Diaste Posted April 2, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,624 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 2, 2019 5 hours ago, missmuffet said: Pre wrath has weaknesses so no I do not think it is correct. One weakness of the pre-wrath rapture position is its presumption that the “elect” mentioned in Matthew 24:22, 31 are church-age saints. These saints could just as easily be individuals saved during the seven-year tribulation; in fact, Jesus tells those who flee the antichrist’s persecution to pray that their flight does not occur “on the Sabbath” (verse 20). Since the church is not under the Mosaic law and does not keep the Sabbath, Jesus’ words cannot be directed to the church. Yes, i suppose the elect could be as the author says but it's not a fact based argument to say "could just as easily be". It's a game that's played with rhetoric and has nothing to do with truth. Fact is only one gathering is depicted in all of scripture satisfying all the questions one would normally ask: Who? What? Where? Why? And of course, 'when' and that's Matt 24. All other rapture verses either omit timing altogether or have the common element of a trump placing them all under the umbrella of Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 17 and 21. 5 hours ago, missmuffet said: Another flaw in the pre-wrath rapture theory is its teaching that the first seal judgments are not the wrath of God. Scripture shows that it is the Lamb who opens the seals (Revelation 5:5; 6:1). No other man is found worthy to open them (5:3-4). It would seem, then, these are not man’s judgments, but God’s. The tribulation begins when Jesus opens the first seal, and from that point on, the wrath of God is meted out on a sinful world. Well since the seals are never called judgements and are never likened to wrath, except the 6th seal, with Rev 6 specifically stating wrath begins at the 6th seal, it's not a flaw; it's reality that one should not conflate wrath with any other seal than the one specifically connected to wrath, that is the 6th seal only. No where does scripture record 'tribulation' begins at a seal. This statement, "The tribulation begins when Jesus opens the first seal, and from that point on, the wrath of God is meted out on a sinful world." equates 'tribulation' and 'wrath' in a way scripture never does. The only time any period of 'tribulation' is mentioned is by Jesus when he says 'great tribulation' which only occurs after the A of D. And 'wrath' is only mentioned at the 6th seal as commencing when Jesus returns. Equating 'wrath' and 'tribulation' is the major tenet of pretrib, and it's biggest flaw. 5 hours ago, missmuffet said: A final weakness of the pre-wrath rapture view is shared by the other theories: viz., the Bible does not give an explicit time line concerning future events. Scripture does not expressly teach one view over another, and that is why we have diversity of opinion concerning the end times and some variety on how the related prophecies should be harmonized. Except for the pre-trib view, correct? So the author is astute enough to point out the flaws in other doctrine but equivocates? Does this uncertainty apply to pre-trib also? Seems to me if scripture does not give specific timing then every view can be correct, then no flaws would exist in any of the doctrines concerning timing, which is not possible. Scripture does give specific timing however. "At the last trump" "Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, " So yes, scripture, Jesus the Lord, is specific, very much so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted April 2, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,624 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 2, 2019 2 hours ago, iamlamad said: I usually don't agree with you on much, but we are in agreement here: NO ONE KNOWS! If Jesus don't know, how could anyone else think they know? It is not going to happen until the Father turns to the Son and says, GO GET MY CHURCH! IT IS TIME! It's just the day and hour we cannot know. "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." (in other passages as well). We can't know if it's Tuesday at noon or Friday at 6 pm. We can know in relation to other events as depicted in 2 Thess 2, Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 17 and 21. If it is true that no one can know, how is it you are so sure it's a pre-trib or whatever other timing of which you have deep conviction? A of D, GT, 2nd coming, gathering, in that order and none other. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted April 2, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted April 2, 2019 56 minutes ago, Diaste said: I don't disagree on any particular point. Indeed we must be ready as Peter said, "Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?" - 2 Peter 3 An important point however is the timing of the 2nd coming. "Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God," Peter says. It seems to me we cannot really be looking if we do not try to discern the timing and the immediately preceding signs. I'm convinced this can be determined with great accuracy as much is written about the timing: Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, 1 Thess, 2 Thess, 1 Cor, Rev 6, etc. The Lord wants us to know or He would have spoken so much about it, nor had those words recorded and preserved. I think it obvious there is one correct view of the timing of the 2nd coming; Jesus certainly isn't coming back multiple times to satisfy pet doctrines of His servants; and He recorded this in scripture. "What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?" Certainly His answer satisfied the question. Perhaps you can unpack what you mean by the second coming of Christ for me, as I was speaking of the rapture at the last trumpet, not when Jesus returns with the heavenly host to begin the millennium. Do you think this is done at the same time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted April 2, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.09 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 2, 2019 3 hours ago, Diaste said: It's just the day and hour we cannot know. "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." (in other passages as well). We can't know if it's Tuesday at noon or Friday at 6 pm. We can know in relation to other events as depicted in 2 Thess 2, Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 17 and 21. If it is true that no one can know, how is it you are so sure it's a pre-trib or whatever other timing of which you have deep conviction? A of D, GT, 2nd coming, gathering, in that order and none other. That is a simple question with a simple answer: comparing Paul and what he wrote about the timing of the rapture, with John in Revelation it is very clear that the rapture comes before wrath, and the wrath comes even before the 70th week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted April 2, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted April 2, 2019 13 hours ago, Diaste said: A of D, GT, 2nd coming, gathering, in that order and none other. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zemke Posted April 2, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,028 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 451 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/24/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted April 2, 2019 14 hours ago, Diaste said: Interesting. I do believe I mostly agree except for the import of 'when'. Not only is there misinformation about 'when' but diverse thought striving against the Word and each other. How are we to know the 'times and the seasons' if we do not understand the conclusion of 'when'? Many have literally said Jesus could have come at any time from the Ascension to the present. They would look in vain for two millennia when the truth was written by 95 AD. If narrowed down to a particular window the signs would have meaning where the broad concept of wars and rumors of wars has none without discerning proximity. Even in the space of 7 years time from the pre-trib view to the pre-wrath view there are terrible consequences for missing the signs; unprepared to engage the enemy in spiritual battle perhaps leading to the failure to endure as we are called to do. If we know at least the general time the signs have profound meaning and cannot be mistaken. In the pretrib view everything is a 'time and season' where if we can see the truth of events that must occur first we are led in truth and faith, no matter the circumstance. In my opinion, anyway. 4 I don't think I've ever been clear on what I mean by timing. It seems obvious the events spoken of by Jesus in Matth. 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 have a connection to the seals. So when it comes to when I see biblically the resurrection/rescue as spoken of by Daniel happening it's between the sixth and seventh seal. But it's the timing within the occurring of all those events and others within Revelation that I find more secondary to the reality of those events and how we can see current events leading up to it all. I've heard it explained in the manner of an invasion. The Lord is coming and we are like the commandos dropped behind enemy lines before the major onslaught. We have work to do but there will come a time when no man can work. "Work while it is the day, night comes when no man can work." He comes like a thief in the night. The world will become progressively darker spiritually even though at times seeming to get better, birth pangs, earth tremors. Periods of time in between that are calm. Faithfulness to our first love is vastly important to even grasp the events as they occur. So yes it's important to know the scriptures but figuring out the timing of events like for instance what's up next, will not be so clear or easy without faithfulness. We don't know the day or hour but we know the season, night. There will come a time when we will know He is coming, just as the virgins did. A cry came out at midnight, they were not sure how much longer but they knew He was coming. "When you see these things begin to happen then look up, you're redemption draws nigh." Luke 21. There's so much that connects and it's always best to pray and read. Message boards when it comes to these things many times makes more of a mess and argument and when I see the arguments they are always timing issues, this happens when that happens and when it happens those things will happen and while biblical understanding of these events will increase as the day approaches and being in the scriptures is important, the daily work knowing he is coming should be a bitterness in our bellies. I guess what I'm trying to say is the application in our walks needs to be more than figuring everything out. Being faithful will lead to understanding. That day of understanding will come as we remain faithful. Jesus warned of deception more than anything else. Discernment is very important. The disciples didn't know the true character of Judas until it was revealed to them. We are told the son of perdition will be revealed. We may at that time have an idea but chances are most of us will be surprised. If we can't see through some of the obvious deceivers today and many can't then look out. Trust only the Lord. The scriptures are always important and the illumination of the Holy Spirit vital. Oil in the lamps. It's getting darker and about these things, the Bible has much to say. The sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before that great and glorious day of the Lord shall come. Peter in Acts 2 We will know He is coming if we are alive at that time, the day or hour no, but hold on the rescue is coming. Faithfulness, not timing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted April 2, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,624 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 2, 2019 18 hours ago, OneLight said: Perhaps you can unpack what you mean by the second coming of Christ for me, as I was speaking of the rapture at the last trumpet, not when Jesus returns with the heavenly host to begin the millennium. Do you think this is done at the same time? Certainly. The signs precede the appearance, Jesus appears, trumpet sounds, the angels gather the elect, wrath begins. Matt 24 is detailed and concise on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted April 2, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted April 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, Diaste said: Certainly. The signs precede the appearance, Jesus appears, trumpet sounds, the angels gather the elect, wrath begins. Matt 24 is detailed and concise on this. So, where do you place the rapture and do you think the rapture and the second coming are the same event? You didn't answer that question and I don't want to assume you did with your reply as some think Jesus will appear twice, once for the rapture and the other at His second coming, bringing in the millennium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted April 2, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,624 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 2, 2019 1 minute ago, OneLight said: So, where do you place the rapture and do you think the rapture and the second coming are the same event? You didn't answer that question and I don't want to assume you did with your reply as some think Jesus will appear twice, once for the rapture and the other at His second coming, bringing in the millennium. Placing the rapture... Well, there isn't one. I only see a gathering of the elect, and 'us to Him'. Maybe its pedantic but 'rapture' is a misnomer. The word does not appear in scripture and is derived from Latin. The gathering of the elect, and the gathering of us to Him are what I see. This would come after the rebellion and revealing, and after but associated very near in time and space to the sign of His appearance, His appearance, the trump, the shout and the charge to the angels. So no, the Lord does not appear twice. Once more, forever. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted April 2, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted April 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Diaste said: Placing the rapture... Well, there isn't one. I only see a gathering of the elect, and 'us to Him'. Maybe its pedantic but 'rapture' is a misnomer. The word does not appear in scripture and is derived from Latin. The gathering of the elect, and the gathering of us to Him are what I see. This would come after the rebellion and revealing, and after but associated very near in time and space to the sign of His appearance, His appearance, the trump, the shout and the charge to the angels. So no, the Lord does not appear twice. Once more, forever. Ah, I see. You are correct, rapture does not appear in the bible, αρπαγησομεθα does, which is translated to harpagEsometha, which means we shall be-being snatched. So that we can understand it in our language, it was then translated to harpazo, which also means to snatch out or to seize. We read in scripture as being caught up. May I ask why you are even in this thread if you don't believe in any form of rapture? Just curious. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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