take everything necessary for human life.  Every living creature in the sea dies.  There goes the algae that makes 75% of our oxygen.  One third of all trees and all grass was "burned up" by the first trumpet plague.  (Not much oxygen from plants, or food.)  The sea and all rivers become like blood.  (There goes the food chain.)  The sun scorches men with fire (maybe a gamma ray burst), or maybe because the earth is "moved out of its place (Job 9:6, Rev 6:14).  The kingdom of the Beast goes pitch dark.  Since everyone without the seal of God will worship the Beast, and the Beast is given authority over all nations and tongues - that makes his "kingdom" worldwide.  Looks like the sun stops shining.  

    Jeremiah 4:23-26 [After the great day of the Lord] “I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; And the heavens, they had no light.  I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled, And all the hills moved back and forth.  I beheld, and indeed there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.  I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were broken down at the presence of the LORD, By His fierce anger.” 

Just how much time will pass between the earth being "burned up" (consumed by fire) and the earth being healed/restored/made new - I don't know.  Could be 1000 years.  Could be just 7 days.  HE created it in the first place, in just 7 days.  "He spoke and it was done."  "He commanded and it stood fast." 

I believe the "saved" will be removed from this planet by Christ at His glorious return (just like Lot was removed from Sodom).  They will stand on the Sea of Glass before the Father's throne.  The earth will remain "desolate" for at least some time period.  Jeremiah did say that desolation is "rest" (Lev 26:33-35).  At some point Yeshua will heal this planet and Israel redeemed will be returned to this planet, and to "the land".  They will rebuild and restore.  They will build Ezekiel's Temple in preparation for the resurrection of "the rest of the dead" (Rev 20:5). 

"Why would ANY "Isrealites" still be in mortal physical bodies, during the millennium.  I thought we are ALL CHANGED and made immortal at the Glorious Return."

The WE who are changed at the return (1Cor.15:51) is (in context!) the WE who have "hoped in Christ" (1Cor.15:19)....NOT everybody on the planet.

So, BELIEVING Israelites will be changed at the return....but UNBELIEVING peoples (Israelite or not) will presumably NOT be changed, but will pass into the Millennium in normal human bodies.

This would explain how some Israelites will still be procreating (given the Israelite INFANTS of Is.65:20).

This would explain how some Israelites will still die (given the Israelite deaths in Is.65:20,22), because they are not yet in their immortal bodies.

And the nations, at that time, will still be in regular physical bodies of sin....thus the Levitical sacrificial system is still needed for them....obviously as an ongoing shadow which continuously points to the once-for-all sacrifice of the blood of Yeshua for us all.

 

"NOTE: The “few men” who “are left” will be the redeemed, who are removed from this earth before it is consumed by the last plagues."

Rather, I suspect the "few men" are those in regular bodies who survived God's judgment.

After all, the Messiah comes to rule the nations with a "rod of iron" (Ps.2:8-12)....which is a pretty harsh form of judgment that would be unnecessary if the nations were already redeemed and perfected in immortal bodies.

Also, many of the nations will rebel again at the end of the Millennium (Rev.20:8)...again confirming that the nations of regular-human-bodied-peoples during the Millennium continue as regular-human-bodied-peoples with the capacity to sin and rebel....and sure enough.....a large portion evidently rebels in Rev.20:8.....

 

"The last "bowl" plagues of Rev Cpt 16 take everything necessary for human life.  "

Rather, humans are STILL blaspheming in Rev.16:21....so some are still alive at that time.

 

"Jeremiah 4:23-26"

This may simply be a passage describing forthcoming judgment against Judah....which would have occurred in conjunction with the Babylonian exile.

 

"I believe the "saved" will be removed from this planet by Christ at His glorious return (just like Lot was removed from Sodom). "

I'm thinking may you're right.  After all, we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath (1Th.5:9).  Not sure how long we are "removed"....maybe just during the time period of God's judgment against world (as described in the 21 judgments in Revelation...)

 

"Jeremiah did say that desolation is "rest" (Lev 26:33-35). "

I think you meant MOSES, not JEREMIAH.

But, I'm thinking the desolation in Lev. 26 is the current state of our suffering in this present diaspora....whereas God's judgment against the sinful world (i.e., the 21 judgments of Revelation) is a future event.

 

blessings...

 

 

[WilliamL]

On 11/19/2019 at 11:12 AM, BibleGuy said:

Heb. 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 “not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD."

Matt. 21:43 "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

Gal. 3:24 Wherefore the law [torah] was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. ... 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[BibleGuy]

23 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Great arguments BibleGuy.  Giving me lots to study and think about.  Though I can't agree that the prophecy and the fulfillment will operate simultaneously. 

If we can go directly to the LORD, why would anyone go to a Levite priest?  If that system was inferior, why keep it?  We only need the "more perfect" system. 

 1 Corinthians 13:10 "But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away."

Hebrews 8:13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

"If we can go directly to the LORD, why would anyone go to a Levite priest? "

Well, because that's what the LORD wants (Mal.3:4;Eze.40-47;Is.66;Is.61;Jer.33;Zec.14.;Dt.30:1-8) as an ongoing shadow pointing to Christ (the shadow IS, PRESENT TENSE, an ongoing function....PRESENT TENSE in Col.2:17 and Heb.10:1, by the way).

And, Torah requires LEVITICAL activity...and we have much evidence that Torah will be 100% restored in the future (e.g., Dt. 30:1-8), including Levitical activity.

 

"If that system was inferior, why keep it?"

The system of Levitical sacrifices is ALWAYS inferior...and it ALWAYS points to Christ....and Christ points to the Torah.  So it's BOTH.  Christ AND Torah.  Both. Together.

 

"1 Corinthians 13:10 "But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away."

The context is talking about imperfect knowledge and partially-understood prophecy (1Cor.13), not Torah.

And, Torah IS perfect (Ps. 19:7)...so when we all obey Torah in perfection, we will no longer have partial knowledge or partially-understood prophecy....everything will be VERY clearly understood by all (1Cor.13:12)....NO NEED to teach others to KNOW the Lord at that time (Jer.31:34).

 

"Hebrews 8:13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."

Yes.  WE have a NEW Covenant...the OLD covenant passes away.

But the SAME TORAH passes into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33).

CONCLUSION:  NEW Covenant (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).

SAME Torah (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16;Is.59:20-21;Eze.36:27).

 

Torah of Moses was widely DISOBEYED in the Old Covenant (Heb.8:9).

Torah of Moses is properly OBEYED in the New Covenant (Heb.8:10).

 

NEW Covenant.

SAME Torah.

blessings...

 

[WilliamL]

To repeat a point made much earlier in this string:

The Church Age is an age of faith, in which those who come to faith in Christ before his return, and manifest their faith by deeds, will be taken up to the New Jerusalem in heaven at His coming in the clouds for His elect.

After His coming, there is no more opportunity for that kind of faith, because "every eye will see Him." At that instant, there will be no doubt as to the authority of Jesus; therefore, only obedience -- which is of law/torah -- will remain.

Therefore the Church Age is sandwiched between and completely distinct from Mosaic Torah 1 and Mosaic Torah 2.

[BibleGuy]

5 hours ago, WilliamL said:

To repeat a point made much earlier in this string:

The Church Age is an age of faith, in which those who come to faith in Christ before his return, and manifest their faith by deeds, will be taken up to the New Jerusalem in heaven at His coming in the clouds for His elect.

After His coming, there is no more opportunity for that kind of faith, because "every eye will see Him." At that instant, there will be no doubt as to the authority of Jesus; therefore, only obedience -- which is of law/torah -- will remain.

Therefore the Church Age is sandwiched between and completely distinct from Mosaic Torah 1 and Mosaic Torah 2.

"the Church Age is sandwiched between and completely distinct from Mosaic Torah 1 and Mosaic Torah 2."

To the contrary, the TORAH OF MOSES, itself, affirms that CHURCH = ISRAEL!

Here's the proof from the LXX:

4:10  ἡμέραν ἣν ἔστητε ἐναντίον κυρίου τοῦ θεοῦ ὑμῶν ἐν Χωρηβ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῆς ἐκκλησίας ὅτε εἶπεν κύριος πρός με ἐκκλησίασον πρός με τὸν λαόν καὶ ἀκουσάτωσαν τὰ ῥήματά μου ὅπως μάθωσιν φοβεῗσθαί με πάσας τὰς ἡμέρας ἃς αὐτοὶ ζῶσιν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς καὶ τοὺς υἱοὺς αὐτῶν διδάξωσιν

 

Did you see it?  That's CHURCH ("ἐκκλησίασον"), right there in Dt. 4:10!

And over and over and over again, CHURCH = ISRAEL, throughout the LXX Torah of Moses.

And that SAME Torah of Moses passes directly into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16)....in which we Christians partake by faith.

So OF COURSE we should obey the TORAH of the New Covenant in which we partake!

After all, Jesus applies ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) to ALL disciples of ALL nations (given Mt.28:19-20).

blessings...

 

[Resurrection Priest]

 

Hi BibleGuy, 

Happy Giving Thanks Day - for USA. 

 

Our dialog has helped me to better understand the difference between my beliefs and those of the HR movement believers. 

 

You seem to read the prophecies of the OT describing the "return" of "Israel", the restoration of "sacrifices" and "offerings" and "the priests" and "Levites"

as entirely LITERAL descriptions of what would/will be.

 

In your view: literal "Israel" (literally circumcised) will be returned to "the land" area promised to "the seed of Abraham", where a literal Temple will be rebuilt, and the literal descendants of Levi/Aaron will offer literal animal sacrifices.  All this will happen BEFORE the return of Yeshua in power.

 

[Most interesting that Evangelicals are supporting Israel in their efforts to bring the prophecies to pass.  I personally believe this will lead right into the counterfeit Second Coming.  The real AntiChrist will appear in their rebuilt Temple, and almost everyone will believe he actually is Messiah come - because that's what they have been expecting.] 

 

I read those OT prophecies as SYMBOLIC prophecy - of what Christ would/will do.  Yeshua is our priest (who makes atonement), and our sin offering, and our whole burnt offering, and even our Ark of God, (because the Torah was "in" Him).  He is and always will be.  He is our judge.  The "true Tabernacle" (not man-made) is "Heaven itself" according to Hebrews.  Any other Temple was just a copy. 

 

I do not believe that redeemed/restored/made immortal/faith "Israel" will be "returned" to "the land" until AFTER Yeshua's Glorious Return.   

 

I don't think HR believers are being disrespectful of Christ because they interpret the prophecies literally.

 

And I don't think I am being disrespectful of the Torah/priests/Temple because I interpret them as symbolic prophecy.

 

I think that LITERAL understanding  vs  SYMBOLIC understanding,  is a good way to describe the difference in our interpretations of the OT prophecies concerning restoration of Temple/priesthood/sacrifices and circumcision. 

I will continue to search for passages that could point more strongly towards either LITERAL or SYMBOLIC interpretation. 

Of course, there were duel prophecies - with both a partial fulfillment at a point in time AND a later complete fulfillment. 

[Alive]

22 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Matt. 21:43 "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

Gal. 3:24 Wherefore the law [torah] was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. ... 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Do you think that men during the millennial age and afterwards will be 'baptized into Christ'? Will be regenerated?

[Resurrection Priest]

23 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

"Jeremiah did say that desolation is "rest" (Lev 26:33-35). "

I think you meant MOSES, not JEREMIAH.

But, I'm thinking the desolation in Lev. 26 is the current state of our suffering in this present diaspora....whereas God's judgment against the sinful world (i.e., the 21 judgments of Revelation) is a future event.

Yes.  Moses - not Jeremiah. 

Rest is rest - whether it was during the Babylonian captivity, or during the upcoming 7th millennium, after the plagues have destroyed life on planet earth. 

"The land" was not completely desolate during the Babylonian captivity.  Some people (the poor) were still living on "the land". 

"The land" was not completely desolate after Rome dispersed "the people". 

I'm talking COMPLETE literal desolation of the entire earth - "the uninhabited place". 

23 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

"The last "bowl" plagues of Rev Cpt 16 take everything necessary for human life.  "

Rather, humans are STILL blaspheming in Rev.16:21....so some are still alive at that time.

I believe the last 7 bowl plagues are "poured out" on the day that Christ returns in glory, just after He has removed His people from this planet. 

Revelation 18:8 "Therefore her plagues will come in one day-- death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her." (NKJ)

Babylon will rule the entire world. She rides the Beast.  When she falls, her judgment will involve the entire world - which has become "the kingdom of" the Beast.

The last bowl judgment plagues are a cascading event that begins on THE DAY that Christ returns in glory.    Like a volcano begins a cascade of events, but it's really one event.   It takes awhile for famine to happen, but it results from THE EVENT that started the process.   When the LORD withdraws His Spirit from this earth, nature along with mankind will go into a spiral of demonic wickedness and chaos, which will end in the complete destruction of this planet. 

During the process, men will curse God. 

[Resurrection Priest]

On 11/25/2019 at 3:07 PM, BibleGuy said:

I think there's more flexibility to "μετατίθημι" than just transposition (substitution) or physical transfer.

Look at"μετατίθημι" here:

1Ki. 21:25  (LXX 20:25) πλὴν ματαίως Αχααβ ὡς ἐπράθη ποιῆσαι τὸ πονηρὸν ἐνώπιον κυρίου ὡς μετέθηκεν αὐτὸν Ιεζαβελ ἡ γυνὴ αὐτοῦ

Seems to be more the idea of transferring FOCUS from one thing to another....not transposition or substitution or physical transfer.

Again, "μετατίθημι" can evidently mean:  "TO GO OVER OR PASS OVER".

 

And sure enough, in Heb. 7:12 we find the Messiah NOT focusing upon Levitical Priesthood rules for permanent sin removal....

Rather, we find the Messiah focusing upon Melchizedek Priesthood rules for permanent sin removal....

The Messiah PASSES OVER (not transposes...not substitutes...not physically transfers) FROM the Levitical sphere, and passes over to focus upon the Melchizedek sphere to achieve permanent sin removal.

  Hebrews 9:8 "By this arrangement, the Ruach HaKodesh showed that so long as the first Tent had standing, the way into the Holiest Place was still closed." (CJB)

"had standing" :  "standing" -  4714 sta,sij stasis {stas'-is}
Meaning:  1) a standing, station, state

The "first Tent" no longer has any "standing" before God, as the place or means of atonement or justification.   When Yeshua Messiah ascended to minister as our High Priest before God in "the Holiest Place" (Heaven itself - where God is),  there was no longer any need to seek for atonement/justification at the "first Tent". 

Yes.  I realize that Paul went back to Jerusalem and went up to the Temple to complete a Nazarite Vow, and he paid for the sacrifices of several other men doing the same. 

The LORD had warned him at least three times NOT TO GO (Acts 20:22-23, Acts 21:4, & Acts 21:11).    Paul went anyway.  I personally believe that in so doing Paul "struck the rock twice".  The LORD allowed Paul to suffer in chains for what remained of his life, before he was beheaded. 

[Resurrection Priest]

On 11/25/2019 at 6:06 PM, dhchristian said:

To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; (Isa 1;11-17)

You of course are welcome to do them but they are empty of the power they once had. The Torah cannot save you nor can it take your sins away only Christ Jesus can by abiding in the vine. 

In Isaiah 1:11-17, the LORD hates the outward observance of His Torah, without the inward heart repentance and true heart love for HIM.  Even I don't believe the LORD hates HIS Sabbaths or HIS Feasts.  All flesh will come before HIM in the New Earth - on those days.  Obviously when "all flesh" have true heart joy in HIM. 

Isaiah 66:22 "For just as the new heavens and the new earth which I make will endure before Me," declares the LORD, "So your offspring and your name will endure. 23 "And it shall be from new moon to new moon and from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD. (NAS)

Someone here is going to quote  Colossians 2:16-17.

"So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ." (NKJ)

I believe Paul was telling believers not to allow the "circumcision party" to scold them regarding the way in which they commemorated "the Feasts".  They need NOT go up to Jerusalem.  They need not be physically circumcised.  They need not offer "meal offerings" (food) or "drink offerings" (drink).  Those things were the "shadow" pointing forward in symbols to "the substance" which is Christ.