Montana Marv Posted March 30, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,131 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted March 30, 2019 8 hours ago, R. Hartono said: 1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. TELL ME HOW COULD THE ALIVE AND REMAIN ABOVE BE PUT TO DEATH LIKE THIS : Rev 20:4 and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. There is a resurrection of the Just and a resurrection for the Unjust. The First and the Second resurrection s. Now it only depends on how many entries there are into the First or resurrection for the Just. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jostler Posted March 30, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 25 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 16 Joined: 01/19/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted March 30, 2019 (edited) 14 hours ago, R. Hartono said: 1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. TELL ME HOW COULD THE ALIVE AND REMAIN ABOVE BE PUT TO DEATH LIKE THIS : Rev 20:4 and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Obviously they aren't. Which excludes them from the first resurrection, though they fit quite nicely with all the requirements for the second. On the last day, just as Jesus Himself promised. This is assumed by many to be a rapture verse and it's subjected to a variety of assumed interpretations depending on where personal philosophy demands it fit...pre- mid- or post....or whatever. Making a careful comparison of both relevant verses 16 and 17 and Revelation 21: Quote 1Th 4:16-17 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.  Quote Rev 21:1-2 ¶ Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. There is a great deal happening right around the Great White Throne Judgement. And a lot of it seems to be "handled" by God (gr. theos). Many overlook the fact that Jesus isn't the only member of the Trinity with a "second coming". Father has one planned for Himself as well and this is it...the final "act" in the "restoration of all things" in which Father who came to earth in the Garden of Eden, is "coming again" to finally take up the restored Kingdom and His rightful place in the midst of a fully restored Creation. It's a lot easier to read this as it is, and assume that the "dead in Christ" are coming back WITH FATHER as He descends with the New Jerusalem, just as verse 14 previously told us: Quote 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. Again "theos" - Father I'll leave it with this the following in an attempt to avoid a huge post nobody will read - but here are some significant events, ALL of which harmonize into a single picture without the slightest 'mash to fit' application of assumptions: 1. Final rebellion at the end of the Millennial Reign 2. Fire comes down and the renewal of the earth begins 3. Father is returning bringing the dead in Christ with Him 4. the sky rolls up like a scroll - marking the "last day" on which Jesus promised He would raise the dead 5.  The dead in Christ rise first , those alive and remaining are "translated" through death in the twinkling of an eye, "changed in an instant" - corruption thrown off and incorruption put on. All of the dead (who were not participants in the first resurrection), those who are alive and remain and Jesus Himself rise to meet Father - and so shall we ever be with the Lord (Jesus and/or Father, take your pick (gr. kyrios) 6. The Great White Throne Judgement commences after all the dead are raised from the sea, death and Hades. Each is judged according to his works and then death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire. The final book is opened, the Lamb's Book of Life and those not found in it are also cast into the Lake of Fire. 7. The last enemy (death) is finally put under Jesus' feet, which is the final event in Jesus' solitary reign. He can now turn His Kingdom back to Father for whom He died so that all might be restored to Him. 8. The renewed heavens and earth appear and the New Jerusalem is "ported" into this three dimensional realm at Jerusalem, and once more Eden is restored with whatever barrier between heaven and earth exists now ...removed. If there's any interest, probing deeper into details is certainly possible to do  It all fits, no need for assumptions, or "mash to fit" interpretations. We're not forced to imagine some twisted idea of how people born during the Millennial Reign are saved, not forced to come up with some theology that says the "church" (Body) has somehow been closed prior to this, and there's no necessity of explaining away the Holy Spirit and denying He's even present on the earth, at any point since the cross. Just reading the Word for what it says and letting it interpret itself is much, much simpler and easier. Edited March 30, 2019 by Jostler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted March 31, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,131 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted March 31, 2019 On 3/29/2019 at 5:28 PM, Jostler said:  perhaps. But I think I already understand that pretty well. There are two kinds of death. We're born into the second death.....dead spirits cut off from fellowship with God. The new birth fixes that one. The ultimate end of the second death (lake of fire) is fully overcome at that point. But there's still natural death of this body to go through. And that is the death overcome by the resurrection. There is a very good reason for why death is the last enemy to be put under His feet. The power of physical death to HOLD us is also broken at the new birth. But it's still appointed unto all men to die...and THEN comes judgement. Being born again doesn't mean we escape that....just that it cannot hold us.  Those dead in Christ and Alive in Christ all have the New Birth in them and were/all filled with the Holy Spirit as promised in Acts 1:4,8. This is the Church or Bride of Christ. Now there are many Just OT Saints who were residing in Paradise near Hades until the ascension of Christ. Not of the Church and not promised to be filled with the H.S. and thus did not have the new birth. Then there are those of Israel who are God's chosen nation, which also were in Paradise. Two separate and distinct groups here. None indwelt by the H.S. Then if you fast forward into the Mill, those living are not indwelt by the H.S.. Israel has had all their sins forgiven and no lie comes out of their mouths. Yet the other nations still sin, Christ must rule them with a rod of iron, they came out from the great tribulation. Many of those from other nations stay or follow Christ, example (Isa 19:23-25 - Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance) most from the nations follow Satan at the final moment. Christ is ruling over all these parties, so none have been filled with the H.S. None can be considered dead in Christ or alive in Christ. For those of the Bride and those who were beheaded will reign with Christ during the 1000 years. Now one must consider how many entries there are into the First Resurrection, or the Resurrection for the Just. Not all go in at the same time. Those dead in Christ and alive in Christ (which are the Bride) go into the First Resurrection first. Second are those under the Altar in Rev 6:9-11 and 20:4 to go into the First Resurrection. Third are those of Israel who will arise to receive their allotted inheritance at the end (Dan 12:13). Then rest of the Just (those who live and are alive during the Mill, both of Israel and not of Israel will partake in the First Resurrection at the end of the Mill. All those whose name is not written in the Lambs Book of Life will partake in the resurrection for the Unjust, or the Second resurrection. They are cast into the Lake of Fire where the beast and false prophet are and where Satan and all the fallen angels will reside. Sin and Death are gone. Then the New Heavens and the New Earth can be established and the New Jerusalem can come down to earth. In Christ Montana Marv  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jostler Posted March 31, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 25 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 16 Joined: 01/19/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted March 31, 2019 22 minutes ago, Montana Marv said: Those dead in Christ and Alive in Christ all have the New Birth in them and were/all filled with the Holy Spirit as promised in Acts 1:4,8. This is the Church or Bride of Christ. Now there are many Just OT Saints who were residing in Paradise near Hades until the ascension of Christ. Not of the Church and not promised to be filled with the H.S. and thus did not have the new birth. Then there are those of Israel who are God's chosen nation, which also were in Paradise. Two separate and distinct groups here. None indwelt by the H.S. Then if you fast forward into the Mill, those living are not indwelt by the H.S.. Israel has had all their sins forgiven and no lie comes out of their mouths. Yet the other nations still sin, Christ must rule them with a rod of iron, they came out from the great tribulation. Many of those from other nations stay or follow Christ, example (Isa 19:23-25 - Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance) most from the nations follow Satan at the final moment. Christ is ruling over all these parties, so none have been filled with the H.S. None can be considered dead in Christ or alive in Christ. For those of the Bride and those who were beheaded will reign with Christ during the 1000 years. Now one must consider how many entries there are into the First Resurrection, or the Resurrection for the Just. Not all go in at the same time. Those dead in Christ and alive in Christ (which are the Bride) go into the First Resurrection first. Second are those under the Altar in Rev 6:9-11 and 20:4 to go into the First Resurrection. Third are those of Israel who will arise to receive their allotted inheritance at the end (Dan 12:13). Then rest of the Just (those who live and are alive during the Mill, both of Israel and not of Israel will partake in the First Resurrection at the end of the Mill. All those whose name is not written in the Lambs Book of Life will partake in the resurrection for the Unjust, or the Second resurrection. They are cast into the Lake of Fire where the beast and false prophet are and where Satan and all the fallen angels will reside. Sin and Death are gone. Then the New Heavens and the New Earth can be established and the New Jerusalem can come down to earth. In Christ Montana Marv  I think this is an excellent example of why so many of our eschatalogical discussions have to end (in this format at least) without much in the way of satisfying results. We all, every last one of us (me included) bring to the table a whole paradigm of "understanding" it took us years to develop. Somewhere back in the process of building that paradigm we've all been forced to make some assumptions.   If any one of those assumptions, from either side of a viewpoint is less than wholly Scripture, and/or less than perfectly understood, then a measure of confusion gets introduced.  And of course nobody that loves the Lord ever does that intentionally .  We do the best we know how to do with a limited mind, peering through a dark glass and trying to understand what we see. Thankfully the basics that determine our ultimate destination are clear and understandable enough for a five year old to grasp. There are a number of things that affect this and one is the fact that God did not provide allll the prophecies in Scripture for the purpose of informing us with 100% certainty and clarity exactly what the future holds. We have an enemy, and He's a good Commander. He gives us enough, what we need to know to be "in position", where we should be and properly armed and supplied to do the job He's assigned to us during OUR appointed time on this battlefield. But He doesn't give enough revelation of His plans for the enemy to be able to piece it all together and set counterplans in motion to thwart Him. And in fact His wisdom is such that, over and over, the enemy's moves actually end up accomplishing HIS purposes and advancing HIS plans. This will be found to the praise of His wisdom for all eternity. Satan's greatest challenges and moves he thought would be massively devastating blows to God's rule consistently end up being turned into satan's greatest defeats. The Cross is probably the central and primary example, but satan's challenges of God's covenant with Abraham, his assault on Job, even the whole Genesis 6 issue have all backfired, horrifically. But satan would never have crucified the King of Glory had he properly understood the real consequences of Jesus' death. Quote 1Co 2:6-8 ¶ Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 1Co 2:8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; Why did "they" not understand? It's because this "wisdom" was hidden from them in a mystery.  And it was hidden from men too....not hidden from us but hidden in Him FOR us. This mystery of "Christ in you" was NOT understood by man or satan until after the fact. Why? Because every prophecy that alluded to it was scattered all over the OT in such a way nobody could begin to put the pieces together into a full picture until AFTER THE FACT. The Scribes and Pharisees....keepers of the precious trust of the Word of God, had enough to go on to identify WHO Jesus was (and did so, and rejected Him anyway) even they didn't understand the details of His working nor did they understand "Christ in you" was His plan and purpose in His first advent. Only with the benefit of HINDSIGHT can we see all that clearly in the Old Testament prophecies. Which makes me assume that not all prophecy is intended to inform us with 100% certainty exactly how the future will unfold. Over and over God holds up PROPHECY as HIS distinctive. He literally mocks diviners, soothsayers and mages that try to predict the future. It's mankind's surest proof of who He is and His perfect reliability. When thousands years of prophetic utterance comes together ....finally....in EXACTLY the way it was prophesied, we can then look allll the way back there and see God waving at us. "See? I'm here....all the way back here....I knew, I am Who I say I am and what I say comes to pass. Perfectly, every time. And you can fully trust everything else I've ever said that you don't fully comprehend yet. It will come to pass and when it does you'll understand." So, we make some of the mistakes those in Jesus' day made. Almost to a man, from the Sanhedrin to the simple farmer, had an expectation that Messiah would appear as a conquering King, come to restore Israel as the head of nations. And they missed, overlooked all the prophecies that pointed to the suffering servant, the pure Lamb who was slain. Didn't matter how clearly all that was portrayed in utterance or in Temple worship symbolism. It still got overlooked. We're going to find it's little different today. MUCH of what is vigorously defended today will be proven wrong in significant ways by unfolding events. But we still have a responsibility to keep TRYING to understand (and in some cases teach) accurately what He HAS revealed, and furthermore IS REVEALING. Daniel has a REALLY interesting thing to tell us about our day...the day we're living in. Quote Dan 12:8-9 As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, “My lord, what will be the outcome of these events? He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time." A great deal of 'end times' prophecy interpretation has run hard up against this truth right here. If we drag in a bit of the context, we see Daniel here in the presence of a heavenly messenger who has just given Daniel this incredible, sweeping view of the end times.  It's a massive vision...a sweeping multilayered revelation across literally thousands of years of human history some of which are historical to us, some of which have seen partial fulfillments already, and some that won't be complete until the end of the Millennial Reign. But at the time the Daniel was just confused by it all. He couldn't make heads or tails of what he'd seen. So like any of us might have done he simply asked for some clarification. And the angel refused to provide it. He simply told Daniel in so many words "Just write it down, go about the rest of your life. This is not for you to understand. The Spirit has reserved understanding of this to a future people. NOBODY will understand this UNTIL...the time of the end" I am pretty sure that in days preceding now good, well meaning men of God have sought to understand things the Holy Spirit was simply not willing to reveal, and pushing beyond that, accidently got off into speculation and assumption, resulting in so much of the confusion we see today surrounding these topics. But are we in that time, are we now close enough to the end of the age that He IS willing to begin revealing the hidden understanding He sealed up in Daniel's day? Even that is arguable, but I do believe He is ready to reveal and in fact is doing so. I know when I got a revelation of the fact that there WERE "hidden" revelations that simply were not going to be understood until the time He appointed them to be revealed, I pointedly asked He reveal anything He was willing to ...to me. I want to know and if He's willing to tell someone now, stuff He's never been willing to say in the hearing of man before now, then i want to know what it is. First thing He did was absolutely wreck my pretty pre-trib sermon. Just brutally dismantled it verse by verse  I found a lot of other "revelation" I thought I had falling apart at about the same time, and being identified for what it really was....assumptions.  So what can we do? I don't have an answer. Above you reflect some assumptions about salvation, the work and purpose of the Holy Spirit...understanding of the real relationships between humanity and the two kinds of death....all so foreign to my understanding we'd have to spend days upon days discussing EACH of those before we could even get back to this whole issue of how the end times will really unfold. I had my whole previous paradigm utterly destroyed. Disassembled piece by piece and it took Him THREE YEARS to do it. After that I was left with absolutely NOTHING ....and whaddya know, once the floor was cleared of all the trash I'd piled on it, He started building again. It took another three years before I began to think i was beginning to see a coherent picture emerge again. And it was so incredibly different than anything I'd believed before it is still a marvel to me. So, now I've got this whole different paradigm of understanding and it clashes with yours  And some of this new paradigm is based on ASSUMPTIONS. I'm a bit more aware of where those are, and cling to those very lightly now, but they're there. And arguable. Do I have it all right yet? Oh almost certainly not. All I can do is share what I fully believe He has shared with me, and my testimony of how He showed it to me (which is something I may end up sharing more of at some point). I know in this process, over and over He has demanded that I take His Word as He wrote it, with a determined focus on adding nothing to it and taking nothing away from it. Every misunderstanding He's dismantled for me so far has involved an assumption on my part. Adding to or explaining away one part or another, never once intentionally dishonoring His Word, yet it's still what I did, honorable INTENTION or not. Even saying that literalism can be taken too far as well  There obviously are symbolic references, types and shadows, parables.....none of which were ever intended to be read literally. So even literalism has to be bounded by revelation and understanding. I can share two "events" from my own testimony that were "landmarks". One was the realization that almost without exception, the end times teaching I'd been exposed to ran right out to the end of Revelation 19 and Jesus second coming....and stopped. Period.  When He pointed out that there were still 1000 years of human history left to unfold AFTER His return, and that ALL that needed to be integrated and understood in order to gain a fuller, more accurate picture....it was a life changing revelation. I'd NEVER heard a full sermon on the Millennial Reign and still today understanding/teaching of it is rare. And when you do begin to explore just what there is to be understood about that time it was surprising to me just how much information the Bible contains about it. The vast majority of it is in the OT too.  So some might want to begin there. It's important, and it's a topic that has long been overlooked and neglected. But it informs and enlightens a whole bunch of other parts of the Bible. Another key event was when He showed me that the RESULT of most end times teaching was fear. And pointed out He NEVER uses fear in any way, for any purpose in the lives of His people. So if supposedly inspired preaching were bearing that kind of fruit, SOMETHING is not right with it. We've failed to teach Revelation as a "revealing" of Jesus Christ. We have been guilty of teaching it with an unspoken and unintentional but very flawed perspective....as if Revelation were a revealing of the beast and his plans and purposes. And fear has been the result This post from above:  Is a very anemic, incomplete portion of a rather incredible "whole". But it's a starting point. If we can accept the precision and literal information presented in the very clear description of two resurrections, and begin comparing ALL the other resurrection passages to those as our start point, I predict you'll find that all the other verses we've layered over with all this vast number of varied assumptions, fit right into one of these two resurrections. We can utterly throw away the introduction of a latin word into the conversation and get back to just referring to things as the Bible does....resurrections. We don't need a "rapture" to describe an event that the Bible clearly defines as simply part of a resurrection. It's all one resurrection with slightly different operations depending on whether we're alive in a physical body or not when it happens. Anyway  Marv i have no reason to question your integrity or desire to do His will and share truth  Been there, done that, been dead wrong with all the right motives, and still probably have significant problems already entrained in this new understanding. All I can do is trust that He'll weed those out too as I keep seeking Him. So where does that leave us? I have no idea ..... I guess we each continue to do the best we know how with what we have. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted March 31, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,131 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted March 31, 2019 16 minutes ago, Jostler said: And fear has been the result This post from above: No fear. Just the Facts. The righteous have an eternity with Christ. The unrighteous have an eternity without Christ. One partakes in the First Resurrection, which Jesus Christ was the First Fruit of. Or one partakes in the Other Resurrection, which is of the dead. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jostler Posted March 31, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 25 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 16 Joined: 01/19/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted March 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Montana Marv said: No fear. Just the Facts. The righteous have an eternity with Christ. The unrighteous have an eternity without Christ. One partakes in the First Resurrection, which Jesus Christ was the First Fruit of. Or one partakes in the Other Resurrection, which is of the dead. In Christ Montana Marv All I can do is go back to the fact I can't see your assertions about death or the resurrections portrayed in Scripture at all. AFAIK the two resurrections are clearly defined so unambiguously as to be unmistakable. Spiritual death and physical death are just as clearly explained. We are seeing two completely different things and the two viewpoints are mutually exclusive. I knew few would read that long post  I was asking Him why I even felt led to write it. I have to assume someone, somewhere at some time will derive some benefit from it. You zeroed in on the very least relevant part of that whole thing and brought it up as if that were the main point?    I dunno why but it's pretty obvious to me we're still talking past each other and no real communication is happening at all. I trust it's all in His hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted April 1, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.10 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 1, 2019 On 3/29/2019 at 6:28 PM, Jostler said:  perhaps. But I think I already understand that pretty well. There are two kinds of death. We're born into the second death.....dead spirits cut off from fellowship with God. The new birth fixes that one. The ultimate end of the second death (lake of fire) is fully overcome at that point. But there's still natural death of this body to go through. And that is the death overcome by the resurrection. There is a very good reason for why death is the last enemy to be put under His feet. The power of physical death to HOLD us is also broken at the new birth. But it's still appointed unto all men to die...and THEN comes judgement. Being born again doesn't mean we escape that....just that it cannot hold us.  This is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted April 1, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.10 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 1, 2019 On 3/30/2019 at 12:59 AM, R. Hartono said: 1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. TELL ME HOW COULD THE ALIVE AND REMAIN ABOVE BE PUT TO DEATH LIKE THIS : Rev 20:4 and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. They could not because of the simple fact that they will be caught up before the Beast is even revealed. Good point. However, for millions that call themselves Christians, and believe they are - but are not really born again - they will be left behind and most, of them may well be beheaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted April 1, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.10 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 1, 2019 On 3/30/2019 at 10:06 AM, Jostler said: Obviously they aren't. Which excludes them from the first resurrection, though they fit quite nicely with all the requirements for the second. On the last day, just as Jesus Himself promised. This is assumed by many to be a rapture verse and it's subjected to a variety of assumed interpretations depending on where personal philosophy demands it fit...pre- mid- or post....or whatever. Making a careful comparison of both relevant verses 16 and 17 and Revelation 21:  There is a great deal happening right around the Great White Throne Judgement. And a lot of it seems to be "handled" by God (gr. theos). Many overlook the fact that Jesus isn't the only member of the Trinity with a "second coming". Father has one planned for Himself as well and this is it...the final "act" in the "restoration of all things" in which Father who came to earth in the Garden of Eden, is "coming again" to finally take up the restored Kingdom and His rightful place in the midst of a fully restored Creation. It's a lot easier to read this as it is, and assume that the "dead in Christ" are coming back WITH FATHER as He descends with the New Jerusalem, just as verse 14 previously told us: Again "theos" - Father I'll leave it with this the following in an attempt to avoid a huge post nobody will read - but here are some significant events, ALL of which harmonize into a single picture without the slightest 'mash to fit' application of assumptions: 1. Final rebellion at the end of the Millennial Reign 2. Fire comes down and the renewal of the earth begins 3. Father is returning bringing the dead in Christ with Him 4. the sky rolls up like a scroll - marking the "last day" on which Jesus promised He would raise the dead 5.  The dead in Christ rise first , those alive and remaining are "translated" through death in the twinkling of an eye, "changed in an instant" - corruption thrown off and incorruption put on. All of the dead (who were not participants in the first resurrection), those who are alive and remain and Jesus Himself rise to meet Father - and so shall we ever be with the Lord (Jesus and/or Father, take your pick (gr. kyrios) 6. The Great White Throne Judgement commences after all the dead are raised from the sea, death and Hades. Each is judged according to his works and then death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire. The final book is opened, the Lamb's Book of Life and those not found in it are also cast into the Lake of Fire. 7. The last enemy (death) is finally put under Jesus' feet, which is the final event in Jesus' solitary reign. He can now turn His Kingdom back to Father for whom He died so that all might be restored to Him. 8. The renewed heavens and earth appear and the New Jerusalem is "ported" into this three dimensional realm at Jerusalem, and once more Eden is restored with whatever barrier between heaven and earth exists now ...removed. If there's any interest, probing deeper into details is certainly possible to do  It all fits, no need for assumptions, or "mash to fit" interpretations. We're not forced to imagine some twisted idea of how people born during the Millennial Reign are saved, not forced to come up with some theology that says the "church" (Body) has somehow been closed prior to this, and there's no necessity of explaining away the Holy Spirit and denying He's even present on the earth, at any point since the cross. Just reading the Word for what it says and letting it interpret itself is much, much simpler and easier. Sorry, Jostler, but this post is myth. There is a 70th week BEFORE the millennial reign even begins. And the rapture of the saints comes even before the 70th week. Therefore your theory is over a thousand years off!  You really have put a square peg into a round hole! Your peg was small and it dropped through without a mash to fit. I have a novel idea: why not take John's chronology and just build a theory from Revelation as written? The sky rolling up as a scroll will take place at the 6th seal, which comes before the 70th week!  Please take note that the seals are SEALING a book, to prevent that book from being opened until the requirements are met. You cannot just move a seal willy nilly! They will be opened IN SEQUENCE and when all 7 are opened then the book is opened. What follows in Rev. 8 is what is written inside the book - at that time now unsealed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted April 1, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.10 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 1, 2019 On 3/31/2019 at 10:29 AM, Montana Marv said: Those dead in Christ and Alive in Christ all have the New Birth in them and were/all filled with the Holy Spirit as promised in Acts 1:4,8. This is the Church or Bride of Christ. Now there are many Just OT Saints who were residing in Paradise near Hades until the ascension of Christ. Not of the Church and not promised to be filled with the H.S. and thus did not have the new birth. Then there are those of Israel who are God's chosen nation, which also were in Paradise. Two separate and distinct groups here. None indwelt by the H.S. Then if you fast forward into the Mill, those living are not indwelt by the H.S.. Israel has had all their sins forgiven and no lie comes out of their mouths. Yet the other nations still sin, Christ must rule them with a rod of iron, they came out from the great tribulation. Many of those from other nations stay or follow Christ, example (Isa 19:23-25 - Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance) most from the nations follow Satan at the final moment. Christ is ruling over all these parties, so none have been filled with the H.S. None can be considered dead in Christ or alive in Christ. For those of the Bride and those who were beheaded will reign with Christ during the 1000 years. Now one must consider how many entries there are into the First Resurrection, or the Resurrection for the Just. Not all go in at the same time. Those dead in Christ and alive in Christ (which are the Bride) go into the First Resurrection first. Second are those under the Altar in Rev 6:9-11 and 20:4 to go into the First Resurrection. Third are those of Israel who will arise to receive their allotted inheritance at the end (Dan 12:13). Then rest of the Just (those who live and are alive during the Mill, both of Israel and not of Israel will partake in the First Resurrection at the end of the Mill. All those whose name is not written in the Lambs Book of Life will partake in the resurrection for the Unjust, or the Second resurrection. They are cast into the Lake of Fire where the beast and false prophet are and where Satan and all the fallen angels will reside. Sin and Death are gone. Then the New Heavens and the New Earth can be established and the New Jerusalem can come down to earth. In Christ Montana Marv  Those dead in Christ and Alive in Christ all have the New Birth in them and were/all filled with the Holy Spirit as promised in Acts 1:4,8. Marv, this is really not true. There is AMPLE proof in scripture that the born again experience is not the same experience as the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Acts 8 and Acts 19 prove this - as well as the 120 that were born again when Jesus breathed on them, and were filled days later at Pentecost. Make no mistake, at the new birth, the Holy Spirit is inside the beleiver, in their human spirit. But at the infilling or mighty "baptism in the Holy Spirit" the Holy Spirit comes UPON as the anointing.  These are two separate experiences for two different purposes. Sorry, off topic, but it needed correcting. Two separate and distinct groups here. I never thought of this before. Sure, there were many from before the days of Moses that were just men - such as Job. None can be considered dead in Christ or alive in Christ. I have always suspected that the New Birth was only available during the church age. It seems we agree. (First Resurrection) Not all go in at the same time.  Again we are agreed! Then rest of the Just (those who live and are alive during the Mill, both of Israel and not of Israel will partake in the First Resurrection at the end of the Mill. Can we find a scripture for this? It makes sense that they must get a resurrection body sometime.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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