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On 12/4/2019 at 6:01 AM, Still Alive said:

I think OT Israel lived in constant fear of offending God. Jesus brought a better way. We call it the "good news" and the "gospel". We can go before him boldly. We are heirs. 

https://www.openbible.info/topics/boldness

"I think OT Israel lived in constant fear of offending God. Jesus brought a better way."

Jesus requires the SAME TORAH (Mt.5:19) for ALL ISRAEL (Mal.4:4).

Jesus thus requires the SAME FEAR OF GOD (Dt.17:19;28:58;31:12;Mt.10:28).

 

"We call it the "good news" and the "gospel"."

The gospel of FAITH preached by Paul is a TORAH-OBEDIENT word of faith (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

The SAME TORAH OF MOSES (Jer.31:33) passes into the NEW Covenant (Heb.8:10) inaugurated by Jesus (Lk.22:20).

Torah is not new!

Jesus says Torah-obedience is a sufficient condition of eternal life (Lk.10:25-28).

 

"We can go before him boldly. We are heirs. "

We are heirs (Eph.3:6) who share in the promised LAND-INHERITANCE (Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29) which we will inherit when we return to inherit the land promised to us, when we again obey 100% of ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8).

Dt. 30:1-8 is a yet future prophecy, after all.

It has not happened yet.

We Israelites are STILL in diaspora, just as in Jas.1:1.

 

 

 

Edited by BibleGuy
typo

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11 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

Welll...feel free to keep us informed re: what you learn about Heiser's viewpoint....

But I think Jesus is smarter than Heiser....

And Jesus upholds the full authority of the Torah and Prophets (Mt.5:18), even though Heiser might be deluded into thinking he can doubt that authority.

So, I'll go with Jesus, not Heiser.

 

I have listened to hundreds of hours of Dr. Heiser. I do not find him far off in most areas. He has opinions yet he studies peer review scholarship which few preachers, teachers or 'theologians' of today can be bothered to do. Heiser gives us the choice to take on board what we wish and he just researches the veracity of things he studies.

Edited by Justin Adams

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1 minute ago, BibleGuy said:

"I think OT Israel lived in constant fear of offending God. Jesus brought a better way."

Jesus requires the SAME TORAH (Mt.5:19) for ALL ISRAEL (Mal.4:4).

Jesus thus requires the SAME FEAR OF GOD (Dt.17:19;28:58;31:12;Mt.10:28).

 

"We call it the "good news" and the "gospel"."

The gospel of FAITH preached by Paul is a TORAH-OBEDIENT word of faith (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

The SAME TORAH OF MOSES (Jer.31:33) passes into the NEW Covenant (Heb.8:10) inaugurated by Jesus (Lk.22:20).

Torah is not new!

Jesus says Torah-obedience is a sufficient condition of eternal life (Lk.10:25-28).

 

"We can go before him boldly. We are heirs. "

We are heir (Eph.3:6) who share in the promised LAND-INHERITANCE (Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29) which we will inherit when we return to inherit the land promised to us, when we again obey 100% of ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8).

Dt. 30:1-8 is a yet future prophecy, after all.

It has not happened yet.

We Israelites are STILL in diaspora, just as in Jas.1:1.

 

 

 

I think you have made it very clear where you stand on this issue. I've thrown out a few points but have invested as much time in this discussion as I have time for. 

I expect we will both continue to study and search for as much of the personality of our creator and his desire for each of us in the short life he has given us. For now, we seem to disagree on some stuff, but suffice it to say that we both believe that our salvation is based on our belief in his sacrifice as atonement for our sins and our single doorway to eternal life with our creator. 

Thanks for a stimulating discussion.

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4 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

You are so ripe for the third Temple in Jerusalem and false messiah, it's truly shocking.  Sadly that's what the Hebrew Roots deception is leading many to.  It's Judaizing all over again....nothing new under the sun.  Somebody needs to nail a copy of the book of Galations on your doors.

Isa 66:3

He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their ABOMINATIONS.

You are lifting up Torah as though it is your god, and are proud of it.  Cult spirit all over you, I'm sorry to say...what strong delusion is made of.  Instead we are to lift up and glorify Christ and follow HIM.  What is the simplicity of the gospel all about?  It's not a checklist of hundreds of do's and don't's but a simple Way.....a walking after the Spirit of Christ.  Christ IN us the hope of glory, not Torah the hope of glory.  We are to submit to the righteousness of Christ not seeking to establish our own righteousness.

(Paul, a Jew, only practiced the Law at times for the sake of expediency ONLY, in order to not put an unnecessary stumbling block in the way of unbelieving Jews.  He didn't do it because of thinking God required it of him or any Blood washed believer in Christ/Yeshua.   Jewish believers may practice Law keeping for expediency sake or newer believers until they grow into the understanding that God no longer requires it.  That is why the Law was "fading" away, to allow people time to grow and because the Temple hadn't yet been destroyed which ended animal sacrifice.  Imagine someone already washed in the blood of Christ forever, killing and bleeding out an animal in order to atone for their sins for a year....that is belittling and trampling the blood of Jesus underfoot! )

 

"You are so ripe for the third Temple in Jerusalem and false messiah, it's truly shocking.  "

I never said the Third Temple won't have a false messiah....

I look forward to the FOURTH Temple which the TRUE Messiah will build (Zec.6) when He restores Levitical sacrifices (Mal.3:4) to fulfill the Davidic Covenant (Jer.33), Sabbath (Is.66), in that temple (Eze.40-47), with Sukkot required for all nations (Zec.14), when we believers again obey 100% of ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8).

 

"It's Judaizing all over again....nothing new under the sun.  "

Judaizing is BAD.  Remember Peter's hypocrisy? 

I REJECT Judaizing.

I UPHOLD Jesus who requires ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

You DO believe Mt. 5:19...right?

 

Is.66:3?  Of COURSE God oppose sacrifices done WRONGLY....that's why sacrifices should be done CORRECTLY (Ps. 51:19), not INCORRECTLY (Ps.51:16).  And Paul applies Psalms to YOU (Eph.5:19); Psalms require TORAH (Ps.1;19;119).

 

And don't stop at Is.66:3!  Keep reading!  God is VERY ANGRY at those who eat pork (Is.66:17)...do YOU eat pork?  I hope not!  Peter applies Lev. 11 to you (1Pe.1:16).

 

Is. 66:21 has the RESTORATION of the Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial activities....so it's coming back (as God desires) whether you like it or not!

 

"You are lifting up Torah as though it is your god, and are proud of it. "

Rather, Torah-obedience is what HUMBLE people do (Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3;Ex.33:13).....you got that backwards, friend!

And, Jesus IS the Torah (Jn.1:14)...and Jesus is divine.

 

"Cult spirit all over you, I'm sorry to say...what strong delusion is made of."

Your bogus insult is my reward...thank you! (Mt. 5:11-12).

Does Jesus have a "cult spirit"? (Mt.5:19)

Does Jesus have a "strong delusion"? (Mt.5:19)

 

"Instead we are to lift up and glorify Christ and follow HIM. "

Good point!  Let's uphold CHRIST who requires TORAH (Mt.4:4;5:19-20,48;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28;etc.)

After all, Christ shed His very BLOOD to inaugurate the New Covenant for you (Lk.22:20)...and that New Covenant is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

Surely you don't oppose the very Torah of the New Covenant in which you partake...right?

 

"What is the simplicity of the gospel all about?  "

Who said all the things of God are simple?  (Rom.11:33;Is.55:9).

And the GOSPEL is the word of faith preached by Paul....which is TORAH-OBEDIENT FAITH (citing Dt.30:14 at Rom.10:8)....that's pretty simple!  Believe and obey!  SIMPLE!

 

" It's not a checklist of hundreds of do's and don't's"

Jesus was NOT joking....(Lk.10:25-28)

 

"but a simple Way"

TORAH is the WAY of God (1Ki.2:3).  That's WHY the first believers were called THE WAY (Ac.9:2;19;23;etc)....because Jesus (who is the WAY) fulfills Mk.1:3 which cites Is.40 which refers to TORAH which is the WAY!

 

"a walking after the Spirit of Christ."

Ah yes....the SPIRIT who testifies we obey TORAH (Heb.10:15-16).

The SPIRIT who leads us to obey all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27).

The SPIRIT who was upon Stephen (Ac.6) who required the Torah of Moses.

The SPIRIT upon Paul who required all Torah (Mt.5:19).

The SPIRIT who oppose the flesh (Rom.8:13); and the flesh oppose Torah (Rom.8:9); so the Spirit opposes Torah-disobedience.  So OBEY Torah in the Spirit, as you should!  After all, Paul serves the Torah too (Rom.7:25).

The Spirit of CHRIST who requires Torah (Mt.4:4;5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28).

I LOVE that Spirit!

 

"Christ IN us the hope of glory, not Torah the hope of glory.  "

False dichotomy....Christ IS the Torah (Jn.1:14).

And our HOPE is by virtue of inclusion in the COVENANTS (Eph.2:12) which are given as TORAH (e.g., Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

 

"We are to submit to the righteousness of Christ not seeking to establish our own righteousness."

EXACTLY!  We should NOT seek righteousness by our own faithless works.

Rather, we should DO righteousness (1Jn.2:29;3:7) or else we are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10).

After all, CHRIST tells us that if we do not DO righteousness BETTER than the corrupted Pharisees....well...then we will NOT inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20).

Again, CHRIST applies Dt. 6 to you (Mt.22:37).  And Dt. 6 (in CONTEXT!) requires ALL Torah as our righteousness (Dt.6:25).

Again, John agrees we should DO righteousness (1Jn.2:29;3:7) in obedience to Torah (1Jn.2:3;5;3).

 

"Paul, a Jew, only practiced the Law at times for the sake of expediency ONLY, in order to not put an unnecessary stumbling block in the way of unbelieving Jews.  "

Rather, Paul condoned an animal-sacrifice-laden vow to prove he "walked orderly according to the law"; and Paul REQUIRES that you imitate that model (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

Again, Paul applies ALL Torah to you (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19).

Paul says we who do the law will be justified (Rom.2:13).

Paul affirms the legitimacy of Torah-obedient Gentiles (Rom.2:27).

Paul says Gentiles are ISRAELITES (citing Hos. 1 at Rom.9:24-26)...and Israelites obey TORAH (Mal.4:4;Jer.31:31-33;Heb.8:8-10).

Paul says STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34), which means OBEY TORAH (given Rom.3:20;7:7).

 

"He didn't do it because of thinking God required it of him or any Blood washed believer in Christ/Yeshua.  "

That's just your (incorrect) opinion.

See above.

 

" Jewish believers may practice Law keeping for expediency sake or newer believers until they grow into the understanding that God no longer requires it. "

Rather, Jesus requires ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

Please STOP opposing what Jesus requires.

After all, the New Covenant is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

 

" That is why the Law was "fading" away, to allow people time to grow and because the Temple hadn't yet been destroyed which ended animal sacrifice."

Rather, the Old COVENANT passes away (Heb.8:13).

But the SAME TORAH OF MOSES passes into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10).

NEW Covenant (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).

SAME Torah (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

And Jesus comes to RESTORE sacrifices "as in the days of old, as in former years" (Mal.3:4)....so STOP opposing what Jesus desires to restore!

Jesus desires sacrifices for people of all nations (citing Is.56:7 at Mk.11:17)....so STOP opposing what Jesus desires!

Jesus will rebuild the temple (Zec.6) with sacrifices (Eze.40-47) required even for all nations (Zec.14) and for ALL of us as Israelites (Dt.30:1-8) to fulfill the Davidic Covenant (Jer.33) and Sabbath (Is.66).

So please STOP pretending that Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah portions are terminated....

 

" Imagine someone already washed in the blood of Christ forever, killing and bleeding out an animal in order to atone for their sins for a year....that is belittling and trampling the blood of Jesus underfoot! "

To the contrary, that is the very PRACTICE of the 1st-century church! (Ac.6:7;21:20).

The shadow IS (present tense, Col.2:17, Heb.10:1) an ONGOING Torah function.  

Torah points to Messiah (Dt.18:15).

Messiah points to Torah (Mt.4:4;5:19-20,48;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28).

 

Remember, Levitical service does not REPLACE the Melchizedek service...

Rather, they BOTH function SIMULTANEOUSLY....

Of course, the Melchizedek service is superior and better....

 

Levitical service merely atones/covers for sin....

Christ's blood (as a Melchizedek priest) fully takes sins away.

 

But BOTH priesthoods function simultaneously.  Otherwise, you've opposed a BOATLOAD of Scripture...and I don't think you want to go there....

 

blessings...

 

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38 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

I have listened to hundreds of hours of Dr. Heiser. I do not find him far off in most areas. He has opinions yet he studies peer review scholarship which few preachers, teachers or 'theologians' of today can be bothered to do. Heiser gives us the choice to take on board what we wish and he just researches the veracity of things he studies.

It's great to be informed....but when skeptical or liberal or non-conservative theology corrupts your heart, then you've FAILED to honor God properly in all truth.

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37 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

I think you have made it very clear where you stand on this issue. I've thrown out a few points but have invested as much time in this discussion as I have time for. 

I expect we will both continue to study and search for as much of the personality of our creator and his desire for each of us in the short life he has given us. For now, we seem to disagree on some stuff, but suffice it to say that we both believe that our salvation is based on our belief in his sacrifice as atonement for our sins and our single doorway to eternal life with our creator. 

Thanks for a stimulating discussion.

blessings to you as well.....

 

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On 12/3/2019 at 11:33 AM, Still Alive said:

I love Hebrews. It so nails legalism to the wall. Of course it does! Who was it written to? :)

True!  Legalism is obeying law (without faith) for salvation.

But Heb. 8:10 requires TORAH for New Covenant participants....and TORAH requires FAITH (Dt.18:15;32:20) in obedience to all Torah instructions (Dt.6:25).

So OPPOSE legalism...and OBEY all Torah in faith!

Good point!

 

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On 12/4/2019 at 7:07 AM, Justin Adams said:

While the Torah reveals God's ideas about how we should be cleansed before Him, the ordinances and sacrifices are done away with at the cross of Yeshua. I get a really unhealthy feeling about any need for a temple since we are told WE are the temple of God and His laws are written in our hearts. To sacrifice animals to God is an insult to Yeshua. He is our sacrifice and Torah points to Him. It is absurd to consider sacrificing to God and a the apostle says, "making Yeshua's crucifixion of no account". An insult and a very dangerous thing to do. We do NOT need another temple and its sacrificial system. This is what Hebrews is all about. Why on earth do we want to perform this abomination before Yahweh?? Just like YOGA is an insult to God..

Hi there!

"the ordinances and sacrifices are done away with at the cross of Yeshua. "

Rather, the Spirit leads us to obey ALL Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27).

The Messiah comes to RESTORE the sacrifices (Mal.3:4).

Our 100% obedience to ALL Torah will happen! (Dt.30:1-8).

Paul CONDONED (not OPPOSED) a sacrifice-laden vow (Ac.21).

Thousands of Christians were zealous for ALL Torah (thus including sacrifices, Ac.21:20).

Some Christians are even animal-sacrificing priests! (Ac.6:7)

Sacrifices CONTINUE into the future (Dt.30:1-8;Zec.6;Zec.14;Mal.3;Jer.33;Is.66;Eze.40-47).

 

"I get a really unhealthy feeling about any need for a temple"

Then change your feelings!  Jesus comes to REBUILD the temple (Zec.6) and sacrifices will happen in that temple! (Eze.40-47)

 

"To sacrifice animals to God is an insult to Yeshua."

Rather, Yeshua comes to RESTORE those very Levitical covenant sacrifices "as in the days of old, as in former years" (Mal.3:4)....because Yeshua desires sacrifices for people from all nations (citing Is.56:7 at Mk.11:17).

 

"He is our sacrifice and Torah points to Him. "

Agreed!

And Yeshua points us straight back to TORAH! (Dt. 18:15; Mt.4:4;5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28)....otherwise Yeshua is a FALSE PROPHET (given Dt. 18:15+Dt.13:1-5).....DON'T go there.

 

"It is absurd to consider sacrificing to God"

It's a DELIGHT to God (Ps. 51:19)....and Paul applies this to YOU (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16).

 

" the apostle says, "making Yeshua's crucifixion of no account". "

Rather, Paul requires that you IMITATE (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9) his Torah-obedient model (proven in Ac. 21 where Paul CONDONED an animal-sacrifice-laden vow).

 

"An insult and a very dangerous thing to do."

Rather, you need to come into alignment with the Scriptures I've set before you here.

 

"We do NOT need another temple and its sacrificial system. "

You gonna tell that to Jesus when he rebuilds it? (Zec.6) with sacrifices? (Eze.40-47)....

Ummm.....I recommend you submit to Scripture.

 

"This is what Hebrews is all about. "

Heb.8:10 confirms ALL THE TORAH OF MOSES (Jer.31:33) passes into the NEW Covenant (citing Jer.31:33 at Heb.8:10).

NEW Covenant (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).

SAME Torah of Moses (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

 

" Why on earth do we want to perform this abomination before Yahweh?? Just like YOGA is an insult to God.."

Again.....you've given no Scripture to support your opinions.

Please come into alignment with Scripture.

Thanks....

 

  • Huh?  I don't get it. 1

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