The Hebrews Roots Movement

[Still Alive]

15 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Paul calls the "first covenant" a "ministry of death written on stones" (2Cor 3:7). 

Why?  Because they could NOT keep it - not without His spirit within - something they "resisted". 

Only when we are assisted by His Spirit within, are we enabled to keep His law of love.  That is what it means to be"yoked" up with Christ.  Without that - it truly is impossible. 

The New Covenant promise is:  "I will put My spirit within you."  (Ezekiel 36:26)

God does not ask us to do it alone. 

2 Corinthians 3:3 "Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart." (KJV)

And to amplify: Deuteronomy 30:6-8 --  The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. The Lord your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you. You will again obey the Lord and follow all his commands I am giving you today.

[Still Alive]

15 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

I do not believe that I am disrespecting Torah or Christ's desires.  I believe "the priesthood being changed, there is of necessity also a change of the Law".

I have NOT said that you "are at risk of the bad side" because you don't see what I see. 

Not nice BibleGuy.  Let's not accuse each other.  Let's just state our opinions and pray for each other.  OK? 

I'm not one who believes that we have to be "perfect" (or have perfect doctrine) to be saved.  That is what Christ's covering/forgiveness is for.  We just look to HIM and ask HIM to teach us and guide us. 

I know you sincerely believe what you've shared with me.  I respect your views, even if I don't agree with them. 

Well said!

I have to confess that it is sometimes very difficult for me to post here, all the time knowing that I am the only one that fully understands scripture as written to the men who's lives are contemporaneous with each book, as well as how it applies to us in the 21st century. This wisdom is a great burden I must carry when I discuss its true meaning with so many people that are wrong. 

 

Note: Yes, I am just being silly.

[Still Alive]

7 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

Worried about you brother......you are going down a path of strong delusion.

Incoming scripture bomb which I hope will help to demolish all arguments and imaginations that exalt themselves above the word of God (no need to duck it though, it's for our good):

 

Heb 8:7-13

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Rom 7:1-6

Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

1Ti 1:7-11

Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully (ie, in the new way of the spirit);

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

 

I love Hebrews. It so nails legalism to the wall. Of course it does! Who was it written to?

[BibleGuy]

15 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Paul calls the "first covenant" a "ministry of death written on stones" (2Cor 3:7). 

Why?  Because they could NOT keep it - not without His spirit within - something they "resisted". 

Only when we are assisted by His Spirit within, are we enabled to keep His law of love.  That is what it means to be"yoked" up with Christ.  Without that - it truly is impossible. 

The New Covenant promise is:  "I will put My spirit within you."  (Ezekiel 36:26)

God does not ask us to do it alone. 

2 Corinthians 3:3 "Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart." (KJV)

 

"Why?  Because they could NOT keep it - not without His spirit within - something they "resisted". "

SOME resisted....SOME did not.

It's only a "ministry of death" for those who disobey.....or for those who try to "obey" without the Spirit....

Jesus expects us to obey and LIVE (Mt.4:4;Dt.8:3).

 

"Only when we are assisted by His Spirit within, are we enabled to keep His law of love.  That is what it means to be"yoked" up with Christ.  Without that - it truly is impossible. "

And you could be yoked up with Christ even back in the days of Moses....(1Cor.10:4).

 

"The New Covenant promise is:  "I will put My spirit within you."  (Ezekiel 36:26)"

Read the next verse!  The Spirit leads us to obey Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27)...and the ordinances include LEVITICAL/CEREMONIAL/SACRIFICIAL Torah portions.

 

"God does not ask us to do it alone. "

But God DOES ask us to do ALL Torah (Dt.6:25;Mt.5:19).  And it's not too difficult (Dt.30:11)...it's easy! (Mt.11:30).

 

"2 Corinthians 3:3 "Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart." (KJV)

Of course...and for Paul, the Spirit leads us, in the New Covenant, to obey all words of Torah "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27).  That includes Levitical Torah portions!

 

blessings

 

 

 

 

[BibleGuy]

15 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

I do not believe that I am disrespecting Torah or Christ's desires.  I believe "the priesthood being changed, there is of necessity also a change of the Law".

I have NOT said that you "are at risk of the bad side" because you don't see what I see. 

Not nice BibleGuy.  Let's not accuse each other.  Let's just state our opinions and pray for each other.  OK? 

I'm not one who believes that we have to be "perfect" (or have perfect doctrine) to be saved.  That is what Christ's covering/forgiveness is for.  We just look to HIM and ask HIM to teach us and guide us. 

I know you sincerely believe what you've shared with me.  I respect your views, even if I don't agree with them. 

Hi there!  Thanks, again, for your comments!

 

"I have NOT said that you "are at risk of the bad side" because you don't see what I see. "

Ok....first.....you are "seeing" anti-Torah theology.  That's bad!

The warnings are against those who CHANGE or ALTER or SUBTRACT or MODIFY or CANCEL or TERMINATE Torah portions (as your theology does....)

Remember the warnings?   Mt. 5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;Dt.4:2;12:32;Rev.22:18-19;Jos.1:7;Pr.30:6.

I'm emphasizing 100% of ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8)....whereas you claim some Torah portions are CHANGED (thus SUBTRACTED or MODIFIED or CANCELED).

The warnings apply to YOUR theology, not mine.

That's why you have no grounds for warning me as I must warn you.

 

And, you haven't even adequately addressed my objections to your "the priesthood was changed" argument....

Remember?

1. I already showed you that the "change" of Heb. 7:12 (Gr. " μετατίθημι ") can mean TO GO OR PASS OVER (not necessarily TRANSPOSE or SUBSTITUTE or REPLACE).

2. Heb. 7:12 has Jesus PASSING OVER the Levitical Priesthood rules...and functioning in accordance with the Melchizedek Priesthood rules...because Jesus is not a Levite! (not because Levitical Torah is terminated).

3. The writer of Hebrews has the Levitical Priesthood CONTINUING even into the New-Covenant era (Heb.7:28;8:3-5;8:10;9:6-7,9,22,25;10:1,11,16), so the writer of Hebrews is obviously not envisioning a CHANGE of Torah instructions regarding Levitical service.

4. INSTEAD (Heb. " תַּחַת ", Nu.3:12) is IN PLACE OF, not a CHANGE from a previous methodology.

5. Jesus comes to restore Levitical sacrifices (Mal.3:4) to fulfill the Davidic Covenant (Jer.33), Sabbath (Is.66), Sukkot for all nations (Zec.14), in the temple (Eze.40-47) He comes to rebuild (Zec.6), when we again obey 100% of ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8).

6. Jesus DESIRES sacrifices on behalf of people from all nations (Mk.11:17 citing Is.56:7).

7. Jesus requires ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) for all disciples of all nations (Mt.28:19-20).

 

"Not nice BibleGuy. "

I know it's "in your face"...but Jesus was also "in your face" when rebuking anti-Torah religion (Mt.23).

And, Scripture requires that I rebuke you (Lev.19:17;Lk.17:3;2Ti.3:16), lest I be guilty of condoning/sharing in your sin.....because SIN is violation of Torah (Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4;Is.42:24)...and your theology VIOLATES Torah portions which prescribe required Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial service.

 

" Let's not accuse each other.  Let's just state our opinions and pray for each other.  OK? "

Christian duty includes more than prayer and opinion-sharing.

Scripture requires rebuke (Lev.19:17;Lk.17:3;2Ti.3:16).

Feel free to rebuke me in return, explaining why my position is incorrect....it's ok!  I'll only thank you for correcting/rebuking/training me if I'm wrong....

But you see, we're not just playing opinion-sharing games....

We're not just choosing to "believe" whatever we prefer....

We must subject our beliefs to Scripture....

It's very important to do this....much is at stake.

I love you enough to warn you....even if it threatens our friendship....

That's what friends do.

I'd rather you walk away from me, knowing I've warned you....rather than remain friends under the delusion that it's ok for us to simply "state our opinions and pray"...

Christian duty requires more than that.

As James Dobson said....sometimes love must be tough.

 

"I'm not one who believes that we have to be "perfect" (or have perfect doctrine) to be saved. "

I never said perfect doctrine is required to be saved...rather, we are simply urged to PERSEVERE in our doctrine so as to insure salvation (1Ti.4:16).

Everybody is at a different place in their doctrinal understanding....that's ok!

I doubt the thief on the cross knew too much at all about many Scriptural things....yet the Messiah assured him of paradise.

But, when we encounter resistance to Scriptural truth in a brother...well...this must be dealt with....and I know it's tough.

 

"That is what Christ's covering/forgiveness is for.  We just look to HIM and ask HIM to teach us and guide us. "

Yes.

And we can also help to save others (1Ti.4:16).

 

" I respect your views, even if I don't agree with them. "

Ok then...we can talk about something else, then....and leave it at that....

 

blessings...

 

 

[BibleGuy]

16 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

You're being PERSONAL again BibleGuy.  How can we have good discussions, if you make it personal? 

I was just speculating that your opposition to ongoing Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah portions could be a hangover from your past SDA involvement with Ellen White's writings which likewise oppose ongoing Levitical/ceremonial/sacrifical Torah portions.

And ALL our beliefs are PERSONAL beliefs....because we are PERSONS!

So of course our discussions about beliefs are personal...

But if you'd rather move on to a different subject, we can do that.

 

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

16 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

And I urge you to pray about it.  As I will, and have. 

I cannot "embrace" a position unless/until I fully agree with it.  Which is OK.  Study takes time.  Paul studied for years and years AFTER He met Christ on the Damascus road, before He felt ready to argue with the "scholars" of His day.   

Granted....we can move on to another subject then, if you like.

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

8 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

Worried about you brother......you are going down a path of strong delusion.

Incoming scripture bomb which I hope will help to demolish all arguments and imaginations that exalt themselves above the word of God (no need to duck it though, it's for our good):

 

Heb 8:7-13

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Rom 7:1-6

Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

1Ti 1:7-11

Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully (ie, in the new way of the spirit);

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

 

Howdy!

I appreciate the well-intentioned warnings...

Let's take a closer look...

 

"Incoming scripture bomb which I hope will help to demolish all arguments and imaginations that exalt themselves above the word of God (no need to duck it though, it's for our good):"

Nice!  I LOVE the word of God!  And the word of God includes TORAH (Dt.1:3;5:27-33;etc)....so of COURSE we should demolish all arguments or imaginations which oppose Torah.

After all, Paul required ALL Torah (2Ti.3:16).

 

Heb.8:13?  Of COURSE the Old Covenant passes away.  Agreed!

We now have a NEW Covenant (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).

But the SAME TORAH OF MOSES (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16) passes into that New Covenant.

NEW Covenant.

SAME Torah.

Torah was DISOBEYED in the Old Covenant (Heb.8:9).

Torah is properly OBEYED in the NEW Covenant (Heb.8:10).

NEW Covenant.

SAME Torah.

After all, Jesus applies ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) to ALL disciples of ALL nations (given Mt.28:19-20).

 

Romans?  Of COURSE we are dead to (and delivered from) the law....from WHICH law?  From the law of sinful disobedience and death (Rom.8:2)....not from ALL Law!

Remember, there are TWO laws:

LAW #1:  The law of sinful disobedience and death (Dt.30:15-19)

LAW #2: The law of righteous obedience and life (Dt.30:15-19)

Now, Paul (in Romans) merely confirms that we are not under LAW #1 (Rom.8:2).

Paul REQUIRES Law #2 (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19).

Paul condones an animal-sacrifice-laden vow to prove he "walks orderly according to the law" (Ac.21:24); YOU should imitate that Torah-obedient model (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

Paul says we who do the law are justified (Rom.2:13).

Paul affirms the legitimacy of Torah-obedient Gentiles (Rom.2:27).

Paul says STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34), which means OBEY TORAH (given Rom.3:20;7:7).

Paul says Torah is good (Rom.7:12).  DO GOOD (Gal. 6:9) thus means OBEY TORAH.

Paul says Torah is holy (Rom.7:12).  BE HOLY (1Pe.1:16) thus requires that we OBEY TORAH (Peter even applies Lev. 11 to you explicitly in 1Pe.1:16).

Paul says Torah is righteous (Rom.7:12).  DO righteousness (1Jn.2:29;3:7) or else you are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) who will not inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20).  So obey Torah!

Paul says Torah is spiritual (Rom.7:14).  PURSUE and DESIRE that which is spiritual (1Cor.14:1) thus entails OBEYING TORAH.

Paul CONTINUES to serve Torah (Rom.7:25).

Paul serves in the SPIRIT (Rom.7:6), and the Spirit opposes the flesh (Rom.8:13), and the flesh opposes Torah (Rom.8:7), so the SPIRIT opposes TORAH-DISOBEDIENCE.  So obey Torah in the Spirit!

Paul confirms that, in the New Covenant, the Spirit leads us to obey Torah "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27).

Paul requires FRUIT (Rom.7:4;Gal.5:22-23), including FAITH (Gal.3:11 citing Hab.2:4); faith is of TORAH (Ps.119:30,86,138).

Paul testifies that TORAH-OBEDIENCE is the faith he preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8)

Paul upholds the New Covenant (1Cor.11) which is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

 

So sure, we are "loosed" from LAW #1, but not from LAW #2!

We are "dead" to LAW #1, but not to LAW #2!

We are "delivered" from LAW #1, but not from LAW #2!

Thus we continue to SERVE IN THE SPIRIT (Rom.7:6).....SERVE WHAT?  TORAH! (Rom.7:25), but NOT in the oldness of the letter without the Spirit.

 

1Timothy 1?  Of COURSE the prohibitive Torah laws are not made for righteous people....because righteous people are already OBEYING ALL TORAH (Dt.6:25)!

By the way, Jesus applies Dt. 6 to you (Mt.22:37)...and Dt. 6 (in CONTEXT!) requires ALL Torah (Dt.6:25).

 

Thanks for bringing out these important Scriptural passages....

blessings...

 

 

 

[BibleGuy]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Nonsense. There is the ecclesia of Israel, and there is the ecclesia of the Church.

Two distinct assemblies, the former earthly, the latter heavenly. Heb. 12:23

Two distinct covenants, one spiritual/pneumatikos, the other "natural"/psuchikos. That is why Christ brought the New Covenant, the "second" covenant. Heb. 8:6-7; Luke 22:20

"There is the ecclesia of Israel, and there is the ecclesia of the Church."

Nonsense!  ECCLESIA (in Greek) = CHURCH (in English)! 

So, you just claimed that "there is the ecclesia of the Church", which means you just claimed that "there is the CHURCH OF THE CHURCH"....and that's quite silly!

 

Moreover, you gave us no Scripture to support your claim.

 

And, Heb. 12:23 refers to the CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN....AND THAT IS ISRAEL! (Ex.4:22).

And the CHURCH of Heb.12:23 partakes in the NEW COVENANT of Heb.12:24 which is for ISRAEL (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).

Again we've confirmed that CHURCH = ISRAEL.

 

"Two distinct covenants, one spiritual/pneumatikos, the other "natural"/psuchikos"

NEW Covenant (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).

SAME Torah of Moses (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:6).

 

"That is why Christ brought the New Covenant, the "second" covenant. Heb. 8:6-7; Luke 22:20"

And keep reading! Heb.8:10 says that the New Covenant is given as TORAH (citing Jer.31:33 at Rom.8:10).

 

You are NOT excluded from Israel (Eph.2:12).  Israelites obey Torah (Mal.4:4;Jer.31:31-33;Heb.8:8-10).

You are NOT excluded from the COVENANTS (Eph.2:12); the covenants are given as TORAH (e.g., Jer.31:33).

 

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

2 hours ago, Still Alive said:

In a way, yes - and no. What I've rejected is the authority of some men who try to tell us what written word is canonical and what isn't. Prayer comes first. One can believe in the atoning sacrifices and resurrection of Christ for one's sins without ever seeing a bible. In fact, people did it all the time in the century after Christ's ascension. The bible is an extremely valuable book, and is good for teaching, etc. Further, it contains the word of God. But it is not, in its entirety, THE word of God. It is the words of men, inspired by God. As are some books that are not even part of our protestant canon, though they are part of the canon of other Christian sects. 

God has a lot to say in the OT. Those words are ascribed to God, himself. But much of it is not God talking. It is man talking. Ruth is one of my favorite OT books. It is a story of people who obeyed God, but God is barely mentioned in it and it is really a compelling story of people who worship God and how their obedience to Him affected their day to day life - and an important part of the genealogy of Christ.

Well, I could agree that some noncanonical books are true....for example, Enoch looks pretty good to me...even cited by Jude and Peter, and maybe even alluded to by Paul in Galatians.