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Jostler

Eternal Judgement

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I find the way this discussion is going very interesting and am enjoying it.

I have often considered the "rewards in heaven" and wondered how to approach that.

With salvation a given, I believe that if they become a focus / reason for doing Gods good works afterwards they become self serving.

How do we look at what appears to be an obvious works/ rewards system and approach it in an "other centered" way without it causing us to keep a tally sheet?

Also, is it possible to have heaven on earth (the New Jerusalem) with hell just outside the door (Rev.22:14-15). I'm pretty sure I don't want to be looking outside seeing people suffering, for what ever reason.

There is just something about the competitive nature we have that makes us want to look better than other people that I really don't believe has a place in Gods Kingdom.

I think there is more to understanding these passages than what we see on the face.

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, francesco said:

Justification by faith vs works.  An age old question by now.  It is true that by our own works we cannot attain salvation.  Paul is quite clear on this concept in Romans and Galatians.  However, we must reconcile James statement that faith without works is dead.  Any thoughts?

That one there is a little easier to understand.

In order for us to have greater trust (faith) in God we have to trust when we asks us to do something that He will be with us as we do it.

As we continue to step out and see that He is with us our faith grows more and more.

If we don't step out (works) in faith then even though say we have faith our inaction proves that we really don't.

It is a different kind of faith from that which is known as religion or even to a great extent, that needed for salvation.

Of course, this growth of faith may figure into the discussion.

Edited by Mike 2
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Thank you Mike 2 for your well thought out comments.  These present a quite logical premise.  Each time I observe a seeming contradiction in the bible I assume that I've misinterpreted or missed something somewhere.  It is a deep book.  Thanks again for the input.

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6 hours ago, Mike 2 said:

That one there is a little easier to understand.

 

6 hours ago, Mike 2 said:

In order for us to have greater trust (faith) in God we have to trust when we asks us to do something that He will be with us as we do it.

When he asks us to initiate something, to do the initial act, he will be with us to take matters into his own hands, and providing everything for having the result he had in his mind, not what we thought will happened, (that's why we have to follow him in what he asks, putting our agentas on the side), so as to accoblish his will, which we did not know at the bigining, but he will let us know at the end...

Then when he say to us (here during our time), good and faithful servant, or how much he loves us, because we help him accoblish his proposed, at the same time he will give us our spiritual gift, which it will increase and broaden our understanding and open our mind to a new level..

There many examples we have inheritted from the scriptures and are ongoing ones and will continue to be...

One it has to do with Philip...

Let's say in his case that Philip had settle in the church of Jerusalem and his abitions were to establish himself and grow together with them. Could be many times the church sent Philip to missions , as to visit the families of believers and explain the Gospel to them, and pray for their sick. 

We know from the part, that the other disciples were looking for Philip, they did not know his where abouts...

That the Lord took Philip from them and he did not tell the church what he was about to do...

So Philip he kept it to himself and did not tell anyone, it means that Philip did not asked for the church blessing or the elders prayers, and he did not seek second opinion to have someon verified the will of the Lord in this situation, it sound hard, but this a situation where the church did not sent him, or the Lord kept from the church what he was about to do. I believe that the church was not yet ready for sending Philip to Samaritans, and the would have opposed, because of the way the represented the Gospel, as they did not have the revelation yet, Peter had upon visiting the Cornilius Family, that Jesus has remove the uncleaness from the world, making everyone clean,  as the Samaritans were in the same group with the Gentiles. 

This post among other things is also about rewards, and the emphasis is that along the way Philip pick up his rewards from the Lord, along with a pat on the back Philip also got his spiritual gifts, to equipped for his ministry, which open his understanding to give tje Gospel to Samaritans the Jesus way, and not the coultural Jewish way...

Philip needed the rewards of the good servant here on earth...

In Heaven there is no need for the gifts of the Holy Spirit, Jesus is the light as we are informed in the speach of the Angel of the Lord to the churches. 

Many mouths who were bubbling accusations that Philip was not following the doctrine of the church in Jerusalem, if they were not silenced when they heard about the miraculous things Jesus did in Samaria, they will get to know they were wrong from Jesus when the get there after their death and before their body decay...

And at that time they will beg Jesus not to sent them back to their body if that was what they were preaching...

He asked Philip to step out in faith, and guided him, along the way step by step... providing for him along the way. 

 

6 hours ago, Mike 2 said:

As we continue to step out and see that He is with us our faith grows more and more.

If we don't step out (works) in faith then even though say we have faith our inaction proves that we really don't.

It is a different kind of faith from that which is known as religion or even to a great extent, that needed for salvation.

Of course, this growth of faith may figure into the discussion.

Interesting post...

 

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On 3/20/2019 at 10:48 AM, Who me said:

We are saved by grace, not by what we do.

If you have not master thgis basic teaching you need to re examin the gospel message.

Not that we are to ignore the 10C or to live a sinful life, our obedience to Jesus's commands is not to earn anything, but is a demonstration of our Love for him.

What we do is important as without good deeds (good works in KJV) faith is dead: 

James 2:14-26 New International Version (NIV)

Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[b]and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

.Unfortunately there are many people who I have argued with and they criticized me for my promotion of the idea of good work together with faith. They think that faith draws good works automatically. I think good works need efforts and they do not come by themselves. 

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On 3/20/2019 at 12:51 AM, Jostler said:

Works do matter.  Obedience does matter.  Many may scream "I've saved by the blood and in grace and mercy, all my sins are nailed to the cross!!!".  Fine, and now what are you going to do with your freedom?  

I turned my freedom over to my Lord and became His bond slave, ...that way I don't have to make the decisions, the Holy Spirit does that for me, ...why complicate it, it's so simple a child can understand it!

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Works do matter.  Obedience does matter.  Many may scream "I've saved by the blood and in grace and mercy, all my sins are nailed to the cross!!!".  Fine, and now what are you going to do with your freedom?  

 

I would be one of those “ screamers”.I would take my freedom and do whatever I want to do.What do I want to do? I want to rest in the finished work at the Cross and watch Him change me from the inside out and be His willing Slave.Christianity must really look crazy to those not in the Body of Christ.Being set free only to  choose to become a slave—— who woulda thunk it?

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5 hours ago, JustPassingThru said:

I turned my freedom over to my Lord and became His bond slave, ...that way I don't have to make the decisions, the Holy Spirit does that for me, ...why complicate it, it's so simple a child can understand it!

I cannot see anything in the scriptures that suggest this mindset. 

Am I missing something? 

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8 hours ago, vlad said:

What we do is important as without good deeds (good works in KJV) faith is dead: 

James 2:14-26 New International Version (NIV)

Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[b]and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

.Unfortunately there are many people who I have argued with and they criticized me for my promotion of the idea of good work together with faith. They think that faith draws good works automatically. I think good works need efforts and they do not come by themselves. 

We have a story of a Syrian Man, who was not a heir of the Abrahamic promises...

His name wss Nathan, who as a comamder of the Syrian Army, invaded Israel for the whole proposed to find God's prophet Eliza...

He looked for him in the hope that the Eliza interseed for him to the Almighty God of Israel to heal him from his leprosy.  

We should take note og something, this man did not have an example of someone beeing heal by leprosy before among the children of Israel...

Leprosy was a sickness that made the people unclean, as a result he was considered double unclean or maybe even triple or quatro....been a Syrian, having leprosy, worshiping the Idols, and having gone to his idols for healing, and perhaps him on earlier times or his father, and or his nation have attack israel.....that's enouph of the negative going for him....

Inspite of all that he believed that the prophet Eliza could help him, as the prophets of Almighty God have help Syrians before...

So he believed that the God Almighty can help him and heal him, he can show him his kindness as he has done in the past through his prophet....

On the insistence of the prophet, he diped himself seven times in the river Jordan and he came out the seven time clean from his leprosy...

 This man a Syrian of the Syrian army who he had the position to stand on the right of the Syrian King, a man most homor ny the King, for his battles of war...

Enter and eventually left Istael and no one was hurt...

I will take it that the fear the Israelites had been in alert mode, anticipating what when they see the Syrians , I guess the results of an invation. 

And the other enemies of Israel hearing the events believe that Israel, or the God of Israel had given Israel an ally who protected their boarder at least from the north....

This event has all the elements James taulks about...

This Syrian had the faith that the God Almighty will reach out to him... 

And did not stayed in his country and sent his army to arrest Eliza and bring him to Syria and offered him a big gift and also peace in Israsel fro the Syrians in exange for his healing. 

That could have been some work to accompany his faith to bring the prophet before him...

But instand set out to meet him where he was, and on the insistence of the prophet he accompany his faith with a new faith and a new work that the prophet put before him and his faith and work according to the word of the prophet produced his healing....

Good analogy, for the suggestion of James. 

We see that the one who needed help had to have not only the faith as in this case Nathan had, but also he believed in the word of the prophet to do what he asked him to do, to dip in the Jordan river and the seven time out he will be clean from leprosy....

There is something strange in James suggestion, and we always examine...

The needy person asking help, he is let's say the hungry. 

He was supposed to have the faith and by asking he did, but he did not seem to wanting to do any work, and he wanted something for without contributing anything, not even the promise to do something in the future. in exange  for food. 

The asking person's faith with this having man got him nothing. 

He still got something. 

The having man encourage him to keep on nocking on doors till he find someone to help him without works...

Having in mind if he believed that God wants to help him , that way, God eventualy will lead him to the right person who will respond and help him....

This obviously has something to do with the needs of having something to eat...

If you see anything else to be saved here becides hunger please let me know, could also be that they were visiting and looking for someone to put them up with....

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18 hours ago, vlad said:

What we do is important as without good deeds (good works in KJV) faith is dead:

James 2:14-26 New International Version (NIV)

Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15

Faith and works are not equal in importance.

If they were then works on there own would save.

We show that we have faith by our works, works do not prove that there is faith.

 

We show our love for Kjesus by our obedience to his commands.

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