The word "first resurrection" in Rev 20 which mislead many

[Retrobyter]

On 3/21/2019 at 12:55 AM, R. Hartono said:

John saw 2 groups of people in heaven

1st : The great multitude in front of the Throne

2nd : The souls under the altar waiting revenge

The 1st group speaks about 1 Thes 4:16-17 (resurrection of church age saints and rapture of the living saints)

The 2nd group speaks about those left behind by the rapture and beheaded.

Shalom, R. Hartono.

Well, that's an interesting compartmentalization, but the truth is found in the definitions of two words that you've confused: "heaven," and "soul." You're also showing a common Christian bias that needs correcting.

First, "heaven" means the "sky." People balk at this all the time, but it is the TRUTH, pure and simple. When the word is used correctly, the problems we seem to have with our scenarios of eschatological viewpoints and opinions melt away. For instance, when Yeshua` is said to come again, He comes "FROM the sky," that is, through the sky, not from some place called "Heaven" beyond the sky (unless, of course, you call the New Jerusalem "Heaven").

Whoever came up with...

"First heaven - of clouds,
Second heaven - of stars,
Third heaven - God's abode,"

did us NO favor!

It is an ERROR to think that the "third heaven" means a third PLACE spatially removed from the earth. Peter gives us the truth in 2 Peter 3:3-13: the "third heavens" (and the "third earth") are IN THE FUTURE after the Fire, just as the "first heavens" (and the "first earth") were IN THE PAST before the Flood. In all three cases, the "heavens" are the "skies" above us, the "ATMOSPHERE" (and what we see in and through the atmosphere) of this planet! That's PRECISELY how Yeshua` ("Jesus") used the word!

3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'). Perhaps from the same as oros (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity) -- air, heaven(-ly), sky.

(Strong simply makes the same assumption as the formula above: "First heaven - of clouds, etc." This only proves that he, too, was subjected to this interpretation of "third heaven.")

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"). 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, 'It will be fair weather': for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red. 3 And in the morning, 'It will be foul weather to day': for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: tou ouranou = "of-the sky"); but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas."

And he left them, and departed.

It's the SAME GREEK WORD in all FOUR instances! They were probably really speaking Aramaic or perhaps Hebrew, but if so, it's even MORE sure that all four instances were the same "hashaamayin" or "hashaamayim."

Again, this is a DUAL Hebrew word referring to the daytime sky and the nighttime sky, but it is the name that God gave the expanse (Hebrew: raaqiya` translated as "firmament" in the KJV) He placed between the waters above the expanse and the waters below the expanse. This is the ATMOSPHERE above the waters below that He called "seas." The original atmosphere was also placed BELOW an "ocean" of water vapor, and it was from this water vapor that the rains came for 40 days and 40 nights during Noach's 600th year, effectively adding the waters above the atmosphere to the waters below the atmosphere causing the Flood. Today, the waters condense IN the atmosphere on dust particles as clouds and do not rise as high as they used to be.

That's the first word. The second is the word "soul":

The Hebrew word that was translated as "soul" in Genesis 2:7 and many OT verses thereafter is "nefesh." This word comes from its root word, "naafash" which means "to breathe. "Nefesh" means an "air-breathing created being."

Since the Greek word Paul used for the translation of Genesis 2:7 (in 1 Corinthians 15:45) was "psuchee," then "psuchee" also means an "air-breathing created being."

And, THIS is the word (in the plural) that was used in Revelation 6:9, "tas psuchas," "the souls," "the AIR-BREATHING created beings!"

There's NO SUCH THING as an "immaterial part of a human being!"

Notice their question for God: 

Revelation 6:10 (KJV)

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying,

"How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

They didn't ask "How long until we're resurrected?" They didn't ask "How long until we're made alive again?" THEY ALREADY WERE RESURRECTED at that time! And, how does one "cry with a loud voice" if they no longer have a head?!

No, we've been fed a line of hogwash down through the years. The idea of an "immaterial part of a human being" is something that was ADDED by the influence of Greek philosophy back in the 200s and 300s A.D!

Finally, to correct the common Christian bias, one must understand that the OT saints were still SAINTS! HOLY ONES! And, it was THEIR "Christ!" THEIR "Messiah!" THEIR "Maashiyach" they were anticipating, LONG before "Christians" came along! If they're not "saved," then we who name the name of "Christ" aren't either! The ONLY difference is that they looked FORWARD to the Messiah, anticipating His death in the pictures of their animal sacrifices, and we look BACKWARD to the Messiah in time, knowing now that HE was indeed the Sacrifice! Look at David's words:

Psalm 23:1-6 (KJV)

1 {A Psalm of David.}

The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Psalm 32:1-11 (KJV)

1 {A Psalm of David, Maschil.}

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long.
4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.
5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
6 For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.
7 Thou art my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah.
8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.
9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.
10 Many sorrows shall be to the wicked: but he that trusteth in the LORD, mercy shall compass him about.
11 Be glad in the LORD, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all ye that are upright in heart.

Psalm 103:1-22 (KJV)

1 {A Psalm of David.}

Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;
4 Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness (Hebrew: chesed) and tender mercies;
5 Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's.
6 The LORD executeth righteousness and judgment for all that are oppressed.
7 He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel.
8 The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.
9 He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.
10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.
12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.
14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.
15 As for man, his days are as grass: as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth.
16 For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more.
17 But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;
18 To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them.
19 The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens (Hebrew: bashaamayim = "in-the-skies"); and his kingdom ruleth over all.
20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.
21 Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure.
22 Bless the LORD, all his works in all places of his dominion: bless the LORD, O my soul.

Didn't David look forward to the Messiah?

Psalm 22:1-31 (KJV)

1 {To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.}

My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

Modern-day Christians are not somehow "a cut above" the children of Israel, especially the Jews! We are to be ONE people! And, who says that the children of Israel weren't "in the Messiah?" See, that's all "PREJUDICED TALK!" And, it doesn't fit well on someone who claims to be a "Christian."

Ephesians 2:11-22 (KJV)

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus (the Messiah Yeshua`) ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ (the blood of the Messiah). 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye (Ephesian Gentiles) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (the children of Israel), and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone (the head stone of the angle); 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

"Christians" (also called erroneously "the Church") are NOT a separate group from the children of Israel, even the Jews (the children of Yhudah or "Judah")! We are graffed into that "olive tree!"

Romans 11:11-32 (KJV)

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall (permanently)? God forbid: but rather through their (temporary) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (Israel) to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh (Israel), and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them (Israel) be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them (Israel) be, but life from the dead (RESURRECTION)? 16 For if the firstfruit (Yeshua`) be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root (Yeshua`) be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (God doesn't renege on His gifts and calling.) 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

[Montana Marv]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, R. Hartono.

Well, that's an interesting compartmentalization, but the truth is found in the definitions of two words that you've confused: "heaven," and "soul." You're also showing a common Christian bias that needs correcting.

First, "heaven" means the "sky." People balk at this all the time, but it is the TRUTH, pure and simple. When the word is used correctly, the problems we seem to have with our scenarios of eschatological viewpoints and opinions melt away. For instance, when Yeshua` is said to come again, He comes "FROM the sky," that is, through the sky, not from some place called "Heaven" beyond the sky (unless, of course, you call the New Jerusalem "Heaven").

Whoever came up with...

"First heaven - of clouds,
Second heaven - of stars,
Third heaven - God's abode,"

did us NO favor!

It is an ERROR to think that the "third heaven" means a third PLACE spatially removed from the earth. Peter gives us the truth in 2 Peter 3:3-13: the "third heavens" (and the "third earth") are IN THE FUTURE after the Fire, just as the "first heavens" (and the "first earth") were IN THE PAST before the Flood. In all three cases, the "heavens" are the "skies" above us, the "ATMOSPHERE" (and what we see in and through the atmosphere) of this planet! That's PRECISELY how Yeshua` ("Jesus") used the word!

3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'). Perhaps from the same as oros (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity) -- air, heaven(-ly), sky.

(Strong simply makes the same assumption as the formula above: "First heaven - of clouds, etc." This only proves that he, too, was subjected to this interpretation of "third heaven.")

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"). 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, 'It will be fair weather': for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red. 3 And in the morning, 'It will be foul weather to day': for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: tou ouranou = "of-the sky"); but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas."

And he left them, and departed.

It's the SAME GREEK WORD in all FOUR instances! They were probably really speaking Aramaic or perhaps Hebrew, but if so, it's even MORE sure that all four instances were the same "hashaamayin" or "hashaamayim."

Again, this is a DUAL Hebrew word referring to the daytime sky and the nighttime sky, but it is the name that God gave the expanse (Hebrew: raaqiya` translated as "firmament" in the KJV) He placed between the waters above the expanse and the waters below the expanse. This is the ATMOSPHERE above the waters below that He called "seas." The original atmosphere was also placed BELOW an "ocean" of water vapor, and it was from this water vapor that the rains came for 40 days and 40 nights during Noach's 600th year, effectively adding the waters above the atmosphere to the waters below the atmosphere causing the Flood. Today, the waters condense IN the atmosphere on dust particles as clouds and do not rise as high as they used to be.

That's the first word. The second is the word "soul":

The Hebrew word that was translated as "soul" in Genesis 2:7 and many OT verses thereafter is "nefesh." This word comes from its root word, "naafash" which means "to breathe. "Nefesh" means an "air-breathing created being."

Since the Greek word Paul used for the translation of Genesis 2:7 (in 1 Corinthians 15:45) was "psuchee," then "psuchee" also means an "air-breathing created being."

And, THIS is the word (in the plural) that was used in Revelation 6:9, "tas psuchas," "the souls," "the AIR-BREATHING created beings!"

There's NO SUCH THING as an "immaterial part of a human being!"

Notice their question for God: 

Revelation 6:10 (KJV)

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying,

"How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

They didn't ask "How long until we're resurrected?" They didn't ask "How long until we're made alive again?" THEY ALREADY WERE RESURRECTED at that time! And, how does one "cry with a loud voice" if they no longer have a head?!

No, we've been fed a line of hogwash down through the years. The idea of an "immaterial part of a human being" is something that was ADDED by the influence of Greek philosophy back in the 200s and 300s A.D!

Finally, to correct the common Christian bias, one must understand that the OT saints were still SAINTS! HOLY ONES! And, it was THEIR "Christ!" THEIR "Messiah!" THEIR "Maashiyach" they were anticipating, LONG before "Christians" came along! If they're not "saved," then we who name the name of "Christ" aren't either! The ONLY difference is that they looked FORWARD to the Messiah, anticipating His death in the pictures of their animal sacrifices, and we look BACKWARD to the Messiah in time, knowing now that HE was indeed the Sacrifice! Look at David's words:

Psalm 23:1-6 (KJV)

1 {A Psalm of David.}

The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Psalm 32:1-11 (KJV)

1 {A Psalm of David, Maschil.}

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long.
4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.
5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
6 For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.
7 Thou art my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah.
8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.
9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.
10 Many sorrows shall be to the wicked: but he that trusteth in the LORD, mercy shall compass him about.
11 Be glad in the LORD, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all ye that are upright in heart.

Psalm 103:1-22 (KJV)

1 {A Psalm of David.}

Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;
4 Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness (Hebrew: chesed) and tender mercies;
5 Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's.
6 The LORD executeth righteousness and judgment for all that are oppressed.
7 He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel.
8 The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.
9 He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.
10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.
12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.
14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.
15 As for man, his days are as grass: as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth.
16 For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more.
17 But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;
18 To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them.
19 The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens (Hebrew: bashaamayim = "in-the-skies"); and his kingdom ruleth over all.
20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.
21 Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure.
22 Bless the LORD, all his works in all places of his dominion: bless the LORD, O my soul.

Didn't David look forward to the Messiah?

Psalm 22:1-31 (KJV)

1 {To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.}

My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

Modern-day Christians are not somehow "a cut above" the children of Israel, especially the Jews! We are to be ONE people! And, who says that the children of Israel weren't "in the Messiah?" See, that's all "PREJUDICED TALK!" And, it doesn't fit well on someone who claims to be a "Christian."

Ephesians 2:11-22 (KJV)

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus (the Messiah Yeshua`) ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ (the blood of the Messiah). 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye (Ephesian Gentiles) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (the children of Israel), and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone (the head stone of the angle); 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

"Christians" (also called erroneously "the Church") are NOT a separate group from the children of Israel, even the Jews (the children of Yhudah or "Judah")! We are graffed into that "olive tree!"

Romans 11:11-32 (KJV)

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall (permanently)? God forbid: but rather through their (temporary) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (Israel) to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh (Israel), and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them (Israel) be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them (Israel) be, but life from the dead (RESURRECTION)? 16 For if the firstfruit (Yeshua`) be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root (Yeshua`) be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (God doesn't renege on His gifts and calling.) 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Throne and Altar are considered being in the Third Heaven.

There is our atmosphere, the made universe as a whole and God's Abode.

Don't get to technical.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

Throne and Altar are considered being in the Third Heaven.

There is our atmosphere, the made universe as a whole and God's Abode.

Don't get too technical.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Shabbat shalom, Montana Marv.

I'm not being "too technical," my brother, and there you go again! It's not right to think of ...

"First heaven - of clouds,
Second heaven - of stars,
Third heaven - God's abode,"

as the definitive mode for explaining the "third heaven!"

Neither the Throne nor the Altar are in some place called "Heaven!" What would they sit upon? Is there a "ground" in this mysterious "Heaven?" Do they float? If so, what keeps them stable? See, this just raises more questions than it answers!

If the throne is on this earth, then the throne begins BEFORE the third "heaven" - that is, the third "sky." When Yeshua` reigns HERE ON THIS EARTH, He does so in the MILLENNIUM! You know this to be true.

The third "sky" begins after the end of the Millennium when the Great White Throne Judgment occurs and while the Messiah still reigns in those first 1000 years. The order is simple:

now -
the Second Coming -
the chaining of haSatan in the Abyss -
the Millennium, the Thousand Years of the beginning of the Messiah's reign (which lasts forever) -
the release of haSatan from the Abyss -
the FIRE -
the Great White Throne Judgment - 
the remaking of the NEW earth and the NEW sky, the "third sky" - 
the descent of the New Jerusalem - 
and eternity begins, Yeshua` STILL reigning in Jerusalem over the children of Israel with GOD the Father reigning over the entire earth.

The Millennium will have stages, as well.

First, Yeshua` shall return to Botsrah (in what was once Edom) with zeal to stop an attempted slaughter -
then, Yeshua` shall be accepted by the Jews and anointed to be the King of the Jews and -
He shall rescue His people from attempted genocide in a great war -
He shall conquer all nations in the great battle of Har Megiddown ("Armageddon" in Greek) -
He shall be accepted and anointed as Israel's King, and His Kingdom will begin -
He shall hold a great war tribunal in which all nations that participated in the great war will be represented:
Sheep nations shall be annexed into His Kingdom and Yeshua` begins to be King of kings, and
Goat nations shall be denied access to His Kingdom - 
Yeshua`, both Messiah and Melekh ("King" in Hebrew), shall continue to conquer nations and peoples throughout the Millennium,
His Kingdom growing like a mustard seed, and influencing the world like yeast in bread dough,
until the whole be leavened, and He is finally King of the Entire World, the World Emperor - the greatest King of kings and Lord of Lords ever,
The last enemy He destroys is death itself.
Then, the Messiah cedes His World-wide Kingdom to His Father, and continues to reign in Jerusalem over the Children of Israel.

Obviously, there is some overlapping at the end of the Millennium with the stages after the Millennium listed above.

Now, all of these points are listed in Scripture, either in 2 Peter 3:3-13, 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, or Revelation 20:1-21:4.

"Too technical?" Is it "too technical" to point out the obvious?

[Montana Marv]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, Montana Marv.

I'm not being "too technical," my brother, and there you go again! It's not right to think of ...

"First heaven - of clouds,
Second heaven - of stars,
Third heaven - God's abode,"

as the definitive mode for explaining the "third heaven!"

Neither the Throne nor the Altar are in some place called "Heaven!" What would they sit upon? Is there a "ground" in this mysterious "Heaven?" Do they float? If so, what keeps them stable? See, this just raises more questions than it answers!

If the throne is on this earth, then the throne begins BEFORE the third "heaven" - that is, the third "sky." When Yeshua` reigns HERE ON THIS EARTH, He does so in the MILLENNIUM! You know this to be true.

The third "sky" begins after the end of the Millennium when the Great White Throne Judgment occurs and while the Messiah still reigns in those first 1000 years. The order is simple:

now -
the Second Coming -
the chaining of haSatan in the Abyss -
the Millennium, the Thousand Years of the beginning of the Messiah's reign (which lasts forever) -
the release of haSatan from the Abyss -
the FIRE -
the Great White Throne Judgment - 
the remaking of the NEW earth and the NEW sky, the "third sky" - 
the descent of the New Jerusalem - 
and eternity begins, Yeshua` STILL reigning in Jerusalem over the children of Israel with GOD the Father reigning over the entire earth.

The Millennium will have stages, as well.

First, Yeshua` shall return to Botsrah (in what was once Edom) with zeal to stop an attempted slaughter -
then, Yeshua` shall be accepted by the Jews and anointed to be the King of the Jews and -
He shall rescue His people from attempted genocide in a great war -
He shall conquer all nations in the great battle of Har Megiddown ("Armageddon" in Greek) -
He shall be accepted and anointed as Israel's King, and His Kingdom will begin -
He shall hold a great war tribunal in which all nations that participated in the great war will be represented:
Sheep nations shall be annexed into His Kingdom and Yeshua` begins to be King of kings, and
Goat nations shall be denied access to His Kingdom - 
Yeshua`, both Messiah and Melekh ("King" in Hebrew), shall continue to conquer nations and peoples throughout the Millennium,
His Kingdom growing like a mustard seed, and influencing the world like yeast in bread dough,
until the whole be leavened, and He is finally King of the Entire World, the World Emperor - the greatest King of kings and Lord of Lords ever,
The last enemy He destroys is death itself.
Then, the Messiah cedes His World-wide Kingdom to His Father, and continues to reign in Jerusalem over the Children of Israel.

Obviously, there is some overlapping at the end of the Millennium with the stages after the Millennium listed above.

Now, all of these points are listed in Scripture, either in 2 Peter 3:3-13, 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, or Revelation 20:1-21:4.

"Too technical?" Is it "too technical" to point out the obvious?

So it appears that Jesus was wrong.  John 14 - In My Fathers House are many mansions (rooms). I go there to prepare a place for you.

Ezk 28:14b - You (Satan) were on the holy mount of God, you walked among the fiery stones.  Isa 14;13 - I (Satan) will ascend to heaven, I will raise my throne above the stars of God, I  will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.  Rev 5:1a - Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat one the throne.

The third heaven is Gods Abode, the thing is, this place is in a different place unseen to our eyes. No time, only eternity.  All of creation resides someplace within God's realm.   Rev 4:8c - The four creatures never stopped saying day and night -"Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come".  John saw this in present time, Then the Seals were opened.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[seeking the lost]

On 3/14/2019 at 12:20 AM, R. Hartono said:

Many people after reading this verse :

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST RESURRECTION.

Take a conclusion that the first resurrection will happen after the Tribulation, where the souls that were beheaded in the Tribulation will be resurrected.

Therefore people assume that this verse will happen after the 7 years of great tribulation
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Question : Why would Jesus need to gather the saints to the clouds to meet Him if the 7 years great tribulation is over ? Just to make a U Turn in the air to return the saints from the cloud to the earth again ? Not right.

Many have been misleaded by the ENGLISH TRANSLATION of Rev 20 5

Lets analyse the word :
English : This is the first resurection
Greek : haute he anastasis he PROTE
haute he = this is
prote = the first
anastasis = resurrection (NOUN)
THIS VERSE SAYS FIRST RESURRECTION BECAUSE THIS PRECEDES THE OTHER DEAD WHO LIVE NOT AGAIN UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS ARE FINISHED (GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT), FIRST/prote HERE MEANS IT PRECEDES.

The SAME word PROTE (first) is also used in : 1 Thes 4 16 to show resurrection be4 the Rapture
English : the dead in Christ will rise first
Greek : hoi nekroi en Christo anastesontai proton
hoi nekro = the dead
en Christo= in Christ
anastesontai = rise (verb)
proton = first
THIS SHOWS THE DEAD IN CHRIST OF CHURCH AGE WILL RISE FIRST BEFORE THE RAPTURE OF THE LIVING SAINTS.

We can see the translation in Rev 20:5 and 1 Thes 4:16 both used the same word PROTE/FIRST RESURRECTION with different meaning it refers to.

So there will be 3 Resurrections :

1st Resurrection : The resurrection of the dead in Christ from the church age.
: 1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2nd Resurrection of those died by beheading in the Grief Tribulation :
Rev 20:4 and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

3rd Resurrection of all the deceased mankind since the time of Adam:
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

There should be no confusion if we let the scripture read as it is written.  When we stretch to make it mean what it ought to mean, according to our thinking, we then have to add things to the scripture.  There is a warning about that.  The first resurrection is very specific and limited to those stated to be raised and for the purpose stated.  The rest of the dead are raised on the last day at the last trumpet.  

John 6:38-40 New International Version (NIV)

38" For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

[iamlamad]

On 3/14/2019 at 12:20 AM, R. Hartono said:

Many people after reading this verse :

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST RESURRECTION.

Take a conclusion that the first resurrection will happen after the Tribulation, where the souls that were beheaded in the Tribulation will be resurrected.

Therefore people assume that this verse will happen after the 7 years of great tribulation
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Question : Why would Jesus need to gather the saints to the clouds to meet Him if the 7 years great tribulation is over ? Just to make a U Turn in the air to return the saints from the cloud to the earth again ? Not right.

Many have been misleaded by the ENGLISH TRANSLATION of Rev 20 5

Lets analyse the word :
English : This is the first resurection
Greek : haute he anastasis he PROTE
haute he = this is
prote = the first
anastasis = resurrection (NOUN)
THIS VERSE SAYS FIRST RESURRECTION BECAUSE THIS PRECEDES THE OTHER DEAD WHO LIVE NOT AGAIN UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS ARE FINISHED (GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT), FIRST/prote HERE MEANS IT PRECEDES.

The SAME word PROTE (first) is also used in : 1 Thes 4 16 to show resurrection be4 the Rapture
English : the dead in Christ will rise first
Greek : hoi nekroi en Christo anastesontai proton
hoi nekro = the dead
en Christo= in Christ
anastesontai = rise (verb)
proton = first
THIS SHOWS THE DEAD IN CHRIST OF CHURCH AGE WILL RISE FIRST BEFORE THE RAPTURE OF THE LIVING SAINTS.

We can see the translation in Rev 20:5 and 1 Thes 4:16 both used the same word PROTE/FIRST RESURRECTION with different meaning it refers to.

So there will be 3 Resurrections :

1st Resurrection : The resurrection of the dead in Christ from the church age.
: 1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2nd Resurrection of those died by beheading in the Grief Tribulation :
Rev 20:4 and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

3rd Resurrection of all the deceased mankind since the time of Adam:
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

This is a great job of ad libbing if I ever saw one. Revelation tells us there are two - you tell us there are three. 

Since you looked up the Greek word, why not show us the other possible translations? It is NOT "first" in sequence - it is first in priority or honor.

first in time or place

in any succession of things or persons

first in rank

influence, honour

chief

principal

first, at the first

Same word used here:

Mat 20:27  And whosoever will be chief G4413 among you, let him be your servant:

This phrase, "first resurrection" was in reference to verse 4:

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Note carefully the different groups here:

"I saw thrones and they sat on them:" This includes the church and Old Testament saints together. 

"The souls of those beheaded:"  This is a separate group from the above. These were martyred during the 70th week.

All the righteous will be a part of this CHIEF of resurrections - including Christ when He rose. It is the resurrection FOR the righteous, hense, it is the chief or most honorable resurrection.

Edited April 1, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

On 3/14/2019 at 8:47 PM, ENOCH2010 said:

Because Rev.20 is another fly in the ointment of the pre-trib doctrine 

How can you say that? Rev. 20 fits perfectly with pretrib. 

If you doubt this, show us who it conflicts.

[iamlamad]

On 3/14/2019 at 11:47 PM, R. Hartono said:

The greek word PROTE/first in this sentence means precedes, so the resurrection of Rev 20 precedes the resurrection before the Great White Throne judgment after the 1000 years Millennium of Jesus.

I beg to differ: in context, it means the most honorable - simply because it is alone for the righteous.  It CAN be used as a sequence word, but that usage does not fit the context. Jesus was a part of this chief of resurrections.

[iamlamad]

On 3/14/2019 at 11:54 PM, R. Hartono said:

The resurrection in Revelation 20 is not the same as the rapture is that it is simply a resurrection only. These Tribulation Saints died because they refused to worship the image of the beast or take the mark of the beast, and they are not "caught up" to meet Jesus in the air as we see in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18. They are resurrected, and remain on earth to rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years. They are NOT the Church!

But those seated on thrones ARE the church - plus the Old Testament saints.

[iamlamad]

On 3/15/2019 at 4:08 AM, Diaste said:

Is there scriptural support for:

1) The resurrection in Revelation 20 is not the same as the rapture is that it is simply a resurrection only.

2) they are not "caught up" to meet Jesus in the air as we see in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

3) They are resurrected, and remain on earth to rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years

4) They are NOT the Church!

Please post Chapter and Verse that says specifically, and in so many words, "The tribulation saints are not part of the church." or some variation. And if you can please do this with the other three ideas above as well.

It would seem that they ALL (both groups of verse 4) reign with Christ a thousand years.