R. Hartono Posted March 16, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 772 Topics Per Day: 0.34 Content Count: 6,933 Content Per Day: 3.07 Reputation: 1,979 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/15/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted March 16, 2019 (edited) The beast will make war with the tribulation saints and over come them : Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. Those saints were beheaded because they do not worship the beast : Rev 20:4 and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, HOW COULD THE BEAST MAKE WAR WITH THE CHURCH IF THEY ARE ALREADY CAUGHT UP TO THE CLOUD ALIVE AND BE WITH THE LORD FOREVER ? 1 Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. THE ONLY EXPLANATION IS THAT THOSE TRIBULATION SAINTS ARE NOT THE CHURCH OF 1 THES 4:17 THE 2 WITNESSES OF GOD Will ROAM THE EARTH TO GIVE TESTIMONY OF CHRIST AND WIN PEOPLE (TRIBULATION SAINTS) THE TRIBULATION SAINTS BEHEADED BY THE BEAST ARE NOT THE CHURCH OF 1 THES 4:17 EXACTLY !!! Edited March 16, 2019 by R. Hartono 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENOCH2010 Posted March 16, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted March 16, 2019 Or the pre-trib doctrine is false 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted March 16, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,194 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,494 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted March 16, 2019 3 hours ago, R. Hartono said: The beast will make war with the tribulation saints and over come them : Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. Those saints were beheaded because they do not worship the beast : Rev 20:4 and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, HOW COULD THE BEAST MAKE WAR WITH THE CHURCH IF THEY ARE ALREADY CAUGHT UP TO THE CLOUD ALIVE AND BE WITH THE LORD FOREVER ? 1 Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. THE ONLY EXPLANATION IS THAT THOSE TRIBULATION SAINTS ARE NOT THE CHURCH OF 1 THES 4:17 THE 2 WITNESSES OF GOD Will ROAM THE EARTH TO GIVE TESTIMONY OF CHRIST AND WIN PEOPLE (TRIBULATION SAINTS) THE TRIBULATION SAINTS BEHEADED BY THE BEAST ARE NOT THE CHURCH OF 1 THES 4:17 EXACTLY !!! Hi R.Hartono, I agree. Marilyn. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted March 17, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,626 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 17, 2019 On 3/15/2019 at 9:25 PM, R. Hartono said: THE ONLY EXPLANATION IS THAT THOSE TRIBULATION SAINTS ARE NOT THE CHURCH OF 1 THES 4:17 No, it's just the explanation you prefer. On 3/15/2019 at 9:25 PM, R. Hartono said: THE 2 WITNESSES OF GOD Will ROAM THE EARTH TO GIVE TESTIMONY OF CHRIST AND WIN PEOPLE (TRIBULATION SAINTS) No, there is no scripture that says they will roam the earth; the allusion is they are in Israel, or Jerusalem, exclusively. On 3/15/2019 at 9:25 PM, R. Hartono said: THE TRIBULATION SAINTS BEHEADED BY THE BEAST ARE NOT THE CHURCH OF 1 THES 4:17 EXACTLY !!! Of course not, creating divisions in the body allows for just about any interpretation. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Hartono Posted March 18, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 772 Topics Per Day: 0.34 Content Count: 6,933 Content Per Day: 3.07 Reputation: 1,979 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/15/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 18, 2019 11 hours ago, Diaste said: No, there is no scripture that says they will roam the earth; the allusion is they are in Israel, or Jerusalem, exclusively. The 2 prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth, which clearly shows they will roam the earth. Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted March 18, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,111 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,550 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Share Posted March 18, 2019 On 3/15/2019 at 9:25 PM, R. Hartono said: The beast will make war with the tribulation saints and over come them : Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. Those saints were beheaded because they do not worship the beast : Rev 20:4 and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, HOW COULD THE BEAST MAKE WAR WITH THE CHURCH IF THEY ARE ALREADY CAUGHT UP TO THE CLOUD ALIVE AND BE WITH THE LORD FOREVER ? 1 Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. THE ONLY EXPLANATION IS THAT THOSE TRIBULATION SAINTS ARE NOT THE CHURCH OF 1 THES 4:17 THE 2 WITNESSES OF GOD Will ROAM THE EARTH TO GIVE TESTIMONY OF CHRIST AND WIN PEOPLE (TRIBULATION SAINTS) THE TRIBULATION SAINTS BEHEADED BY THE BEAST ARE NOT THE CHURCH OF 1 THES 4:17 EXACTLY !!! You start with the presumption that the saints during the time of the tribulation will also be present during the time of the Beast. And then build upon your presumption with further rationalizations. It is much more useful to start with what you can show, not what you presume. Those who follow the latter course often find they have built upon a foundation of sand. The last mention of the Great Tribulation is in Rev. 7:14, describing the ascended saints who "came out of the Great Tribulation." The Beast does not appear on the scene until afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted March 18, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,991 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,689 Content Per Day: 11.82 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 18, 2019 On 3/15/2019 at 8:25 PM, R. Hartono said: The beast will make war with the tribulation saints and over come them : Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. Those saints were beheaded because they do not worship the beast : Rev 20:4 and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, HOW COULD THE BEAST MAKE WAR WITH THE CHURCH IF THEY ARE ALREADY CAUGHT UP TO THE CLOUD ALIVE AND BE WITH THE LORD FOREVER ? 1 Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. THE ONLY EXPLANATION IS THAT THOSE TRIBULATION SAINTS ARE NOT THE CHURCH OF 1 THES 4:17 THE 2 WITNESSES OF GOD Will ROAM THE EARTH TO GIVE TESTIMONY OF CHRIST AND WIN PEOPLE (TRIBULATION SAINTS) THE TRIBULATION SAINTS BEHEADED BY THE BEAST ARE NOT THE CHURCH OF 1 THES 4:17 EXACTLY !!! Revelation 13:7 This verse deals with the martyrs who are on the earth. They will die for their belief in Christ and will become tribulation saints. Revelation 20:4 You are adding your own words to Scripture. I don't see the word "Church" anywhere in the passage. The Church was raptured before the 7 year tribulation started. Only the martyrs remain on earth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted March 18, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,626 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 18, 2019 9 hours ago, R. Hartono said: The 2 prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth, which clearly shows they will roam the earth. Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. Won't work in a practical sense. You are contending that to strike the earth with plagues they would have to be local relative to the plague, or withholding the rain. How are they going to be everywhere at once? They that dwell on the earth is as ambiguous as bi-weekly. Even a remote tribe in SA can be said to dwell on the earth. I for one will need more evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Hartono Posted March 20, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 772 Topics Per Day: 0.34 Content Count: 6,933 Content Per Day: 3.07 Reputation: 1,979 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/15/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 20, 2019 On 3/19/2019 at 2:47 AM, Diaste said: How are they going to be everywhere at once? Like Philip did. Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Cæsarea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choir loft Posted April 2, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,209 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 328 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/23/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/10/1947 Share Posted April 2, 2019 (edited) On 3/15/2019 at 11:25 PM, R. Hartono said: The beast will make war with the tribulation saints and over come them : Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. Those saints were beheaded because they do not worship the beast : Rev 20:4 and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, HOW COULD THE BEAST MAKE WAR WITH THE CHURCH IF THEY ARE ALREADY CAUGHT UP TO THE CLOUD ALIVE AND BE WITH THE LORD FOREVER ? 1 Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. THE ONLY EXPLANATION IS THAT THOSE TRIBULATION SAINTS ARE NOT THE CHURCH OF 1 THES 4:17 THE 2 WITNESSES OF GOD Will ROAM THE EARTH TO GIVE TESTIMONY OF CHRIST AND WIN PEOPLE (TRIBULATION SAINTS) THE TRIBULATION SAINTS BEHEADED BY THE BEAST ARE NOT THE CHURCH OF 1 THES 4:17 EXACTLY !!! What is a saint? According to Merriam-Webster a saint is either a person who's been canonized by the Roman Catholic pope, a person who has died and gone to heaven or a member of a religious group. Protestant Christians, who are always right about such things, will reject the notion of Catholic sainthood. Their false doctrine of the rapture will deny the definition of saint as one who's gone to heaven because it disagrees with their vertical evacuation theory. They don't like the membership part either because of course nobody can be a saint unless they belong to an American Protestant church. It's all rubbish, but Protestant Christians typically exhibit a double-minded standard about these things. There is no such thing as consistent logic where the rapture is concerned. Few interpreters admit that Jews and the sovereign State of Israel are the focus and purpose of the Tribulation. Instead, like conceited children before a full length mirror, they believe it's all about themselves. It isn't. They also like to think the persecution represents the Roman Catholic church. It isn't about Rome either. What major religion practices beheading as civil and militarist capital punishment? Hint: It isn't Catholicism (they used to prefer to burn people at the stake). It isn't about Protestants either (who once preferred burning or hanging). Hmmmm I wonder what religious group the scripture might indicate by mentioning this particular form of murder? Might this same religious group ALSO have a hateful grudge against Israel in general and Jews in particular? The purpose of the beast is to make war against non-believers. Who are non-believers? They are those who do not surrender to the religion and political system of the beast - identified by its method of execution. (*) I agree with the posit that asks how the beast might make war against the saints if they're all raptured out of town. Logically he cannot, but the rapture is never logical so why ask the question? There isn't an ONLY EXPLANATION, however. One good one is that the rapture is rubbish to begin with. What will happen when earth's population remains entirely untouched by a FAKE vertical evacuation? The rapture doctrine is so FAKE the world will eventually mock the idea and ask, "Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since our ancestors died everything has gone on as it has since the beginning of creation."- 2 Peter 3:4 Rapture fans don't consider this possibility either and will remain single mindedly convinced of their own FAKE doctrine. TWO WITNESSES - who will roam the earth are not going to be puffing the church - which will already have corrupted itself into apostasy and be in league with the beast. Indeed Christendom has already gone a long way toward accepting the principles of demonic deception (the doctrine of the rapture being a fine example). It has only occurred to a few that the two witnesses will be Jews! They will NOT be testifying about the glory of the church or seeking to add to its membership. They will be testifying to the glory of God (Rev. 11:4) and the fact that God is the Lord of history and will cause empires to rise or fall according to His plan for redemption and His wishes. (Daniel 4) “For His dominion is an everlasting dominion, and His kingdom endures from generation to generation. All the peoples of the earth are counted as nothing, and He does as He pleases with the army of heaven and the peoples of the earth. There is no one who can restrain His hand or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’” - Daniel 4:34b-35 that's me, hollering from the choir loft... (*) "Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those who say this are witless. Islam says: Kill all unbelievers just as they would kill you all! There are hundreds of [Qur'anic] psalms and Hadiths urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men frmo waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim." - Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini (founder of the Iranian Islamic Republic) The son of Ishmael (who Muslims claim to be their ancestor) shall be a wild ass of a man. His hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand will be against him. He will live in hostility against all his brothers. (Genesis 16:11-12) Edited April 2, 2019 by choir loft typo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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