Leyla Posted May 9, 2019 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 162 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/08/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/24/1997 Share Posted May 9, 2019 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Still Alive said: Think of it like this hypothetical: I love my Ferrari. Some guy comes on to the Ferrari forum and want's to know what is so good about them and keeps comparing them to Lamborghinis. And when I say that they have really good red paint, the poster says, but Lambo's have really good paint. And I say, but Lambo paint has been shown to only last four years while Ferrari paint lasts 10 years, And they say, but doesn't that depend on climate. I say it takes that into account, and they say, but doesn't driving style matter. Its interesting to hear your view, lets put it through my view. I just decided to stop driving my BMW (Islam) and decided to look for another car. The lamborghini (science) seems to be the perfect car for me. There are scientific evidences that it performs well, that it will lead me to a good path and the "paint" seems to be exceptionally good. However, there is this guy that stood out to me so I decided to approach him. He tells me that driving a lamborghini is bad, that it will make me bad, that I want to drive it because my ancestors ate a forbidden fruit and that I will go to hell, a place of eternal torture if I decide to drive that Lambo. He tells me to drive the ferrari (christianity) instead. According to this guy, the ferrari is a car with rocket engines, that it can heal the people that drive in it, that it doesnt need maintenance, it doesnt need petrol and it has the greatest paint ever. After a moment of hesitation I would ask "how much does the ferrari cost"? His answer would be its free because Enzo ferrari, the creator of the ferrari brand decided to sacrifice his income for a few days, and because of this gracious act, we will have free ferraries forever. That would make me doubt even more, so I would naturally ask to have a look on his ferrari. When I ask him to see the ferrari, he gets defensive and tells me that I just have to believe that there is a ferrari and that he doesnt need to proof to me that the ferrari exists. All I need to do is to accept that the ferrari is true, that Enzo Ferrari sacrificed his income for a few days and that I will get a ferrari. He gives me the building plan and manual of the car and expects me to believe that it exists and that I will get it, if I believe in it. When I tell him that I accept that the ferrari exist, he just tells me "good, just wait until you are dead and you will get the chance to drive your ferrari forever, oh and by the way it has the greatest paint it will even last forever". How does it sound from my view? Edited May 9, 2019 by Leyla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkins Posted May 9, 2019 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 289 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/25/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted May 9, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, Leyla said: If we find out that God is evil, then we will have more time enjoying our life and not waste it with things that are useless if a loving God does not exist (praying, church etc) If God is evil while he's God, it all relies on whether he would give you the chance to find out. More likely he won't give you the truth, as this is part of why he's evil. In front of a god who is evil, you can't even confirm what you got is a "find out" or not! Edited May 9, 2019 by Hawkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leyla Posted May 9, 2019 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 162 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/08/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/24/1997 Share Posted May 9, 2019 Just now, Hawkins said: If God is evil while he's God, it all relies on whether he would give you the chance to find out. More like he won't give you the truth, as this is part why he's evil. That goes too far into speculations for me. So far God has only shown to be willing to go through great lengths, to hide his existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkins Posted May 9, 2019 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 289 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/25/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted May 9, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Leyla said: That goes too far into speculations for me. So far God has only shown to be willing to go through great lengths, to hide his existence. In Christianity, that's reasonable. Because by a covenant between God and men, humans will have to rely on faith (thus no evidence) to be saved. That is, if you already know his existence, it could simultaneously mean that you are no longer savable. He will have to hide Himself across the timeline of humanity (as mentioned in the Book of Revelation). Edited May 9, 2019 by Hawkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leyla Posted May 9, 2019 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 162 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/08/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/24/1997 Share Posted May 9, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Hawkins said: In Christianity, that's reasonable. Because by a covenant between God and men, humans will have to rely on faith (thus no evidence) to be saved. That way it punishes people that are highly analytical / have trust issues / have a high standard and rewards people that were lucky with choosing the right religion (mostly being born in the right religion) and sticking with the right faith (One out of thousands of religions, so the probability is small) Edited May 9, 2019 by Leyla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkins Posted May 9, 2019 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 289 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/25/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted May 9, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Leyla said: That way it punishes people that are highly analytical / have trust issues / have a high standard and rewards people that were lucky with choosing the right religion (mostly being born in the right religion) and sticking with the right faith (One out of thousands of religions, so the probability is small) It's never about luck. It's all about resistance. The gospel shall have reached every corner of this world if not because of human/satan resistance. You need to take side sometimes. A truth can stand out of a million falsehood, as someone named satan can have the freewill to create millions of religions. However if you are willing to follow logic, you can see the truth. I can present you logically about what it is and how Christianity can be differentiated from any other religions. Edited May 9, 2019 by Hawkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still Alive Posted May 9, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,024 Content Per Day: 1.34 Reputation: 1,224 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/05/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted May 9, 2019 21 minutes ago, Leyla said: Its interesting to hear your view, lets put it through my view. I just decided to stop driving my BMW (Islam) and decided to look for another car. The lamborghini (science) seems to be the perfect car for me. There are scientific evidences that it performs well, that it will lead me to a good path and the "paint" seems to be exceptionally good. However, there is this guy that stood out to me so I decided to approach him. He tells me that driving a lamborghini is bad, that it will make me bad, that I want to drive it because my ancestors ate a forbidden fruit and that I will go to hell, a place of eternal torture if I decide to drive that Lambo. He tells me to drive the ferrari (christianity) instead. According to this guy, the ferrari is a car with rocket engines, that it can heal the people that drive in it, that it doesnt need maintenance, it doesnt need petrol and it has the greatest paint ever. After a moment of hesitation I would ask "how much does the ferrari cost"? His answer would be its free because Enzo ferrari, the creator of the ferrari brand decided to sacrifice his income for a few days, and because of this gracious act, we will have free ferraries forever. That would make me doubt even more, so I would naturally ask to have a look on his ferrari. When I ask him to see the ferrari, he gets defensive and tells me that I just have to believe that there is a ferrari and that he doesnt need to proof to me that the ferrari exists. All I need to do is to accept that the ferrari is true, that Enzo Ferrari sacrificed his income for a few days and that I will get a ferrari. He gives me the building plan and manual of the car and expects me to believe that it exists and that I will get it, if I believe in it. When I tell him that I accept that the ferrari exist, he just tells me "good, just wait until you are dead and you will get the chance to drive your ferrari forever, oh and by the way it has the greatest paint it will even last forever". How does it sound from my view? Good one! A few points: Science is about how. Religion is about why. And the latter is the higher pursuit. And they are definitely not mutually exclusive. Regarding the invisible Ferrari, because it is dealing with the supernatural realm, it is based on faith. But not BLIND faith. It is based on faith in the same way that your belief that you will receive your tax refund is based on faith. FWIW, I have four bona fide miracles in my life, two of them miraculous healings after prayer. And that doesn't include his involvement in my life on a daily basis. If you are interested in REALLY getting into the weeds on this, a forum like this will not do it. I recommend the links I provided as a good starting point after you avail yourself to Prayer regarding the Lord giving you wisdom on this issue. And the prayer requires faith. If you don't think you have it, appeal to the faith of Jesus. It is what resulted in one of our medical miracles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leyla Posted May 9, 2019 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 162 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/08/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/24/1997 Share Posted May 9, 2019 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Still Alive said: Science is about how. Religion is about why. And the latter is the higher pursuit. And they are definitely not mutually exclusive. I could take the book "Mein Kampf" and choose it as my "why". Why is the "why" of christianity something I should put above other religions or ideologies. 25 minutes ago, Still Alive said: Regarding the invisible Ferrari, because it is dealing with the supernatural realm, it is based on faith. But not BLIND faith. It is based on faith in the same way that your belief that you will receive your tax refund is based on faith. Science ( our best method by far at finding the truth) points against any supernaturalism. We dont have proof for the supernatural. We dont have proof, no its worse. The proof that we have shows that we are wrong about any claims made in religious texts. Not accepting evolution for example, is as bad as rejecting that the earth is round. How is it anything but blind faith? 25 minutes ago, Still Alive said: FWIW, I have four bona fide miracles in my life, two of them miraculous healings after prayer. And that doesn't include his involvement in my life on a daily basis. If you are interested in REALLY getting into the weeds on this, a forum like this will not do it. I recommend the links I provided as a good starting point after you avail yourself to Prayer regarding the Lord giving you wisdom on this issue. And the prayer requires faith. If you don't think you have it, appeal to the faith of Jesus. It is what resulted in one of our medical miracles. Can I ask you why you had a mirracle healing and not other people? For example people like me? We have to admit that mirracle healings have no proof and are just personal experience. Personal experiences have no value. Ill look through the links maybe it will clear some things up Edited May 9, 2019 by Leyla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still Alive Posted May 9, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,024 Content Per Day: 1.34 Reputation: 1,224 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/05/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted May 9, 2019 20 minutes ago, Leyla said: I could take the book "Mein Kampf" and choose it as my "why". Why is the "why" of christianity something I should put above other religions or ideologies. You just jumped back to the starting point. I refer you to the thread and the links provided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still Alive Posted May 9, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,024 Content Per Day: 1.34 Reputation: 1,224 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/05/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted May 9, 2019 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Leyla said: Science ( our best method by far at finding the truth) points against any supernaturalism. We dont have proof for the supernatural. We dont have proof, no its worse. The proof that we have shows that we are wrong about any claims made in religious texts. Not accepting evolution for example, is as bad as rejecting that the earth is round. How is it anything but blind faith? Can I ask you why you had a mirracle healing and not other people? For example people like me? We have to admit that mirracle healings have no proof and are just personal experience. Personal experiences have no value. Ill look through the links maybe it will clear some things up Science is not about truth. Science is about facts. “Archaeology is the search for fact… not truth. If it’s truth you’re looking for, Dr. Tyree’s philosophy class is right down the hall.”–Indiana Jones Regarding your question, you'll have to take it up with God. And if personal experiences have no value to you, I suppose we are done here. Invoking Matthew 7:6 Edited May 9, 2019 by Still Alive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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