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Jostler

Eternal Judgement

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2 hours ago, Jostler said:

tilting at windmills bro....tilting  at windmills.  I never stated or implied works can save and don't believe that for one second.  What are you on about here? :)  

Your words:- 6 fundamental doctrines we must master and leave.

We don't have to master anything. By stating that we do you are saying that we must work at salvation, that to be saved there are levels that have to be reached.

If you don't mean that, use different words.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Shalom Jostler,

You raise an interesting topic here.

It seems that in the New World there are those outside of New Jerusalem, pining to be inside.  These seem to me to be those who are saved but only just, "as escaping from a fire" - as mentioned in Scripture.  These could be the people that have put their faith in the name of Jesus only, but have no works of faith or love fitting for a good reward.  For, in 2 Corinthians, Paul mentions that there are rewards for those for whether they have done good OR BAD in the body.  This theory can also be confirmed with the book of Revelation and such stories as the parable of the wedding guest who is not well-dressed and is "cast outside, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth".   It is also more clearly defined though in the apocryphal book of Enoch - but I will leave that aside for now.

In terms of some stars differing from another, this could, again, tie in to the differing rewards as well. This can be confirmed with such stories as the parable of the minas and more clearly in the apocryphal books of 2 Baruch and 2 Esdras.

In summary, the above makes perfect sense to me.  We are notified throughout the New Testament to build riches for ourselves in Heaven for our next life and to seek the glorious rewards from Him in the world to come.  For, if one Christian helps his spiritual family in every way he can, gives much to the poor and stand up to persecution in the name of Jesus, will he get the same glorious rewards as the other Christian, who abuses his wife, ignores the poor and spends every free hour in World of Warcraft? 

Works do matter.  Obedience does matter.  Many may scream "I've saved by the blood and in grace and mercy, all my sins are nailed to the cross!!!".  Fine, and now what are you going to do with your freedom?  

Love & Shalom

amen and amen.   This is pretty much my understanding and it's an important revelation.  Foundational in fact :)  You alluded to a lot of evidence providing  some  good Scriptural support and there is still more we can find.

such as:

Quote
“Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain.  He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life."

I'll try to avoid writing another book.....lol.  But here we see Jesus presenting Himself as a 'seed' and pointing specifically to the fact He had to die before His life could "bear fruit" in the form of "many more like" Him.  If we have a decent understanding of the Genesis "law" proclaiming that seed produces "after it's own kind" and we have a good grounding  in the  Parable of the Sower and all the various "harvest" themed parables, we can start drawing in some fresh insights from this.

If Jesus  is our "example in faith and practice" and He is a seed, then so are we.  The major difference is that when we are "planted"  in death and spring and grow up into a harvest on the other side, we obviously will not produce  salvation for anyone.  But we WILL BEAR FRUIT.  And it will be "after the kind of the seed"

Just a 30,000 foot view - you can probably flesh this out with a few more Scriptures, but....given all the background about seeds we can see from the Word

we can understand that seeds, even of the  same type...may under-produce or outproduce one another.  And the interesting thing about a seed is that ALL the qualities that will determine the size, vigor, health and productivity of any plant will necessarily be formed in the seed BEFORE it dies.  After the seed dies there is no more potential for change.

So a seed that grew in a drought year, received insufficient rain, was perhaps weakened by a blight....might end up being a shriveled, undersized, undernourished seed.  A seed like that might still be viable, and spring and grow  up, but  produce a spindly, weak  plant that might expend all it's energy just creating the plant and never able to "set" fruit of its own...or  it might  produce a weak harvest of just a few grains of wheat  or whatever.

Conversely, a seed that was grown in a well watered year, got weeded and never suffered from a blight, is likely to produce a huge head of grain with many, many seeds.

We will be rewarded (in a very real sense) based on how many seeds we produce...which is based on qualities sown into us prior to death.

Quote
and provide for those who grieve in Zion— to bestow on them a crown of beauty instead of ashes, the oil of joy instead of mourning, and a garment of praise instead of a spirit of despair. They will be called oaks of righteousness, a planting of the LORD for the display of his splendor.

Not all seeds in the Kingdom are wheat.  But whatever He designed us to be, when we are planted in the hot  soil of Heaven, we will spring  and grow up before Him, and if a spindly weak sapling appears where He appointed an Oak  of Righteousness to be, we will suffer loss.  And at that time, He will give us a new name, based on what He sees.

The parable of the talents enlightens and informs some of that understanding too.

Edited by Jostler
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33 minutes ago, Who me said:

Your words:- 6 fundamental doctrines we must master and leave.

We don't have to master anything. By stating that we do you are saying that we must work at salvation, that to be saved there are levels that have to be reached.

If you don't mean that, use different words.

You're taking  issue with what the Word says....not me.  Take it up with Him.

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Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop—some thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times what was sown.”

 

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47 minutes ago, Jostler said:

we can understand that seeds, even of the  same type...may underproduce or outproduce one another.  And the interesting thing about a seed is that ALL the qualities that will determine the size, vigor, health and productivity of a seed will necessarily be implanted in the seed BEFORE it dies.  After the seed dies there is no more potential for change.

To be a productive seed, I need to abide in Christ.  

In  John 15:4-5 Jesus says, "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in Me.  I am the vine, you are the branches.  He who abides in me and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing." 

If I choose not to abide in Him, I will still produce fruit--jealousy, idolatry, anger, etc.,  and perhaps even occasionally some halfway decent fruit, like a few random acts of generosity or kindness.  The seed from this kind of fruit produces nothing good or strong. 

On the other hand, if I choose to abide in Him, to hand over all the cultivating tools to His Holy Spirit, I will produce fruit of a totally different nature, as described in Galatians 5:22-23: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and sel-control.  This fruit is bursting with good seed because it is attached and has been fed from the True Vine. 

My only hope is to be attached to Jesus in the here and now.

Jesus said, "I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of Mine that doesn't produce fruit, and He prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more.  You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in Me, and I will remain in you.  For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in Me" (John 15:1-4).

My understanding is that all the qualities implanted in the seed that I am come from the nourishment of the Vine.  These qualities are not my good works; but if I am abiding in Jesus, they will produce good works and good results in all my relationships. I have to allow for pruning to strengthen me.  Ouch!  Sometimes it hurts!  But the fruit of the Spirit is strong! :) 

 

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, PromisesPromises! said:

To be a productive seed, I need to abide in Christ.  

In  John 15:4-5 Jesus says, "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in Me.  I am the vine, you are the branches.  He who abides in me and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing." 

If I choose not to abide in Him, I will still produce fruit--jealousy, idolatry, anger, etc.,  and perhaps even occasionally some halfway decent fruit, like a few random acts of generosity or kindness.  The seed from this kind of fruit produces nothing good or strong. 

On the other hand, if I choose to abide in Him, to hand over all the cultivating tools to His Holy Spirit, I will produce fruit of a totally different nature, as described in Galatians 5:22-23: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and sel-control.  This fruit is bursting with good seed because it is attached and has been fed from the True Vine. 

My only hope is to be attached to Jesus in the here and now.

Jesus said, "I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of Mine that doesn't produce fruit, and He prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more.  You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in Me, and I will remain in you.  For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in Me" (John 15:1-4).

My understanding is that all the qualities implanted in the seed that I am come from the nourishment of the Vine.  These qualities are not my good works; but if I am abiding in Jesus, they will produce good works and good results in all my relationships. I have to allow for pruning to strengthen me.  Ouch!  Sometimes it hurts!  But the fruit of the Spirit is strong! :) 

 

I see a very slight diversion from the concepts of eternal judgement, but it's still great insights and still related in a way too.  You're drawing on analogies meant to paint a picture of how a fruitful LIFE  is produced, and all that will certainly affect what we finally become before we die.  Abiding in Him  IS what prepares the "seed" planted when we die to produce all He  intended for us to become after we die.  What we become is determined by how much of that pre-determined plan of "good works" we actually complete, that He appointed us to walk in beforehand.  We CANNOT walk in those good works apart from abiding in Him, because those "good works" are not really us working anyway.  The simply happen as He works through us - it's Him working  - while we abide in His REST....ceasing from  our own works.  The pruning in this life is also related to abiding in Him  and  all of it has an effect on our condition  at death.  Any other works apart from those He  appoints, no matter how good they look to us or to others, will be counted works of the flesh and count for nothing in the next life.  Abiding in Him is not optional for any who hope to become and produce all He intends in this life, or the next.

Edit to add:  after re-reading your post a couple of times I got the idea we're saying pretty much the same things but looking  at it from  slightly  different  angles, a little different emphasis...but getting more than one perspective on a topic this important is a great thing :)  Thanks for sharing :)

Edited by Jostler
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Posted (edited)

@Tzephanyahu left a couple of real nuggets in his post I want to get back to.  He  actually began to address and open up a couple of my  earlier questions and I got  focused on other  parts of his contribution and neglected those parts.  But I better get some  sleep one of these years :)  I'll be sure to get back to that when my eyeballs are less full of  sand :)

Edited by Jostler
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15 hours ago, Jostler said:

So, let me ask a question.  In relation to "eternal  judgement".  I'm very curious  to  see what discussion  this might prompt :)

 

Regarding this part, I'd go to Genesis to get the answer. The Judgement is that one is not saved from death if they do not BELIEVE. And by "believe", I mean what the rest of hebrews talks about regarding faith and belief. 

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15 hours ago, Jostler said:

Rev 22:14-15

Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.  But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

_____

 

What do those verses tell us about eternal judgement?  Is there a connection?  (there is)

I believe there may be. Thing is, the new Jerusalem sits on the earth at this point. And it appears there will be both people allowed into the city and those not allowed in. So, a question: Is the area outside the city forever a "Road Warrior" type place, or is it a place of eternal life for those that did not wash their robes? Personally, I've found dozens of theories on it, most agreeing in some way and disagreeing in others. 

But I think the Revelation of Jesus is written primarily to believers, and so relates to the gospel (good news) message of salvation with a warning about deeds. i.e. you may be saved, but there are sill levels based on your DEEDS.

 

Just thinking out loud here...

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Justification by faith vs works.  An age old question by now.  It is true that by our own works we cannot attain salvation.  Paul is quite clear on this concept in Romans and Galatians.  However, we must reconcile James statement that faith without works is dead.  Any thoughts?

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