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23 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

After all, Scripture asserts that the written law of Moses is GOD's commands (not "man-made" commands).  1Ki.2:3.

This may help with understanding my position regarding the "law of Moses":

 

https://drmsh.com/law-moses-survey-scriptural-phrase/

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23 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Rather, Jesus said His burden is EASY and LIGHT (Mt.5:19 + Mt.11:30), not "an exercise in futility".

Right. It is not what I was talking about. I was talking about the new covenant which, as you pointed out, is easy and light. Jesus points out just how hard the first one was when he said merely hating your brother was murder and merely looking at a woman with physical desire was adultery. i.e. he made it impossible to save yourself through what is actually referred to as "dead works". Be as good as you can. It won't be good enough. It's because how good you are has nothing to do with it. It is about belief. Works follow belief, as does salvation. But the key is belief.

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23 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Moses agrees it is NOT too difficult (Dt.30:11).

Luke agrees it is NOT too difficult (citing Elizabeth and Zacharias who obeyed ALL Torah, Lk.1:6).

After all, the Torah of Moses passes directly into the New Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16), so of COURSE believers should obey the Torah of the New Covenant in which they partake.

I see the commandments referred to as the ten commandments. And I see them as a way to:

1. Worship god - showing obedience to his "rules for being a human being that acknowledges he is a possession of his creator.

2. Improve the quality of your own life and your relationship with your fellow man. You violate them at your earthly peril, but not your heavenly peril, though your obedience will have heavenly consequences, though you will still be "saved". 1 Cor 3:13-16

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15 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Paul calls the "first covenant" a "ministry of death written on stones" (2Cor 3:7). 

Why?  Because they could NOT keep it - not without His spirit within - something they "resisted". 

Only when we are assisted by His Spirit within, are we enabled to keep His law of love.  That is what it means to be"yoked" up with Christ.  Without that - it truly is impossible. 

The New Covenant promise is:  "I will put My spirit within you."  (Ezekiel 36:26)

God does not ask us to do it alone. 

2 Corinthians 3:3 "Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart." (KJV)

And to amplify: Deuteronomy 30:6-8 --  The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. The Lord your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you. You will again obey the Lord and follow all his commands I am giving you today.

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15 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

I do not believe that I am disrespecting Torah or Christ's desires.  I believe "the priesthood being changed, there is of necessity also a change of the Law".

I have NOT said that you "are at risk of the bad side" because you don't see what I see. 

Not nice BibleGuy.  Let's not accuse each other.  Let's just state our opinions and pray for each other.  OK? 

I'm not one who believes that we have to be "perfect" (or have perfect doctrine) to be saved.  That is what Christ's covering/forgiveness is for.  We just look to HIM and ask HIM to teach us and guide us. 

I know you sincerely believe what you've shared with me.  I respect your views, even if I don't agree with them. 

Well said!

I have to confess that it is sometimes very difficult for me to post here, all the time knowing that I am the only one that fully understands scripture as written to the men who's lives are contemporaneous with each book, as well as how it applies to us in the 21st century. This wisdom is a great burden I must carry when I discuss its true meaning with so many people that are wrong. 

:)

 

Note: Yes, I am just being silly. ;)

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7 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

Worried about you brother......you are going down a path of strong delusion.

Incoming scripture bomb which I hope will help to demolish all arguments and imaginations that exalt themselves above the word of God (no need to duck it though, it's for our good):

 

Heb 8:7-13

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Rom 7:1-6

Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

1Ti 1:7-11

Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully (ie, in the new way of the spirit);

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

 

I love Hebrews. It so nails legalism to the wall. Of course it does! Who was it written to? :)

  • Well Said! 1

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15 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Paul calls the "first covenant" a "ministry of death written on stones" (2Cor 3:7). 

Why?  Because they could NOT keep it - not without His spirit within - something they "resisted". 

Only when we are assisted by His Spirit within, are we enabled to keep His law of love.  That is what it means to be"yoked" up with Christ.  Without that - it truly is impossible. 

The New Covenant promise is:  "I will put My spirit within you."  (Ezekiel 36:26)

God does not ask us to do it alone. 

2 Corinthians 3:3 "Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart." (KJV)

 

"Why?  Because they could NOT keep it - not without His spirit within - something they "resisted". "

SOME resisted....SOME did not.

It's only a "ministry of death" for those who disobey.....or for those who try to "obey" without the Spirit....

Jesus expects us to obey and LIVE (Mt.4:4;Dt.8:3).

 

"Only when we are assisted by His Spirit within, are we enabled to keep His law of love.  That is what it means to be"yoked" up with Christ.  Without that - it truly is impossible. "

And you could be yoked up with Christ even back in the days of Moses....(1Cor.10:4).

 

"The New Covenant promise is:  "I will put My spirit within you."  (Ezekiel 36:26)"

Read the next verse!  The Spirit leads us to obey Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27)...and the ordinances include LEVITICAL/CEREMONIAL/SACRIFICIAL Torah portions.

 

"God does not ask us to do it alone. "

But God DOES ask us to do ALL Torah (Dt.6:25;Mt.5:19).  And it's not too difficult (Dt.30:11)...it's easy! (Mt.11:30).

 

"2 Corinthians 3:3 "Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart." (KJV)

Of course...and for Paul, the Spirit leads us, in the New Covenant, to obey all words of Torah "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27).  That includes Levitical Torah portions!

 

blessings

 

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

I do not believe that I am disrespecting Torah or Christ's desires.  I believe "the priesthood being changed, there is of necessity also a change of the Law".

I have NOT said that you "are at risk of the bad side" because you don't see what I see. 

Not nice BibleGuy.  Let's not accuse each other.  Let's just state our opinions and pray for each other.  OK? 

I'm not one who believes that we have to be "perfect" (or have perfect doctrine) to be saved.  That is what Christ's covering/forgiveness is for.  We just look to HIM and ask HIM to teach us and guide us. 

I know you sincerely believe what you've shared with me.  I respect your views, even if I don't agree with them. 

Hi there!  Thanks, again, for your comments!

 

"I have NOT said that you "are at risk of the bad side" because you don't see what I see. "

Ok....first.....you are "seeing" anti-Torah theology.  That's bad!

The warnings are against those who CHANGE or ALTER or SUBTRACT or MODIFY or CANCEL or TERMINATE Torah portions (as your theology does....)

Remember the warnings?   Mt. 5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;Dt.4:2;12:32;Rev.22:18-19;Jos.1:7;Pr.30:6.

I'm emphasizing 100% of ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8)....whereas you claim some Torah portions are CHANGED (thus SUBTRACTED or MODIFIED or CANCELED).

The warnings apply to YOUR theology, not mine.

That's why you have no grounds for warning me as I must warn you.

 

And, you haven't even adequately addressed my objections to your "the priesthood was changed" argument....

Remember?

1. I already showed you that the "change" of Heb. 7:12 (Gr. " μετατίθημι ") can mean TO GO OR PASS OVER (not necessarily TRANSPOSE or SUBSTITUTE or REPLACE).

2. Heb. 7:12 has Jesus PASSING OVER the Levitical Priesthood rules...and functioning in accordance with the Melchizedek Priesthood rules...because Jesus is not a Levite! (not because Levitical Torah is terminated).

3. The writer of Hebrews has the Levitical Priesthood CONTINUING even into the New-Covenant era (Heb.7:28;8:3-5;8:10;9:6-7,9,22,25;10:1,11,16), so the writer of Hebrews is obviously not envisioning a CHANGE of Torah instructions regarding Levitical service.

4. INSTEAD (Heb. " תַּחַת ", Nu.3:12) is IN PLACE OF, not a CHANGE from a previous methodology.

5. Jesus comes to restore Levitical sacrifices (Mal.3:4) to fulfill the Davidic Covenant (Jer.33), Sabbath (Is.66), Sukkot for all nations (Zec.14), in the temple (Eze.40-47) He comes to rebuild (Zec.6), when we again obey 100% of ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8).

6. Jesus DESIRES sacrifices on behalf of people from all nations (Mk.11:17 citing Is.56:7).

7. Jesus requires ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) for all disciples of all nations (Mt.28:19-20).

 

"Not nice BibleGuy. "

I know it's "in your face"...but Jesus was also "in your face" when rebuking anti-Torah religion (Mt.23).

And, Scripture requires that I rebuke you (Lev.19:17;Lk.17:3;2Ti.3:16), lest I be guilty of condoning/sharing in your sin.....because SIN is violation of Torah (Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4;Is.42:24)...and your theology VIOLATES Torah portions which prescribe required Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial service.

 

" Let's not accuse each other.  Let's just state our opinions and pray for each other.  OK? "

Christian duty includes more than prayer and opinion-sharing.

Scripture requires rebuke (Lev.19:17;Lk.17:3;2Ti.3:16).

Feel free to rebuke me in return, explaining why my position is incorrect....it's ok!  I'll only thank you for correcting/rebuking/training me if I'm wrong....

But you see, we're not just playing opinion-sharing games....

We're not just choosing to "believe" whatever we prefer....

We must subject our beliefs to Scripture....

It's very important to do this....much is at stake.

I love you enough to warn you....even if it threatens our friendship....

That's what friends do.

I'd rather you walk away from me, knowing I've warned you....rather than remain friends under the delusion that it's ok for us to simply "state our opinions and pray"...

Christian duty requires more than that.

As James Dobson said....sometimes love must be tough.

 

"I'm not one who believes that we have to be "perfect" (or have perfect doctrine) to be saved. "

I never said perfect doctrine is required to be saved...rather, we are simply urged to PERSEVERE in our doctrine so as to insure salvation (1Ti.4:16).

Everybody is at a different place in their doctrinal understanding....that's ok!

I doubt the thief on the cross knew too much at all about many Scriptural things....yet the Messiah assured him of paradise.

But, when we encounter resistance to Scriptural truth in a brother...well...this must be dealt with....and I know it's tough.

 

"That is what Christ's covering/forgiveness is for.  We just look to HIM and ask HIM to teach us and guide us. "

Yes.

And we can also help to save others (1Ti.4:16).

 

" I respect your views, even if I don't agree with them. "

Ok then...we can talk about something else, then....and leave it at that....

 

blessings...

 

 

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16 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

You're being PERSONAL again BibleGuy.  How can we have good discussions, if you make it personal? 

I was just speculating that your opposition to ongoing Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah portions could be a hangover from your past SDA involvement with Ellen White's writings which likewise oppose ongoing Levitical/ceremonial/sacrifical Torah portions.

And ALL our beliefs are PERSONAL beliefs....because we are PERSONS!

So of course our discussions about beliefs are personal...

But if you'd rather move on to a different subject, we can do that.

 

blessings...

 

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16 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

And I urge you to pray about it.  As I will, and have. 

I cannot "embrace" a position unless/until I fully agree with it.  Which is OK.  Study takes time.  Paul studied for years and years AFTER He met Christ on the Damascus road, before He felt ready to argue with the "scholars" of His day.   

Granted....we can move on to another subject then, if you like.

blessings...

 

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