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15 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

"I was talking about the new covenant which, as you pointed out, is easy and light."

Rather, ALL Jesus' teachings are EASY AND LIGHT...thus Mt. 5:19 is EASY AND LIGHT....

AND, Jesus applies Mt. 5:19 to ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

AND, the New Covenant is given as the SAME TORAH OF MOSES (Jer.31:33).

NEW Covenant (Jer.31:31).

SAME Torah (Jer.31:33).

 

"Jesus points out just how hard the first one was when he said merely hating your brother was murder and merely looking at a woman with physical desire was adultery"

It's not too difficult!  Moses did NOT lie (Dt.30:11).

Luke agrees people can obey ALL Torah (Lk.1:6).

Jesus requires ALL Torah (Mt.5:19).  Paul too (2Ti.3:16).  John too (1Jn.5:3).  Stephen too (Ac.6:10-15).

 

"he made it impossible to save yourself through what is actually referred to as "dead works"."

FAITHFUL TORAH-OBEDIENCE is not "dead works".

Proper Torah-obedience is sufficient for eternal life (Lk.10:25-28).

 

" Be as good as you can."

Then obey Torah! (Rom.7:12).  Because Torah is GOOD.

 

"It won't be good enough."

It WILL be good enough to be GREAT (Mt.5:19) and to ENTER the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20)....and to AVOID the scary consequences of Torah-disobedience (Mt.5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42).

Sure, only the BLOOD takes away our sins (1Jn.1:7)...but that same Christ requires ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

 

"It's because how good you are has nothing to do with it."

To the contrary, your WORKS will be judged....some will be rewarded....others will NOT be rewarded....our works ARE IMPORTANT! (2Cor.5:10;1Cor.3:15).

Some will be GREAT...others LEAST (Mt.5:19).

You choose.

 

"It is about belief. Works follow belief, as does salvation. But the key is belief."

BELIEF without WORKS is DEAD (Jas.2).

The key is BOTH!

Justification by TORAH (Rom.2:13) AND Faith (Rom.5:1).

TOGETHER.

BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

blessings...

 

 

 

I limit the "law" to the ten commandments. 

I compare the Christian "eternity" to the Jewish and Muslim eternities thusly:

In the Jewish and Muslim eternities, all the roads have stop signs.

In the Christian eternity, all the roads have yield signs.

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16 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Rather, the commandments are contained in ALL the Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3;Jos.1:7)...not merely the 10!

DISOBEY Torah and be at risk of: Mt.5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42...that INCLUDES risk of losing the KINGDOM and risk of losing JESUS and risk of FIERY JUDGMENT.....don't go there!

blessings..

 

I think OT Israel lived in constant fear of offending God. Jesus brought a better way. We call it the "good news" and the "gospel". We can go before him boldly. We are heirs. 

https://www.openbible.info/topics/boldness

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13 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Hello TONGUEINCHEEK. 

I try. 

Just so you know, my post was not in the least aimed at you. :)

It is something I think about when discussing/debating here sometimes. It's like the political discussions I often get in with those that disagree with me. One of us aknowledges that he doesn't have full knowledge and is stating his opinion based on his world view, what wisdom he has aquired, and what information he has at his disposal. 

The other thinks I'm Mr. Wrongee Wrongo and I need to wake up and see the truth. 

We ALL see through a glass darkly. Realizing that is the step right after "the beginning of wisdom" step. ;)

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16 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Howdy!

I appreciate the well-intentioned warnings...

Let's take a closer look...

 

"Incoming scripture bomb which I hope will help to demolish all arguments and imaginations that exalt themselves above the word of God (no need to duck it though, it's for our good):"

Nice!  I LOVE the word of God!  And the word of God includes TORAH (Dt.1:3;5:27-33;etc)....so of COURSE we should demolish all arguments or imaginations which oppose Torah.

After all, Paul required ALL Torah (2Ti.3:16).

 

Heb.8:13?  Of COURSE the Old Covenant passes away.  Agreed!

We now have a NEW Covenant (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).

But the SAME TORAH OF MOSES (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16) passes into that New Covenant.

NEW Covenant.

SAME Torah.

Torah was DISOBEYED in the Old Covenant (Heb.8:9).

Torah is properly OBEYED in the NEW Covenant (Heb.8:10).

NEW Covenant.

SAME Torah.

After all, Jesus applies ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) to ALL disciples of ALL nations (given Mt.28:19-20).

 

Romans?  Of COURSE we are dead to (and delivered from) the law....from WHICH law?  From the law of sinful disobedience and death (Rom.8:2)....not from ALL Law!

Remember, there are TWO laws:

LAW #1:  The law of sinful disobedience and death (Dt.30:15-19)

LAW #2: The law of righteous obedience and life (Dt.30:15-19)

Now, Paul (in Romans) merely confirms that we are not under LAW #1 (Rom.8:2).

Paul REQUIRES Law #2 (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19).

Paul condones an animal-sacrifice-laden vow to prove he "walks orderly according to the law" (Ac.21:24); YOU should imitate that Torah-obedient model (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

Paul says we who do the law are justified (Rom.2:13).

Paul affirms the legitimacy of Torah-obedient Gentiles (Rom.2:27).

Paul says STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34), which means OBEY TORAH (given Rom.3:20;7:7).

Paul says Torah is good (Rom.7:12).  DO GOOD (Gal. 6:9) thus means OBEY TORAH.

Paul says Torah is holy (Rom.7:12).  BE HOLY (1Pe.1:16) thus requires that we OBEY TORAH (Peter even applies Lev. 11 to you explicitly in 1Pe.1:16).

Paul says Torah is righteous (Rom.7:12).  DO righteousness (1Jn.2:29;3:7) or else you are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) who will not inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20).  So obey Torah!

Paul says Torah is spiritual (Rom.7:14).  PURSUE and DESIRE that which is spiritual (1Cor.14:1) thus entails OBEYING TORAH.

Paul CONTINUES to serve Torah (Rom.7:25).

Paul serves in the SPIRIT (Rom.7:6), and the Spirit opposes the flesh (Rom.8:13), and the flesh opposes Torah (Rom.8:7), so the SPIRIT opposes TORAH-DISOBEDIENCE.  So obey Torah in the Spirit!

Paul confirms that, in the New Covenant, the Spirit leads us to obey Torah "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27).

Paul requires FRUIT (Rom.7:4;Gal.5:22-23), including FAITH (Gal.3:11 citing Hab.2:4); faith is of TORAH (Ps.119:30,86,138).

Paul testifies that TORAH-OBEDIENCE is the faith he preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8)

Paul upholds the New Covenant (1Cor.11) which is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

 

So sure, we are "loosed" from LAW #1, but not from LAW #2!

We are "dead" to LAW #1, but not to LAW #2!

We are "delivered" from LAW #1, but not from LAW #2!

Thus we continue to SERVE IN THE SPIRIT (Rom.7:6).....SERVE WHAT?  TORAH! (Rom.7:25), but NOT in the oldness of the letter without the Spirit.

 

1Timothy 1?  Of COURSE the prohibitive Torah laws are not made for righteous people....because righteous people are already OBEYING ALL TORAH (Dt.6:25)!

By the way, Jesus applies Dt. 6 to you (Mt.22:37)...and Dt. 6 (in CONTEXT!) requires ALL Torah (Dt.6:25).

 

Thanks for bringing out these important Scriptural passages....

blessings...

 

 

 

You are so ripe for the third Temple in Jerusalem and false messiah, it's truly shocking.  Sadly that's what the Hebrew Roots deception is leading many to.  It's Judaizing all over again....nothing new under the sun.  Somebody needs to nail a copy of the book of Galations on your doors.

Isa 66:3

He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their ABOMINATIONS.

You are lifting up Torah as though it is your god, and are proud of it.  Cult spirit all over you, I'm sorry to say...what strong delusion is made of.  Instead we are to lift up and glorify Christ and follow HIM.  What is the simplicity of the gospel all about?  It's not a checklist of hundreds of do's and don't's but a simple Way.....a walking after the Spirit of Christ.  Christ IN us the hope of glory, not Torah the hope of glory.  We are to submit to the righteousness of Christ not seeking to establish our own righteousness.

(Paul, a Jew, only practiced the Law at times for the sake of expediency ONLY, in order to not put an unnecessary stumbling block in the way of unbelieving Jews.  He didn't do it because of thinking God required it of him or any Blood washed believer in Christ/Yeshua.   Jewish believers may practice Law keeping for expediency sake or newer believers until they grow into the understanding that God no longer requires it.  That is why the Law was "fading" away, to allow people time to grow and because the Temple hadn't yet been destroyed which ended animal sacrifice.  Imagine someone already washed in the blood of Christ forever, killing and bleeding out an animal in order to atone for their sins for a year....that is belittling and trampling the blood of Jesus underfoot! )

 

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1 hour ago, Heleadethme said:

You are so ripe for the third Temple in Jerusalem and false messiah, it's truly shocking.  Sadly that's what the Hebrew Roots deception is leading many to.  It's Judaizing all over again....nothing new under the sun.  Somebody needs to nail a copy of the book of Galations on your doors.

While the Torah reveals God's ideas about how we should be cleansed before Him, the ordinances and sacrifices are done away with at the cross of Yeshua. I get a really unhealthy feeling about any need for a temple since we are told WE are the temple of God and His laws are written in our hearts. To sacrifice animals to God is an insult to Yeshua. He is our sacrifice and Torah points to Him. It is absurd to consider sacrificing to God and a the apostle says, "making Yeshua's crucifixion of no account". An insult and a very dangerous thing to do. We do NOT need another temple and its sacrificial system. This is what Hebrews is all about. Why on earth do we want to perform this abomination before Yahweh?? Just like YOGA is an insult to God..

Edited by Justin Adams
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5 hours ago, Still Alive said:

Actually, I think it is good that it casts doubt on the "complete truth" of those books. I am actually in the middle of listening to his podcast on Exodus (I have a three hour round trip commute) and he's evicerating many common viewpoints about it, all the time using the scripture itself to make his points. 

It's not that he is throwing out those books. It is that he's attempting to discern who wrote them, who they were written for, and what they mean to us today.

I finally just purchased his books, "The Unseen Realm, Angels, and Supernatural". The last one is a "reader's digest" version of the first one. The second is about what the bible really has to say about supernatural beings.

Welll...feel free to keep us informed re: what you learn about Heiser's viewpoint....

But I think Jesus is smarter than Heiser....

And Jesus upholds the full authority of the Torah and Prophets (Mt.5:18), even though Heiser might be deluded into thinking he can doubt that authority.

So, I'll go with Jesus, not Heiser.

 

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5 hours ago, Still Alive said:

I limit the "law" to the ten commandments. 

I compare the Christian "eternity" to the Jewish and Muslim eternities thusly:

In the Jewish and Muslim eternities, all the roads have stop signs.

In the Christian eternity, all the roads have yield signs.

"I limit the "law" to the ten commandments. "

The Bible includes all the written Torah of Moses as "law" (1Ki.2:3).

 

And, "Jewish" and "Christian" are not mutually exclusive....so your "road sign" analogy doesn't account for this consideration.

 

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On 12/4/2019 at 6:01 AM, Still Alive said:

I think OT Israel lived in constant fear of offending God. Jesus brought a better way. We call it the "good news" and the "gospel". We can go before him boldly. We are heirs. 

https://www.openbible.info/topics/boldness

"I think OT Israel lived in constant fear of offending God. Jesus brought a better way."

Jesus requires the SAME TORAH (Mt.5:19) for ALL ISRAEL (Mal.4:4).

Jesus thus requires the SAME FEAR OF GOD (Dt.17:19;28:58;31:12;Mt.10:28).

 

"We call it the "good news" and the "gospel"."

The gospel of FAITH preached by Paul is a TORAH-OBEDIENT word of faith (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

The SAME TORAH OF MOSES (Jer.31:33) passes into the NEW Covenant (Heb.8:10) inaugurated by Jesus (Lk.22:20).

Torah is not new!

Jesus says Torah-obedience is a sufficient condition of eternal life (Lk.10:25-28).

 

"We can go before him boldly. We are heirs. "

We are heirs (Eph.3:6) who share in the promised LAND-INHERITANCE (Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29) which we will inherit when we return to inherit the land promised to us, when we again obey 100% of ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8).

Dt. 30:1-8 is a yet future prophecy, after all.

It has not happened yet.

We Israelites are STILL in diaspora, just as in Jas.1:1.

 

 

 

Edited by BibleGuy
typo
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11 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

Welll...feel free to keep us informed re: what you learn about Heiser's viewpoint....

But I think Jesus is smarter than Heiser....

And Jesus upholds the full authority of the Torah and Prophets (Mt.5:18), even though Heiser might be deluded into thinking he can doubt that authority.

So, I'll go with Jesus, not Heiser.

 

I have listened to hundreds of hours of Dr. Heiser. I do not find him far off in most areas. He has opinions yet he studies peer review scholarship which few preachers, teachers or 'theologians' of today can be bothered to do. Heiser gives us the choice to take on board what we wish and he just researches the veracity of things he studies.

Edited by Justin Adams
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1 minute ago, BibleGuy said:

"I think OT Israel lived in constant fear of offending God. Jesus brought a better way."

Jesus requires the SAME TORAH (Mt.5:19) for ALL ISRAEL (Mal.4:4).

Jesus thus requires the SAME FEAR OF GOD (Dt.17:19;28:58;31:12;Mt.10:28).

 

"We call it the "good news" and the "gospel"."

The gospel of FAITH preached by Paul is a TORAH-OBEDIENT word of faith (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

The SAME TORAH OF MOSES (Jer.31:33) passes into the NEW Covenant (Heb.8:10) inaugurated by Jesus (Lk.22:20).

Torah is not new!

Jesus says Torah-obedience is a sufficient condition of eternal life (Lk.10:25-28).

 

"We can go before him boldly. We are heirs. "

We are heir (Eph.3:6) who share in the promised LAND-INHERITANCE (Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29) which we will inherit when we return to inherit the land promised to us, when we again obey 100% of ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8).

Dt. 30:1-8 is a yet future prophecy, after all.

It has not happened yet.

We Israelites are STILL in diaspora, just as in Jas.1:1.

 

 

 

I think you have made it very clear where you stand on this issue. I've thrown out a few points but have invested as much time in this discussion as I have time for. 

I expect we will both continue to study and search for as much of the personality of our creator and his desire for each of us in the short life he has given us. For now, we seem to disagree on some stuff, but suffice it to say that we both believe that our salvation is based on our belief in his sacrifice as atonement for our sins and our single doorway to eternal life with our creator. 

Thanks for a stimulating discussion.

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