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4 hours ago, Still Alive said:

I think it's a fringe issue because Christians don't follow the Torah. It's a fringe issue in the same way sacrificing animals is a fringe issue.

For what it's worth, I see much of the law of Moses as man-made and paralleling the laws applied to a lot of cultures of the day. Where it is from God is where it specifically says it is from God.

Edit: FWIW, Matthew 5:19 is Jesus teaching to Jews in a Jewish culture, before the existence of Christianity. He is confirming their law, and also pointing out (to any reasonable person listening at the time) how much of an exercise in futility it is to earn your way into eternity.

Scripture can only be interpreted when its context is carefully considered. And context includes the words around it, the chapters around it, and the time and place in which it was presented and even the audience at the time it was being presented.

Hi!

"For what it's worth, I see much of the law of Moses as man-made and paralleling the laws applied to a lot of cultures of the day."

Well, then you have rejected the authority of Biblical Scripture.

After all, Scripture asserts that the written law of Moses is GOD's commands (not "man-made" commands).  1Ki.2:3.

 

"FWIW, Matthew 5:19 is Jesus teaching to Jews in a Jewish culture, before the existence of Christianity. "

And Jesus applies ALL those pre-cross instructions to ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

 

"He is confirming their law, and also pointing out (to any reasonable person listening at the time) how much of an exercise in futility it is to earn your way into eternity."

Rather, Jesus said His burden is EASY and LIGHT (Mt.5:19 + Mt.11:30), not "an exercise in futility".

Moses agrees it is NOT too difficult (Dt.30:11).

Luke agrees it is NOT too difficult (citing Elizabeth and Zacharias who obeyed ALL Torah, Lk.1:6).

After all, the Torah of Moses passes directly into the New Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16), so of COURSE believers should obey the Torah of the New Covenant in which they partake.

 

"Scripture can only be interpreted when its context is carefully considered. And context includes the words around it, the chapters around it, and the time and place in which it was presented and even the audience at the time it was being presented."

True....we must provide a consistent, comprehensive, Biblical theology....

 

blessings...

 

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36 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Do the #1 people celebrate/commemorate the Feasts?  I am definitely NOT a "dispensationalist".  I don't believe in a "secret rapture" either. 

Re: #2  The Messianic UMJC synagogue I attended in Albuquerque years ago, taught that.  Only "Jewish Christians" should keep the Sabbath.  Crazy - IMO.

#3:  I agree completely that Jews and Gentiles "in Christ" are ALL Israelites.  Everyone - both Jew and Gentile, must be attached to the Olive Tree, nourished by Christ - the Holy Root.  All must strive to obey all 10 of the Covenant Commandments. 

I do NOT AGREE that the animal sacrifices are continued in the New Covenant.  I believe the "priesthood" has been "changed" BACK to "the firstborn".  (The sin of the golden calf having been washed away by Christ's death.)  All faithful Levites (in Christ) are included in the Melchizedek priesthood of the firstborn.  

What would that make me part of?  Guess I should have my own catagory - #4.  lol 

My mother raised me SDA.  I left that denomination 30 years ago.  The SDAs are big on the Day of Atonement being the start of an "investigative judgment" in Heaven, which began back in 1844.  Thing is.  Today no one at the church today even notices the Day of Atonement from year to year.  I was 40 years old when I learned that the "Last Supper" was a Passover meal.  Grief!  I felt very cheated.  Yeshua said, "I know my sheep."  No need to examine any heavenly record books to see who belong to Him. 

Howdy!

 

"Do the #1 people celebrate/commemorate the Feasts?  I am definitely NOT a "dispensationalist".  I don't believe in a "secret rapture" either. "

Probably some do, probably some don't.  My guess is that most do NOT...except a portion might do Passover....

 

"Re: #2  The Messianic UMJC synagogue I attended in Albuquerque years ago, taught that.  Only "Jewish Christians" should keep the Sabbath.  Crazy - IMO."

Yes....crazy AND unbiblical!

 

"All must strive to obey all 10 of the Covenant Commandments. "

Yes.  And Commandment #1 entails ALL THE REST of the Torah of Moses....including Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah portions.

Jesus applies Dt. 6 to you (Mt.22:37)....which requires ALL Torah (Dt.6:5,25)....not merely the 10 commandments.

 

"I do NOT AGREE that the animal sacrifices are continued in the New Covenant. "

And I've pointed out that Levitical sacrifices CONTINUED with Paul (Ac.21), with THOUSANDS of 1st-century believers (Ac.21:20), with 1st-century animal-sacrificing priests (Ac.6:7)....

And they WILL be restored (Mal.3:4) to fulfill Sabbath (Is.66), the Davidic Covenant (Jer.33), Sukkot for all nations (Zec.14), the future temple (Eze.40-47) in the temple Yeshua will build (Zec.6), for ALL Israelites who will obey 100% of ALL Torah again (Dt.30:1-8).

After all, the Torah of Moses passes into the New Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16)....so OF COURSE Levitical service will resume.

Jesus desires sacrifices for people from all nations (Mk.11:17 citing Is.56:7)...so let's not terminate what Jesus desires to resume!

Yeshua applies ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) to ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20)....

So, your opposition to Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah puts you at risk of the bad side of Mt. 5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42....you don't need to do that.

When you see a tree, the shadow is STILL THERE TOO!  The shadow IS (present tense, Col.2:17;Heb.10:1) an ongoing Torah function.

 

" I believe the "priesthood" has been "changed" BACK to "the firstborn".  "

Then you just contradicted all the Scripture I just cited here....I urge you to embrace my position....

 

" (The sin of the golden calf having been washed away by Christ's death.) "

ALL sins are cleansed away (1Jn.1:7)...but we still obey ALL Torah (1Jn.2:3;5:3) as proof of our love for Him....no exceptions for Levitical service in 1Jn.5:3 or 2Ti.3:16 or 1Cor.7:19!

 

"All faithful Levites (in Christ) are included in the Melchizedek priesthood of the firstborn.  "

I don't think so...I've already shared with you why I think that's dubious...

 

"What would that make me part of?  Guess I should have my own catagory - #4.  lol "

Well, you now stand OPPOSED to select Torah portions....and as such, grave warnings apply to you (Mt.5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;Pr.30:6;Rev.22:18;Dt.4:2;12:32;Jos.1:7)....I don't think you want that category!

But hey....you've got free will.....the choice is yours....

(sorry to sound so harsh!  But I've gotta be true to Scripture....)

 

"My mother raised me SDA.  I left that denomination 30 years ago.  "

SDA Fundamental Belief #18 states: "The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church."

And if you read White's writings, you'll find her OPPOSE (over and over and over again) the ongoing force of Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah portions.

You also stand opposed to the ongoing force of Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah portions (just as White does....)

White is, thus, a FALSE PROPHETESS (given Dt. 13:1-5).

Apparently you have not yet shaken yourself free of this false prophecy.

Jesus requires all Torah (Mt.5:19).  John too (1Jn.5:3).  Paul too (2Ti.3:16).  Stephen too (Ac.6:10-15).  The apostles includes Torah-teachers (Mt.23:34), to teach ALL disciples of all nations (Mt.28:19-20), NO exceptions given for the Torah portions you oppose.

 

So, for what it's worth, I encourage you to return to truly authentic faithful Torah-obedient Biblical faith.

It's worth a LOT, actually! 

(e.g., GREAT vs. LEAST....Mt.5:19)

 

blessings...

 

 

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8 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Rather, Jesus said His burden is EASY and LIGHT (Mt.5:19 + Mt.11:30), not "an exercise in futility".

Moses agrees it is NOT too difficult (Dt.30:11).

Luke agrees it is NOT too difficult (citing Elizabeth and Zacharias who obeyed ALL Torah, Lk.1:6).

Paul calls the "first covenant" a "ministry of death written on stones" (2Cor 3:7). 

Why?  Because they could NOT keep it - not without His spirit within - something they "resisted". 

Only when we are assisted by His Spirit within, are we enabled to keep His law of love.  That is what it means to be"yoked" up with Christ.  Without that - it truly is impossible. 

The New Covenant promise is:  "I will put My spirit within you."  (Ezekiel 36:26)

God does not ask us to do it alone. 

2 Corinthians 3:3 "Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart." (KJV)

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7 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

So, your opposition to Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah puts you at risk of the bad side of Mt. 5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42....you don't need to do that.

I do not believe that I am disrespecting Torah or Christ's desires.  I believe "the priesthood being changed, there is of necessity also a change of the Law".

I have NOT said that you "are at risk of the bad side" because you don't see what I see. 

Not nice BibleGuy.  Let's not accuse each other.  Let's just state our opinions and pray for each other.  OK? 

I'm not one who believes that we have to be "perfect" (or have perfect doctrine) to be saved.  That is what Christ's covering/forgiveness is for.  We just look to HIM and ask HIM to teach us and guide us. 

I know you sincerely believe what you've shared with me.  I respect your views, even if I don't agree with them. 

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8 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Apparently you have not yet shaken yourself free of this false prophecy.

You're being PERSONAL again BibleGuy.  How can we have good discussions, if you make it personal? 

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8 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Then you just contradicted all the Scripture I just cited here....I urge you to embrace my position....

And I urge you to pray about it.  As I will, and have. 

I cannot "embrace" a position unless/until I fully agree with it.  Which is OK.  Study takes time.  Paul studied for years and years AFTER He met Christ on the Damascus road, before He felt ready to argue with the "scholars" of His day.   

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16 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Howdy!

 

"Do the #1 people celebrate/commemorate the Feasts?  I am definitely NOT a "dispensationalist".  I don't believe in a "secret rapture" either. "

Probably some do, probably some don't.  My guess is that most do NOT...except a portion might do Passover....

 

"Re: #2  The Messianic UMJC synagogue I attended in Albuquerque years ago, taught that.  Only "Jewish Christians" should keep the Sabbath.  Crazy - IMO."

Yes....crazy AND unbiblical!

 

"All must strive to obey all 10 of the Covenant Commandments. "

Yes.  And Commandment #1 entails ALL THE REST of the Torah of Moses....including Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah portions.

Jesus applies Dt. 6 to you (Mt.22:37)....which requires ALL Torah (Dt.6:5,25)....not merely the 10 commandments.

 

"I do NOT AGREE that the animal sacrifices are continued in the New Covenant. "

And I've pointed out that Levitical sacrifices CONTINUED with Paul (Ac.21), with THOUSANDS of 1st-century believers (Ac.21:20), with 1st-century animal-sacrificing priests (Ac.6:7)....

And they WILL be restored (Mal.3:4) to fulfill Sabbath (Is.66), the Davidic Covenant (Jer.33), Sukkot for all nations (Zec.14), the future temple (Eze.40-47) in the temple Yeshua will build (Zec.6), for ALL Israelites who will obey 100% of ALL Torah again (Dt.30:1-8).

After all, the Torah of Moses passes into the New Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16)....so OF COURSE Levitical service will resume.

Jesus desires sacrifices for people from all nations (Mk.11:17 citing Is.56:7)...so let's not terminate what Jesus desires to resume!

Yeshua applies ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) to ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20)....

So, your opposition to Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah puts you at risk of the bad side of Mt. 5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42....you don't need to do that.

When you see a tree, the shadow is STILL THERE TOO!  The shadow IS (present tense, Col.2:17;Heb.10:1) an ongoing Torah function.

 

" I believe the "priesthood" has been "changed" BACK to "the firstborn".  "

Then you just contradicted all the Scripture I just cited here....I urge you to embrace my position....

 

" (The sin of the golden calf having been washed away by Christ's death.) "

ALL sins are cleansed away (1Jn.1:7)...but we still obey ALL Torah (1Jn.2:3;5:3) as proof of our love for Him....no exceptions for Levitical service in 1Jn.5:3 or 2Ti.3:16 or 1Cor.7:19!

 

"All faithful Levites (in Christ) are included in the Melchizedek priesthood of the firstborn.  "

I don't think so...I've already shared with you why I think that's dubious...

 

"What would that make me part of?  Guess I should have my own catagory - #4.  lol "

Well, you now stand OPPOSED to select Torah portions....and as such, grave warnings apply to you (Mt.5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;Pr.30:6;Rev.22:18;Dt.4:2;12:32;Jos.1:7)....I don't think you want that category!

But hey....you've got free will.....the choice is yours....

(sorry to sound so harsh!  But I've gotta be true to Scripture....)

 

"My mother raised me SDA.  I left that denomination 30 years ago.  "

SDA Fundamental Belief #18 states: "The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church."

And if you read White's writings, you'll find her OPPOSE (over and over and over again) the ongoing force of Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah portions.

You also stand opposed to the ongoing force of Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah portions (just as White does....)

White is, thus, a FALSE PROPHETESS (given Dt. 13:1-5).

Apparently you have not yet shaken yourself free of this false prophecy.

Jesus requires all Torah (Mt.5:19).  John too (1Jn.5:3).  Paul too (2Ti.3:16).  Stephen too (Ac.6:10-15).  The apostles includes Torah-teachers (Mt.23:34), to teach ALL disciples of all nations (Mt.28:19-20), NO exceptions given for the Torah portions you oppose.

 

So, for what it's worth, I encourage you to return to truly authentic faithful Torah-obedient Biblical faith.

It's worth a LOT, actually! 

(e.g., GREAT vs. LEAST....Mt.5:19)

 

blessings...

 

 

Worried about you brother......you are going down a path of strong delusion.

Incoming scripture bomb which I hope will help to demolish all arguments and imaginations that exalt themselves above the word of God (no need to duck it though, it's for our good):

 

Heb 8:7-13

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Rom 7:1-6

Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

1Ti 1:7-11

Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully (ie, in the new way of the spirit);

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

 

Edited by Heleadethme
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On 11/27/2019 at 7:28 PM, BibleGuy said:

"the Church Age is sandwiched between and completely distinct from Mosaic Torah 1 and Mosaic Torah 2."

To the contrary, the TORAH OF MOSES, itself, affirms that CHURCH = ISRAEL!

Here's the proof from the LXX:

4:10  ἡμέραν ἣν ἔστητε ἐναντίον κυρίου τοῦ θεοῦ ὑμῶν ἐν Χωρηβ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῆς ἐκκλησίας ὅτε εἶπεν κύριος πρός με ἐκκλησίασον πρός με τὸν λαόν καὶ ἀκουσάτωσαν τὰ ῥήματά μου ὅπως μάθωσιν φοβεῗσθαί με πάσας τὰς ἡμέρας ἃς αὐτοὶ ζῶσιν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς καὶ τοὺς υἱοὺς αὐτῶν διδάξωσιν

 

Did you see it?  That's CHURCH ("ἐκκλησίασον"), right there in Dt. 4:10!

Nonsense. There is the ecclesia of Israel, and there is the ecclesia of the Church.

Two distinct assemblies, the former earthly, the latter heavenly. Heb. 12:23

Two distinct covenants, one spiritual/pneumatikos, the other "natural"/psuchikos. That is why Christ brought the New Covenant, the "second" covenant. Heb. 8:6-7; Luke 22:20

Edited by WilliamL
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On 11/28/2019 at 11:58 AM, Alive said:

Do you think that men during the millennial age and afterwards will be 'baptized into Christ'? Will be regenerated?

I believe that is most likely during the millennial age.

With respect to the new earth after the millennium, hard to say, we know too little about it.

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23 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Well, then you have rejected the authority of Biblical Scripture.

In a way, yes - and no. What I've rejected is the authority of some men who try to tell us what written word is canonical and what isn't. Prayer comes first. One can believe in the atoning sacrifices and resurrection of Christ for one's sins without ever seeing a bible. In fact, people did it all the time in the century after Christ's ascension. The bible is an extremely valuable book, and is good for teaching, etc. Further, it contains the word of God. But it is not, in its entirety, THE word of God. It is the words of men, inspired by God. As are some books that are not even part of our protestant canon, though they are part of the canon of other Christian sects. 

God has a lot to say in the OT. Those words are ascribed to God, himself. But much of it is not God talking. It is man talking. Ruth is one of my favorite OT books. It is a story of people who obeyed God, but God is barely mentioned in it and it is really a compelling story of people who worship God and how their obedience to Him affected their day to day life - and an important part of the genealogy of Christ.

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