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The word "first resurrection" in Rev 20 which mislead many


R. Hartono

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On 3/15/2019 at 7:31 PM, Montana Marv said:

What we were referencing is "Another book" which is the Book of Life.  Please read what I was responding to.

 

Another book vs. and one of them was...

So you picked up on something totally different than I was referring to.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Hi MM,

Ya, sorry about that brother. I re-read what you posted, and I see my error. Duh!

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8 hours ago, Diaste said:

I feel this is just picking and choosing what constitutes the GWT judgment. The GWT judgment occurs after the millennium as stated in scripture. No way around that. Just like there are only two resurrections there is only one GWT judgment; and that court is to judge those people who appear before the bench from the books that are opened, and by those things written in the books. Clearly Matt 25 judges the individuals that make up the nations by their deeds, an allusion to these deeds being recorded, a reference then to the GWT judgment where books have the recorded deeds by which the individuals that make up the nations are judged.

Shalom, Diaste.

Just get the idea that "Matthew 25 is about the GWTJ" out of your head. It's not about that judgment.

If you want a Scripture passage about the GWTJ, simply look at 2 Peter 3:3-13:

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying,

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation." (This is the philosophy of uniformitarianism.) 

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (the first heavens and the first earth) 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (the FLOOD) 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, (the second heavens and the second earth) by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (This IS a statement about the GWTJ.)

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (This IS a statement about the Millennium.) 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (This is the FIRE that shall occur just prior to the GWTJ.)

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (the third heavens and the third earth)

Much of this chapter parallels Revelation 20 and 21.

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On 3/17/2019 at 8:04 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Diaste.

Just get the idea that "Matthew 25 is about the GWTJ" out of your head. It's not about that judgment.

If you want a Scripture passage about the GWTJ, simply look at 2 Peter 3:3-13:

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying,

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation." (This is the philosophy of uniformitarianism.) 

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (the first heavens and the first earth) 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (the FLOOD) 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, (the second heavens and the second earth) by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (This IS a statement about the GWTJ.)

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (This IS a statement about the Millennium.) 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (This is the FIRE that shall occur just prior to the GWTJ.)

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (the third heavens and the third earth)

Much of this chapter parallels Revelation 20 and 21.

Yeah...not exactly. The reference here is to the patience of the saints and the encouragement that end time prophecy will come to pass as stated no matter who mocks the prophecies; all in the context of answering the mocking of the ungodly and shortsighted question, "Where is the promise of his coming?"

If the fire in verse 10 refers to the wrath of God how does this fire; "reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men" from verse 7 refer to something else?

It doesn't. Both refer to the wrath of God or the passage would become nonsense.

Surely verse 8 is only revealing the contrast between the immortal view of time as compared to the bondage of time under which the mortal suffers; limiting the scope of insight and understanding of the things to come. Further, verse 8 is the answer to verse 4 rebutting the mockers and scoffers who contend the promise is false since nothing has changed, therefore nothing will change because it's just taking too long. 

It's not fair to present evidence making unequivocal conclusions without corroboration. I understand you believe this, "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (This IS a statement about the Millennium.)" but where is another scriptural statement that compares this with the Millennium? This is actually a paraphrase by Peter of Psalm 90:4 where a day with the Lord is likened to a thousand years, or a watch in the night. Peter is not equating the two, merely presenting the fact God operates outside of time as we see it; which firmly remains in the context of verse 4.

So I see all this as encouragement to patience on the part of the saints to wait on God; He isn't bound by time, His promises are sure, and they will come to pass so you all better behave accordingly.

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On 3/15/2019 at 12:54 AM, R. Hartono said:

The resurrection in Revelation 20 is not the same as the rapture is that it is simply a resurrection only. These Tribulation Saints died because they refused to worship the image of the beast or take the mark of the beast, and they are not "caught up" to meet Jesus in the air as we see in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18. They are resurrected, and remain on earth to rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years. They are NOT the Church!

This is outrageous- how can you say this?!!!

Rev. 7:14- ...These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

v. 15:- Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

v. 16- They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Somehow you have either didn't SEE this or left it out. How can these people who loved not their lives even unto death NOT be given the same reward that WE are given according to the Gospel. If they don't receive the same things provided in the SAME Gospel that we read in the SAME scriptures....if is a different gospel. You have put forth a significant error.

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14 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yeah...not exactly. The reference here is to the patience of the saints and the encouragement that end time prophecy will come to pass as stated no matter who mocks the prophecies; all in the context of answering the mocking of the ungodly and shortsighted question, "Where is the promise of his coming?"

Shalom, Diaste.

"The patience of the saints"?! It's more about the patience of the Lord being pushed to the limit! It's hard to see it in the translation, but the enunciation of verse 10 is with the accent on the "will": 

2 Peter 3:8-10 (KJV)

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Think of the "But" as a "Nevertheless," a "However," or a "Just the same."

Quote

If the fire in verse 10 refers to the wrath of God how does this fire; "reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men" from verse 7 refer to something else?

It doesn't. Both refer to the wrath of God or the passage would become nonsense.

Well, yes ... and no! Don't you think that God can show His wrath at different times and in different ways?

Let's go back to Revelation 20:

Revelation 20:7-15 (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Do you see the two different "fires" here? They also appear in 2 Peter 3.

As I've said before, the Arabs have a tradition that says that Adam, the first prophet of God, predicted that there would be both deluges of water and fire. And, it would seem that Kefa ("Peter") knew the same thing - a global Flood in Noach's time, and a global Fire in haSatan's revolt. While not much is said in Revelation 20 about the first, global Fire (other than "from whose face the earth (the dirt) and the heaven (the sky or the atmosphere) fled away, and there was found no place for them"), two different "fires" are present here separated by the GWTJ.

The same is true for 2 Peter 3:

2 Peter 3:7-12 (KJV)

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against (Greek: eis = "into") the day of judgment and perdition (Greek: apooleias = "destruction") of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away (this is LITERALLY "passing by," not "being destroyed"!) with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat

Both "fires" are here, but they are (for our Western way of thinking) out of order. The global fire is in verses 10 and 11, but the Lake of Fire is the result of the "Day of Judgment and Perdition of ungodly men," or the GWTJ itself.

(They're not truly "out of order"; it's just that the more general is listed before the more specific. This is a typical for Hebrew literature.)

Quote

Surely verse 8 is only revealing the contrast between the immortal view of time as compared to the bondage of time under which the mortal suffers; limiting the scope of insight and understanding of the things to come. Further, verse 8 is the answer to verse 4 rebutting the mockers and scoffers who contend the promise is false since nothing has changed, therefore nothing will change because it's just taking too long. 

It's not fair to present evidence making unequivocal conclusions without corroboration. I understand you believe this, "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (This IS a statement about the Millennium.)" but where is another scriptural statement that compares this with the Millennium? This is actually a paraphrase by Peter of Psalm 90:4 where a day with the Lord is likened to a thousand years, or a watch in the night. Peter is not equating the two, merely presenting the fact God operates outside of time as we see it; which firmly remains in the context of verse 4.

So I see all this as encouragement to patience on the part of the saints to wait on God; He isn't bound by time, His promises are sure, and they will come to pass so you all better behave accordingly.

First, you answered your own question: "Where is another scriptural statement that compares this with the Millennium?" "Psalm 90:4!"

God does NOT "operate outside of time!" That's an old-wives' fable.  He CREATED time by merely creating matter and movement! That's the nature of the space-mass-time continuum! He can make events move faster or slower with respect to time, but He does not CHANGE time! The movement of the subatomic particles and the movement of the planets and moons are HIS orderly arrangement!

You can choose to see what you want to see, but it doesn't change the facts! I perceive that in all things modern Christianity is FAR TOO ALLEGORICAL for its own good! As the kids said when my children were growing up, "whatever."

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10 hours ago, Uriah said:

This is outrageous- how can you say this?!!!

Rev. 7:14- ...These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

v. 15:- Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

v. 16- They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Somehow you have either didn't SEE this or left it out. How can these people who loved not their lives even unto death NOT be given the same reward that WE are given according to the Gospel. If they don't receive the same things provided in the SAME Gospel that we read in the SAME scriptures....if is a different gospel. You have put forth a significant error.

They will be resurrected and reign with Christ, these are the tribulation saints who did not came out of great tribulation and beheaded.

Rev 20:4 .... and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

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13 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

They will be resurrected and reign with Christ, these are the tribulation saints who did not came out of great tribulation and beheaded.

Rev 20:4 .... and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Hi Hartono,

                  Tribulation saints who did not come of the great tribulation? Not making sense. If you would like I can comment more bro. Think it through, I cannot find any support for being resurrected and staying on Earth if that is what you mean. 

God (will) bless you!

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17 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

They will be resurrected and reign with Christ, these are the tribulation saints who did not came out of great tribulation and beheaded.

 Rev 20:4 .... and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Shalom, R. Hartono.

I've been following along, and I'm confused by your response. Are you arguing AGAINST just anyone living and reigning with the Messiah? that they MUST be among the "tribulation saints who DID come out of great tribulation and who WERE beheaded" to be among those who will live again and reign with Him? OR, are you saying something else?

I also had a more fundamental question: Is English your primary language? I'm just curious. How you respond (if you choose to do so) will help me communicate with you better.

Logic is key to understanding what is going on in Revelation 20:4-6, and one must remember that we are talking about HEBREW logic, not ENGLISH logic - hiygaayown. That is, one must think like a Hebrew to rightly understand the verse, because although we have this verse in Greek, it was written first by a Jew (Yochanan - "John") who may have originally written it in Aramaic, or at least THOUGHT in Aramaic and translated it into Greek to write it down for those in Asia Minor.

Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The first part, verse 4, is a SPECIAL INSTANCE of those who will live and reign with the Messiah; the second part, verse 6, is a GENERAL CASE in which ALL who participate in the First Resurrection will live and reign with the Messiah. John was just saying that the ones who were beheaded will have pre-eminence in the reign with the Messiah. Others will have lesser positions.

Edited by Retrobyter
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4 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Hartono,

                  Tribulation saints who did not come of the great tribulation? Not making sense. If you would like I can comment more bro. Think it through, I cannot find any support for being resurrected and staying on Earth if that is what you mean. 

God (will) bless you!

 

50 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, R. Hartono.

I've been following along, and I'm confused by your response.

 

John saw 2 groups of people in heaven

1st : The great multitude in front of the Throne

2nd : The souls under the altar waiting revenge

The 1st group speaks about 1 Thes 4:16-17 (resurrection of church age saints and rapture of the living saints)

The 2nd group speaks about those left behind by the rapture and beheaded.

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

John saw 2 groups of people in heaven

1st : The great multitude in front of the Throne

2nd : The souls under the altar waiting revenge

The 1st group speaks about 1 Thes 4:16-17 (resurrection of church age saints and rapture of the living saints)

The 2nd group speaks about those left behind by the rapture and beheaded.

 

Hi Hartono,

Ahh, I see you are reading them as two different groups. However, regardless of your segregating "tribulation saints" into somehow being "not the church", there is one faith, one Spirit, One Lord,  and on and on. Those seen in the vision under the alter are awaiting the retribution of God which comes when Jesus returns. When He does those who "are alive and remain" will be caught up after the dead are raised. Nowhere can it be shown that they are all beheaded or all martyred. Your position is a framework used by pre trib supporters. That position is impossible according to scripture in my view. For pre trib to be true  it would require multiple raptures/resurrections/comings-a disaster. 

All those who died in Christ will be resurrected when He comes and all believers whore alive at that time will be caught up!

 

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