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DarrenJClark

Daniel 12:2 and hell

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Daniel 12:2  

"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." 

 

Daniel 12:2 is sometimes cited as evidence of eternal conscious punishment in hell.  I think it does not.  To be sure, the text does says the wicked are resurrected and that they will experience shame.  That shame, however, is not said to be eternal or everlasting.  There is a mention of everlasting contempt.  Nevertheless, the word for "contempt" only appears in one other place in the Bible.  In Isaiah 66:24 where the word is used in the clause " they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh".  The "they" refers to the corpses of God's slain enemies and not to people who are alive and kicking.  It appears that one does not have to be alive and conscious to be help in contempt or to be abhorred.  Therefore, "everlasting contempt" does not show that people will be alive forever experiencing contempt.

 

Isaiah 66:24 

"And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."  

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On 3/16/2019 at 4:24 AM, DarrenJClark said:

Daniel 12:2  

"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." 

 

Daniel 12:2 is sometimes cited as evidence of eternal conscious punishment in hell.  I think it does not.  To be sure, the text does says the wicked are resurrected and that they will experience shame.  That shame, however, is not said to be eternal or everlasting.  There is a mention of everlasting contempt.  Nevertheless, the word for "contempt" only appears in one other place in the Bible.  In Isaiah 66:24 where the word is used in the clause " they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh".  The "they" refers to the corpses of God's slain enemies and not to people who are alive and kicking.  It appears that one does not have to be alive and conscious to be help in contempt or to be abhorred.  Therefore, "everlasting contempt" does not show that people will be alive forever experiencing contempt.

 

Isaiah 66:24 

"And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."  

Jesus came to save us from Hell.

There is now a way to avoid Hell.

Why discuss what Hell will be like?

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Sometimes you have to deliver the bad news in order to get one to care about the good news.I am a subscriber to the Bad Cop/ Good Cop Method Of conversion.Jesus wasted no time getting to the scary stuff— read The Sermon on the Mound  near the beginning of the first Gospel.Paul did not hesitate either—read the first two chapters of his first letter to us in Romans.One needs to see himself as a lost sinner before their heart is made contrite and ready for the Gospel Of 1cor15:1-4 

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3 hours ago, Who me said:

Jesus came to save us from Hell.

There is now a way to avoid Hell.

Why discuss what Hell will be like?

You could not discuss hell if you want to ignore those verses that teach something about hell.   Maybe God made a mistake when he included that teaching (sarcasm intended).

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On 3/16/2019 at 12:24 AM, DarrenJClark said:

Daniel 12:2  

"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." 

To the first part, Daniel is speaking of the same thing as the apostle Paul wrote of in 1 Thes.4:13-17. .. the dead rise alive, and those who are alive .. they both are changed to immortal with glorified bodies.

To the second part, Daniel is speaking of the same thing as the apostle John wrote of in Rev.19:20-21, 20:1-3, 10-15.

On 3/16/2019 at 12:24 AM, DarrenJClark said:

Daniel 12:2 is sometimes cited as evidence of eternal conscious punishment in hell.  I think it does not. 

The verses in Revelations say otherwise. Hell wouldn't be much to shun if it was only oblivion. .. what salvation would there be from that? Why would God launch a huge campaign in sending His own son to deliver mankind from that sort of end? The word Hell being synonymous with punishment was not by accident or someone's mere overactive imagination.

On 3/16/2019 at 12:24 AM, DarrenJClark said:

To be sure, the text does says the wicked are resurrected and that they will experience shame.  That shame, however, is not said to be eternal or everlasting. 

The shame of the demons being defeated by the triumph of the cross is eternal explains why it says If the rulers of this world had understood, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory (Col.2:14-15; 1 Cor.2:8) 

On 3/16/2019 at 12:24 AM, DarrenJClark said:

There is a mention of everlasting contempt.  Nevertheless, the word for "contempt" only appears in one other place in the Bible.  In Isaiah 66:24 where the word is used in the clause " they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh".  The "they" refers to the corpses of God's slain enemies and not to people who are alive and kicking. 

Everlasting punishment in Hell is the final judgment, while the contempt from the living is upon those who got their just recompense from God.

On 3/16/2019 at 12:24 AM, DarrenJClark said:

It appears that one does not have to be alive and conscious to be help in contempt or to be abhorred. 

There are two deaths that the Bible speaks of. The living death due to sin (Eph.2:1) and the death of the body.

What Jesus spoke of concerning Lazarus in the upper part of Hell and the rich man in the lower part of Hell is evident that sinners are very much conscious of their punishment.

On 3/16/2019 at 12:24 AM, DarrenJClark said:

Therefore, "everlasting contempt" does not show that people will be alive forever experiencing contempt.

Isaiah 66:24 

"And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."  

The word "horror", "abhorrence", "aversion".. is also "reproach". Job 31:3 "Is not calamity for the unrighteous, and disaster for the workers of iniquity?"

Concerning Is.66:24.. The worm shall not die and the fire not be quenched because both feed on those who rebelled while they were alive on the earth. Though physically alive they were spiritually dead by choice and without God in the world. Thus their punishment is torment in Hell without God, sharing in the punishment of satan and all of his demons.. who remain in Hell eternally.

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8 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

To the first part, Daniel is speaking of the same thing as the apostle Paul wrote of in 1 Thes.4:13-17. .. the dead rise alive, and those who are alive .. they both are changed to immortal with glorified bodies.

To the second part, Daniel is speaking of the same thing as the apostle John wrote of in Rev.19:20-21, 20:1-3, 10-15.

And people complain we conditionalists read the OT through the lens of the NT.  That is exactly what you do here.  Having to appeal to other texts shows you can't quite explain from Daniel 12:2 how it supports the idea of eternal conscious punishment in hell.

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8 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

The verses in Revelations say otherwise. Hell wouldn't be much to shun if it was only oblivion. .. what salvation would there be from that? Why would God launch a huge campaign in sending His own son to deliver mankind from that sort of end? The word Hell being synonymous with punishment was not by accident or someone's mere overactive imagination.

"The verses in Revelations say otherwise."

 

No.  The verses in Revelation do not say otherwise.  The single verse you have that has eternal torment in Revelation 20:10 and that directly speaks to only three individuals.  There is a lot of debate over whether they even are individual sentient beings with many arguing they represent human institutions.  You should settle that question first.  Then you have to infer that all other humans suffer torment when thrown into the lake of fire when John specifically says this is their second death.  You have to make a bit of a jump there.  In an interpretive section of Revelation we are told the Beast's fate is one of destruction (Rev 17:8).  So while you admittedly have this one verse (but no other at all in the Bible) that mentions eternal torment you do not have a prooftext that has all you need in a didactic passage.  The highly symbolic nature of the genre warns against just taking a flat reading and there are ample reasons to think John wanted us to read this verse as teaching the destruction of the wicked.

 

"Hell wouldn't be much to shun if it was only oblivion. .. what salvation would there be from that? Why would God launch a huge campaign in sending His own son to deliver mankind from that sort of end? The word Hell being synonymous with punishment was not by accident or someone's mere overactive imagination."

 

Who says?  These are just bald assertions.  What matters is what the Bible actually teaches.

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8 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

The shame of the demons being defeated by the triumph of the cross is eternal explains why it says If the rulers of this world had understood, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory (Col.2:14-15; 1 Cor.2:8) 

Daniel 12:2, Col 2:14-15, and 1 Cor 2:8 do not speak to demons or to eternal shame.  That is all you bringing that to the text.

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8 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

Everlasting punishment in Hell is the final judgment, while the contempt from the living is upon those who got their just recompense from God.

I never denied the punishment is everlasting.  Being dead forever is everlasting death.  If capital punishment is the final punishment, and it is not reversed it is literally everlasting punishment.  You are correct, the contempt from the living is upon those who got their just recompense from God.  That is my point.  Everlasting contempt is not something you necessarily feel,  Un the context of Is 66:24 it describes the disposition of the living towards the dead.

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8 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

There are two deaths that the Bible speaks of. The living death due to sin (Eph.2:1) and the death of the body.

What Jesus spoke of concerning Lazarus in the upper part of Hell and the rich man in the lower part of Hell is evident that sinners are very much conscious of their punishment.

In Ephesians 2:1 Paul is using the concept of death to metaphorically speak of the unreceptiveness of sinners to God because of their transgressions and sins.  Just like a corpse cannot respond to the living so also the dead cannot respond to God.  That is why they are made alive in Christ (Eph 2:5) and brought close to God (v13).

 

Luke 16 is literally set in Hades (mistakenly translated as Hell in some translations) and therefore is concerned with the intermediate state.  The last judgment literally is concerned with the final state of sinners.  Go to passages like Matthew 3:12: 10:28; and, 13:40-42 and you will see this final state is their death and destruction.  

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