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The word "first resurrection" in Rev 20 which mislead many


R. Hartono

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8 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

If thats true then this verse will happen after the 7 years of great tribulation :
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 

question : Why would Jesus need to gather the saints to the clouds to meet Him if the 7 years great tribulation is over, antichrist is dead and the world returns to peace ? Just to make a U Turn in the air to return the saints from the cloud to the earth again ? 

The 1st resurrection of Rev 20 isn't specific as to timing, only the facts of the event. The 2nd resurrection is specific concerning timing. One cannot say the 1st is before or after any other event from the facts contained in Rev 20 or 1 Thess 4. Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 give us the timing; after the tribulation of those days, those days are cut short, when we see the sign of the coming of the Son of man, when Jerusalem is compassed by armies, etc.

One also cannot equate tribulation with the whole 7 years. To paraphrase, Jesus says in Matt 24, "When you see the A of D...then shall be great tribulation.", and before this the time is called "beginning of sorrows". There is no '7 years of tribulation' specific to the end of the age and the sign of His coming.

The whole 'U-turn' argument is specious. Are you saying it's an impossible scenario that we are gathered to meet Jesus in the clouds of the air and instead of going to heaven we stay on earth? Maybe we a caught up to meet Jesus and wait there for a short time as He destroys his enemies. And if we are in heaven right after we meet Him in the clouds of the air, there is nothing saying we stay in heaven for any length of time, other than doctrinal beliefs that is. The 'U-turn' argument creates false facts and then ridicules the result, it is not a sound logical position. 

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9 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

1.The church will be taken alive bro. not beheaded in the tribulation :

(1 Thes 4:17) Then we which are ALIVE and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds

2.If they are caught ALIVE would their head be put at the guillotine on earth ?

3. Their resurrection will happen after the tribulation is over, a/c is death and the devil is bound a thousand years.

Rev 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

4. See No. 1

 

I appreciate the reply but that isn't scriptural support, it's just more doctrinal belief. 

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Humans seem to need understanding in order to feel comfortable with what they are researching, otherwise they feel inadequate for some reason.  For this reason, many will take what is plainly stated in their research and twist it around until they agree with the outcome.  This is pride.  Pride is the root to sin and to take scripture and twist its meaning to conform to ones theology is just wrong. Instead, may I suggest, we humble ourselves and accept what is being said to us as it is and allow God to show us His meaning.  There is nothing unclear about the following.

Revelation 20:4-6 (NKJV)

The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.  But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.  Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Or, if you prefer ...

Revelation 20:4-6 (ESV)

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.  They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.  The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.  Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

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14 hours ago, Diaste said:

There can't be three if Rev 20 says, this is the FIRST resurrection, and then describes the next resurrection as after the 1000 years being complete, hence the 2nd.

And no, the meaning is not different, the object is. In 1 Thess 4 the dead are first before the living, within the 1st resurrection. In Rev 20 first refers to the complete concept of the resurrection of the dead.

Then what of the living in Christ that make it through the '7 year tribulation' when the dead of Rev 20 are resurrected? If one assumes, as scripture says, there is only one 1st resurrection then the 1 Thess 4 resurrection is the same as the Rev 20 resurrection.

I mean, how do we just add a resurrection when the Greek, as you pointed out says, "prote = the first"? And then you claim it to be the second? 

What? I mean how?

There are only TWO Resurrections.  One is for the Just, the Second is for the Unjust.  One is for eternity with Christ (the New Jerusalem here on earth), the second is for eternity without Christ (the Lake of Fire).  It just depends on When one goes into the First Resurrection.  Is Adam or Noah, part of this group.  Yet they are not of Israel or of the Church.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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41 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

There are only TWO Resurrections.  One is for the Just, the Second is for the Unjust.  One is for eternity with Christ (the New Jerusalem here on earth), the second is for eternity without Christ (the Lake of Fire).  It just depends on When one goes into the First Resurrection.  Is Adam or Noah, part of this group.  Yet they are not of Israel or of the Church.

In Christ

Montana Marv

That's bold to say Adam or Noah are not part of Israel or the Church. And the Second resurrection is not 'for the unjust' exactly. Those raised in the 2nd resurrection are judged according to what is written in the books; it could be some are found just based on what is written in those books. God our Father does not want anyone to perish and I'm sure every avenue will be explored to save as many as possible, just like Matt 25;

31When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.

34Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

37Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink?38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’

40And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

41Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.42For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44And they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’

45Then the King will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’

46And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

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18 minutes ago, Diaste said:

That's bold to say Adam or Noah are not part of Israel or the Church. And the Second resurrection is not 'for the unjust' exactly. Those raised in the 2nd resurrection are judged according to what is written in the books; it could be some are found just based on what is written in those books. God our Father does not want anyone to perish and I'm sure every avenue will be explored to save as many as possible, just like Matt 25;

Not bold at all:  Both predate Israel and the Church.  Both predate the Flood.  Those who are judged out of the books, are those whose name is not written in the Book of Life.  The books show all they have done, it shows them as unjust.  They then are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

There are only TWO Resurrections.  The First is for the Just.  The Second is for the Unjust.  Christ was the First fruit for the Resurrection for the Just or the First Resurrection.  The A/C and the False Prophet first fruits for the Lake of Fire, the Second Resurrection.  Don't make it complicated.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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57 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Not bold at all:  Both predate Israel and the Church.  Both predate the Flood.  Those who are judged out of the books, are those whose name is not written in the Book of Life.  The books show all they have done, it shows them as unjust.  They then are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

There are only TWO Resurrections.  The First is for the Just.  The Second is for the Unjust.  Christ was the First fruit for the Resurrection for the Just or the First Resurrection.  The A/C and the False Prophet first fruits for the Lake of Fire, the Second Resurrection.  Don't make it complicated.

In Christ

Montana Marv

It is actually. If Adam and Noah are in Christ they are the seed of Abraham as scripture records; therefore they are indeed of Israel if they are in Christ. The 'church' is a dispensationalist view that has been discredited over the years, it's just not a thing. Either we are in Christ or not. If we are in Christ we are the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise. - Gal 3:29

And that's not what scripture says about the Final Judgment, that none of the ones judged from the books are found righteous;

When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.

Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. - Matt 25

From Rev 20.

And there were open books, and one of them was the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.

Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

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14 minutes ago, Diaste said:

It is actually. If Adam and Noah are in Christ they are the seed of Abraham as scripture records; therefore they are indeed of Israel if they are in Christ. The 'church' is a dispensationalist view that has been discredited over the years, it's just not a thing. Either we are in Christ or not. If we are in Christ we are the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise. - Gal 3:29

And that's not what scripture says about the Final Judgment, that none of the ones judged from the books are found righteous;

When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.

Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. - Matt 25

From Rev 20.

And there were open books, and one of them was the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.

Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Your Rev 20:12 reads a lot different than others.  And the books were opened, Another book was opened, which is the Book of Life.  The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. (Notice not the Book of Life).  This is the Great White Throne Judgment which is for Unbelievers, or the Unjust. This is the Final Final judgment.  Those who are in the books are not in the Book of Life.  The books show all they have done, the chances they have had, and each individual failed and was considered Unjust.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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1 Cor 15: 23....

"But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming"

Those who are Christs at His coming, (or those that are in Christ) includes everyone from all ages who have believed.

As Diaste said...."If we are in Christ we are the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise. - Gal 3:29

OR....put in another way....." We are the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise, therefore we are in Christ"

Jesus frequently compared the Resurrection(s) to a harvest. The Hebrew harvest was divided into three parts, the Resurrection harvest will be divided into three parts as well.

a first fruits harvest: a limited, preliminary harvest which was presented to YHWH as an offering

the primary harvest: the harvest when the majority of the grain was reaped

  • a gleanings harvest: a final sweep through the fields to reap any remaining grain

That is exactly what we see in I Cor 15:23.and Rev 20: 5-6

I Cor 15:23...." But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits , after that those who are Christ's at His coming"(primary harvest)

Rev 20:4-6...."And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completedThis is the first (Gk: PROTOS, meaning first or primary) resurrection. 

First Fruits Harvest.........Many saints were raised to life immediately after Jesus rose from the dead. Mathew 27:51-53.....

The Primary Harvest is pictured in Rev 14:13-16......."Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.” Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped."

The Old Testament saints like Daniel, Abraham, Moses,etc are in the Primary Harvest......Dan 12:1-3..... But at that time (after the Great Tribulation) your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.  Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever"

The Gleanings Harvest......Rev 20:11-15......

The limited number of righteous in this resurrection (it is a “gleaning”) will include those who repent and die in Christ in the final year of the 70th Week (after the Rapture) and all the repentant Jews and Gentiles who die in Christ during the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom. These are the human survivors of the 70th Week and children born to them during the Millennium.

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2 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Your Rev 20:12 reads a lot different than others.  And the books were opened, Another book was opened, which is the Book of Life.  The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. (Notice not the Book of Life).  This is the Great White Throne Judgment which is for Unbelievers, or the Unjust. This is the Final Final judgment.  Those who are in the books are not in the Book of Life.  The books show all they have done, the chances they have had, and each individual failed and was considered Unjust.

In Christ

Montana Marv

MM, 

Not sure which version DOESN'T have the Book of Life:

KJ21And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
ASV
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
AMP
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the Book of Life; and the dead were judged according to what they had done as written in the books [that is, everything done while on earth].
I [also] saw the dead, great and small; they stood before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged (sentenced) by what they had done [their whole way of feeling and acting, their aims and endeavors] in accordance with what was recorded in the books.
BRG
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
CSB
I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books.
CEB
I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Another scroll was opened too; this is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged on the basis of what was written in the scrolls about what they had done.
CJB
And I saw the dead, both great and small, standing in front of the throne. Books were opened; and another book was opened, the Book of Life; and the dead were judged from what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
CEV
I also saw all the dead people standing in front of that throne. Every one of them was there, no matter who they had once been. Several books were opened, and then the book of life was opened. The dead were judged by what those books said they had done.
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [that] of life. And the dead were judged out of the things written in the books according to their works.
And I saw the dead— the great and the small— standing before the throne. And books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged from the things having been written in the books, according-to their works.
DRA
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
ERV
And I saw those who had died, great and small, standing before the throne. Some books were opened. And another book was opened—the book of life. The people were judged by what they had done, which is written in the books.
EHV
I also saw the dead, great and small, standing in front of the throne, and books were opened. Another book was also opened, which is the Book of Life. The dead were judged by the things written in the books, according to what they had done.
ESV
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
EXB
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. Then ·books [scrolls] were opened, and [L another book/scroll, which is] the ·book [scroll] of life was opened [3:5; Dan. 12:1–2]. The dead were judged by what they had done, which was ·written [recorded] in the ·books [scrolls].
GNV
And I saw the dead, both great and small stand before God: and the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged of those things, which were written in the books, according to their works.
GW
I saw the dead, both important and unimportant people, standing in front of the throne. Books were opened, including the Book of Life. The dead were judged on the basis of what they had done, as recorded in the books.
GNT
And I saw the dead, great and small alike, standing before the throne. Books were opened, and then another book was opened, the book of the living. The dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books.
I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books.
 
ISI saw the dead, both unimportant and important, standing in front of the throne, and books were open. Another book was opened—the Book of Life. The dead were judged according to their actions, as recorded in the books.
Then I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne and the books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books concerning what they had done. The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up the dead which were in them. And men were judged, each according to what he had done.
JUB
And I saw the dead, great and small, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened; which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
KJV
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
LEB
And I saw the dead—the great and the small—standing before the throne, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds.
TLB
I saw the dead, great and small, standing before God; and The Books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to the things written in The Books, each according to the deeds he had done.
MSG
I saw a Great White Throne and the One Enthroned. Nothing could stand before or against the Presence, nothing in Heaven, nothing on earth. And then I saw all the dead, great and small, standing there—before the Throne! And books were opened. Then another book was opened: the Book of Life. The dead were judged by what was written in the books, by the way they had lived. Sea released its dead, Death and Hell turned in their dead. Each man and woman was judged by the way he or she had lived. Then Death and Hell were hurled into Lake Fire. This is the second death—Lake Fire. Anyone whose name was not found inscribed in the Book of Life was hurled into Lake Fire.
MEV
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God. Books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. The dead were judged according to their works as recorded in the books.
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and the books were opened. Then another book was opened—the Book of Life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to · their deeds.
NOG
I saw the dead, both important and unimportant people, standing in front of the throne. Books were opened, including the Book of Life. The dead were judged on the basis of what they had done, as recorded in the books.
I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls.
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
NCV
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. Then books were opened, and the book of life was opened. The dead were judged by what they had done, which was written in the books.
NET
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. Then books were opened, and another book was opened—the book of life. So the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds.
I saw the dead, great and small, standing in front of the throne. Books were opened. Then another book was opened. It was the book of life. The dead were judged by what they had done. The things they had done were written in the books.
NIV
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
NLV
I saw all the dead people standing before God. There were great people and small people. The books were opened. Then another book was opened. It was the book of life. The dead people were judged by what they had done as it was written in the books.
NLT
I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books.
NMB
And I saw the dead, both great and small, stand before God. And the books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by those things that were written in the books, according to their deeds.
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books.
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books.
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books.
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books.
NTE
Then I saw the dead, great and small, standing in front of the throne. Books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged on the basis of what was written in the books, in accordance with what they had done.
TPT
I saw the dead, the lowly and the famous alike, standing before the throne. Books were opened, and then another book was opened: the Book of Life. The dead were judged by what they had done as recorded in the books.
RSV
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.
TLV
And I saw the dead—the great and the small—standing before the throne. The books were opened, and another book was opened—the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what was written in the books, according to their deeds.
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in front of the throne. Some books were opened. Then another book was opened; it was called the book of life. And the dead were judged according to what had been recorded in the first books; these were the records of everything they had done.
WEB
I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
WE
I saw the dead people, those who were great and those not great. They were standing in front of God's throne. Some books were opened. And another book was opened which is the book of life. The dead people were judged by the things they had done, which were written in the books.
WYC
And I saw dead men, great and small, standing in the sight of the throne; and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and dead men were deemed of these things that were written in the books, after the works of them.
YLT
and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls -- according to their works;
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