Is Pre Wrath the Correct Position?

[OneLight]

2 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hello OneLight,

                          You may remember that the altar is not "inside" where God's presence is fount in the earthly pattern we have. Certainly there is no altar in the heavenly temple either. No more sacrifices. So they themselves are not "in". So this represents their state awaiting resurrection. I could say more about that if you like. It may seem to be splitting hairs, but "given" also is used to impart the idea of granted, assigned etc. and therefore doesn't strictly infer that they wear them at that time to signify they are resurrected. That would be impossible according to Heb 11:40- God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Nope, we ALL get resurrected at the same time. 

The other Rev. 15 verse you posted is not chronological, it is a separate vision looking forward. The book of Revelation is not strictly linear, but a a series of visions, in some places they change from one sentence to the next. Chapters did not exist when it was penned. 

Then in Rev, 7 it is self explanatory. Those people went through the tribulation. Please see Rev 20:4. Same group, resisted the mark etc. There will be those who remain right up to the end. So, yet another rapture/resurrection would be needed. Unless there is some unlisted one of each, its too many.

 

Shalom Uriah,

I never said there was an alter in the temple, but before the throne of God.  I don't believe anyone has yet claimed that the people who are caught up to be with the Lord in the clouds ended up in the temple of the tabernacle.  It seems you hinted that is what people meant when you mentioned the temple being closed while the bowls are poured out.

[Uriah]

14 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Shalom Uriah,

I never said there was an alter in the temple, but before the throne of God.  I don't believe anyone has yet claimed that the people who are caught up to be with the Lord in the clouds ended up in the temple of the tabernacle.  It seems you hinted that is what people meant when you mentioned the temple being closed while the bowls are poured out.

Hello OneLight.

             You cited from Rev 7  where it also says,  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.  So I assumed that is what you meant because of how many times people have added in a reference to Paul saying, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." But even that has an explanation that doesn't have people presently, "walking the streets of gold." 

And yes, because of Rev 15:8 people have to somehow either have saints chased out of the temple for a while or declare a temporary stoppage-which would require yet another rapture/resurrection.    

[OneLight]

4 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hello OneLight.

             You cited from Rev 7  where it also says,  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.  So I assumed that is what you meant because of how many times people have added in a reference to Paul saying, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." But even that has an explanation that doesn't have people presently, "walking the streets of gold." 

Then please explain how those who have come out of the tribulation are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple, yet have not been absent, or seperated from the body and became present with the Lord if it were not true.  Where is their delay?

4 hours ago, Uriah said:

And yes, because of Rev 15:8 people have to somehow either have saints chased out of the temple for a while or declare a temporary stoppage-which would require yet another rapture/resurrection.    

Why be so dramatic?  Nowhere in scripture does it say anyone is chased out of the temple.  Neither does it suggest that because God is alone int he temple during the pouring of the bowls that it eliminates anything He has done beforehand.  It seems that in order for this to work for you, one must be raptures or resurrected again.  Why is that?  All God has to do is close His temple while the bowls are poured out.  The rest of Heaven remains the same.

[Uriah]

46 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Then please explain how those who have come out of the tribulation are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple, yet have not been absent, or seperated from the body and became present with the Lord if it were not true.  Where is their delay?

Why be so dramatic?  Nowhere in scripture does it say anyone is chased out of the temple.  Neither does it suggest that because God is alone int he temple during the pouring of the bowls that it eliminates anything He has done beforehand.  It seems that in order for this to work for you, one must be raptures or resurrected again.  Why is that?  All God has to do is close His temple while the bowls are poured out.  The rest of Heaven remains the same.

Hi OneLight,

                   I had assumed you would get to this question, one that most don't consider. Their delay? There is no delay for them, only for us. Yet as I have stated elsewhere, (Heb 11:40) "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." This truly means that God's people, O.T./N.T, are resurrected at the same time. When a believer dies he goes to be with the Lord, but doesn't get there until he has a new body, resurrected from the grave. Simply put, to that believer it sill seem as only a second has elapsed and he will be meeting us with the Lord in the air. To us, a great deal of time could have passed. A sort of time travel at the point of death. John 5:34- Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Isaiah 57:15- "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place...." Eternity includes time of course. And by entering that realm at death there is no sensation of the passing of time, a constant state of  NOW.  This why those believers who have passed away will all come together -with us- on that Day.

 

Didn't try to be dramatic, didn't think I was, but, OK. Yet I have commonly come across this chasing out thing. It originated with Edershiem I think. The rest of heaven remains the same but I thought the only place we see people in heaven is with the Lord in His temple. Even so, for pre wrath to work, there would have to nobody saved afterward, but I believe God's people will be here to the end. Those in Rev 7 apparently subjected to the heat noted in one of the vials.

 

Of course if the pre wrath is the wrath on the last day it works out the same as post trib. But the plagues shown are not directed at the saints, just like the people of God in Egypt. He protected them.  If you go through the vials one at a time you will see where they are directed. They match the trumpets well enough. 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2019 by Uriah

[Diaste]

23 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hello Diaste,

                   I do not believe the pre wrath position is the correct one. It has all of the same problems as pre trib, just pushed back a bit further. Rev 15:8- And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. So, nobody gets in until the end.

This alone makes it a post trib  rapture. pre trib and pre wrath require extra raptures/resurrections than what are shown in scripture. Consider Rev 19:7&8- Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

It is only at this time when the bride/Church is given her new attire, not 7 or 3.5 yrs earlier. I cannot suppose she was able to enter in without the proper attire. (or naked) Here she is having just received the white attire (changed in an instant) .......IN THE AIR!!!! Rev 19:1- And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

So there they are, in the sky as their redeemer comes to rescue them on a white horse. He then destroys His enemies with the armies of heaven (angels). This is happening while the a/c and false prophet are alive...at the end!

Well of course it's post trib gathering; but that is also pre-wrath. As the GT ends when our Lord Jesus returns, wrath begins, we are redeemed off the earth and out of GT, between the ending of one and the beginning of the other.

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 

For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.  If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened.

At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible.  See, I have told you in advance.

So if they tell you, ‘There He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and

they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

We know from Rev 6 that the same signs as depicted in Matt 24 immediately precede the wrath of God and of the Lamb. Since we are not destined to wrath but are gathered 'after the tribulation of those days' then the gathering of the elect is post-trib/pre-wrath.

                                                                           

 

 

                                                                                                                                         

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2019 by Diaste

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, Uriah said:

 The rest of heaven remains the same but I thought the only place we see people in heaven is with the Lord in His temple.

 

 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues,

stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

 

I would not be convinced that the Throne and the Temple are synonymous. Does it have to make sense that the Throne is in the Temple? No. It could be, but unless there is evidence the Throne of God is in the Temple of God then it's just an assumption. From this passage above no such evidence exists. If you have a passage that places the Throne in the Temple or the Temple built around the Throne please post it.

 

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. And I saw as it were

a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name,

stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

"

I suppose we could debate whether the victors are men or not and if not then "and no man was able to enter into the temple" would not apply but that's a terrible argument.

Fact is from Rev 15 the victors are not in the Temple, they are on the sea of glass. They can't be in the Temple as it was just opened "after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:" and angels came out.

From Rev 15 we don't even know if God is in the Temple or not; all we know is, "the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power". This doesn't necessarily require that God is in the Temple and from the fact the Temple was just opened and the victors are on the sea of glass outside the Temple, there is proof here that the victors are in heaven from some unspecified time before this scene and before wrath begins, and are not inside the Temple at all  and were not in the Temple previously. Now, "and serve him day and night in his temple" doesn't mean there isn't some space/time moment where "serve him day and night in his temple" isn't suspended for a specific reason. Maybe the serving in the Temple day and night has not yet begun; something has to give here as we cannot have both. In my mind there would be no need to make the statement "and no man was able to enter into the temple," if these men were not either coming and going from the Temple or at least had the ability to enter and leave the Temple, therefore some men must be in heaven to be barred from entering the Temple. The statement alone more than suggests men are indeed in heaven at this point.

In any case the victors are clearly in heaven, and the Temple is a building in heaven that is neither heaven proper nor the throne room, or throne area, or court, or whatever; and pre-wrath/post-trib is viable and one and the same.

10 hours ago, Uriah said:

Even so, for pre wrath to work, there would have to nobody saved afterward,

So there is no way that someone could be saved after? Do you mean that no one could be taken to heaven afterward? Being saved by the blood is not the same as taking part in the 1st resurrection. One could be saved afterward but then live to populate the kingdom, or die then be resurrected at the 2nd resurrection some 1000 years hence.

[OneLight]

12 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi OneLight,

                   I had assumed you would get to this question, one that most don't consider. Their delay? There is no delay for them, only for us. Yet as I have stated elsewhere, (Heb 11:40) "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."  This truly means that God's people, O.T./N.T, are resurrected at the same time. When a believer dies he goes to be with the Lord, but doesn't get there until he has a new body, resurrected from the grave. Simply put, to that believer it sill seem as only a second has elapsed and he will be meeting us with the Lord in the air. To us, a great deal of time could have passed. A sort of time travel at the point of death. John 5:34- Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Isaiah 57:15- "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place...." Eternity includes time of course. And by entering that realm at death there is no sensation of the passing of time, a constant state of  NOW.  This why those believers who have passed away will all come together -with us- on that Day.

 

Didn't try to be dramatic, didn't think I was, but, OK. Yet I have commonly come across this chasing out thing. It originated with Edershiem I think. The rest of heaven remains the same but I thought the only place we see people in heaven is with the Lord in His temple. Even so, for pre wrath to work, there would have to nobody saved afterward, but I believe God's people will be here to the end. Those in Rev 7 apparently subjected to the heat noted in one of the vials.

 

Of course if the pre wrath is the wrath on the last day it works out the same as post trib. But the plagues shown are not directed at the saints, just like the people of God in Egypt. He protected them.  If you go through the vials one at a time you will see where they are directed. They match the trumpets well enough. 

 

 

For some reason, your post above won't split, so I will answer the best I can.

So, you do not believe that once you die your spirit returns to God while we wait for a resurrected body? Do you then believe in soul sleep?  Where do you read that those that come out of the great tribulation are any different than anyone else when it comes to being with the Lord, besides what they will be doing?

You see, I do believe the dead in Christ will raise first, then those who are alive and remain will be caught up.  What I don't see is any difference in the faith, just the reason for dying, so in order to believe those who came out of the Great Tribulation are different holds no weight to me.  However, they will be the ones who will reign with the Lord for one thousand years as spoken in Revelation 20:4-6. 

Are you suggesting that the dead in Christ will not raise until after the thousand year reign?  Are you also suggesting that believers will not live again until after the thousand year reign and take part int eh great white throne judgment?  I ask because all you are doing is putting a verse here and a verse there.

For me, I believe the time we are on earth, before being caught up, we will be protected from anything the world goes through, as you do.  You may be surprised at how much we do have in common when it comes to eschatology, while the major difference is that you do not believe those who die spirits go to be with the Lord waiting for their resurrected bodies, waiting in spirit form.  You think they just lay in the grave in the NOW, as you put it.  I can't see it that way as those who are spoken of in heaven as being under the alter are real and I cannot place the last trumpet calling us to be caught up to be with the Lord at the end of the thousand year reign.

Then again, as I have said elsewhere, all we are doing is talking about our theories derived from prophecy.  We will not know the truth until it happens.

Edited April 6, 2019 by OneLight
Posted too quickly - had to finish my thoughts

[Uriah]

11 minutes ago, OneLight said:

For some reason, your post above won't split, so I will answer the best I can.

So, you do not believe that once you die your spirit returns to God while we wait for a resurrected body? Do you then believe in soul sleep?  Where do you read that those that come out of the great tribulation are any different than anyone else when it comes to being with the Lord, besides what they will be doing?

You see, I do believe the dead in Christ will raise first, then those who are alive and remain will be caught up.  What I don't see is any difference in the faith, just the reason for dying, so in order to believe those who came out of the Great Tribulation are different holds no weight to me.  However, they will be the ones who will reign with the Lord for one thousand years as spoken in Revelation 20:4-6. 

Are you suggesting that the dead in Christ will not raise until after the thousand year reign?  Are you also suggesting that believers will not live again until after the thousand year reign and take part int eh great white throne judgment?  I ask because all you are doing is putting a verse here and a verse there.

For me, I believe the time we are on earth, before being caught up, we will be protected from anything the world goes through, as you do.  You may be surprised at how much we do have in common when it comes to eschatology, while the major difference is that you do not believe those who die spirits go to be with the Lord waiting for their resurrected bodies, waiting in spirit form.  You think they just lay in the grave in the NOW, as you put it.  I can't see it that way as those who are spoken of in heaven as being under the alter are real and I cannot place the last trumpet calling us to be caught up to be with the Lord at the end of the thousand year reign.

Then again, as I have said elsewhere, all we are doing is talking about our theories derived from prophecy.  We will not know the truth until it happens.

Hi OneLight,

                    Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough. I absolutely believe our spirit returns to God. Restating, when a believer dies his spirit returns to God and pass through time -from our perspective. For example, someone who died a hundred years ago will be transported to meet Him in the air having immediately receiving a new body <FROM HIS PERSPECTIVE AND EXPERIENCE> while to us he has been gone for a hundred years. He passes from death to life in a moment (to him). But he will not "enter" (Matt 25:21 & 23) until the rest of us do as well. Again see Heb:11:40.

Rev 16:17- And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Is 6:1- In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

Ps 11:4- The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.

So for people to be saved by believing the one and only true Gospel that we believe and NOT be afforded the same promises that are IN the Gospel, it is another gospel.

[Uriah]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

 

 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues,

stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

 

I would not be convinced that the Throne and the Temple are synonymous. Does it have to make sense that the Throne is in the Temple? No. It could be, but unless there is evidence the Throne of God is in the Temple of God then it's just an assumption. From this passage above no such evidence exists. If you have a passage that places the Throne in the Temple or the Temple built around the Throne please post it.

 

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. And I saw as it were

a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name,

stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

"

I suppose we could debate whether the victors are men or not and if not then "and no man was able to enter into the temple" would not apply but that's a terrible argument.

Fact is from Rev 15 the victors are not in the Temple, they are on the sea of glass. They can't be in the Temple as it was just opened "after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:" and angels came out.

From Rev 15 we don't even know if God is in the Temple or not; all we know is, "the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power". This doesn't necessarily require that God is in the Temple and from the fact the Temple was just opened and the victors are on the sea of glass outside the Temple, there is proof here that the victors are in heaven from some unspecified time before this scene and before wrath begins, and are not inside the Temple at all  and were not in the Temple previously. Now, "and serve him day and night in his temple" doesn't mean there isn't some space/time moment where "serve him day and night in his temple" isn't suspended for a specific reason. Maybe the serving in the Temple day and night has not yet begun; something has to give here as we cannot have both. In my mind there would be no need to make the statement "and no man was able to enter into the temple," if these men were not either coming and going from the Temple or at least had the ability to enter and leave the Temple, therefore some men must be in heaven to be barred from entering the Temple. The statement alone more than suggests men are indeed in heaven at this point.

In any case the victors are clearly in heaven, and the Temple is a building in heaven that is neither heaven proper nor the throne room, or throne area, or court, or whatever; and pre-wrath/post-trib is viable and one and the same.

So there is no way that someone could be saved after? Do you mean that no one could be taken to heaven afterward? Being saved by the blood is not the same as taking part in the 1st resurrection. One could be saved afterward but then live to populate the kingdom, or die then be resurrected at the 2nd resurrection some 1000 years hence.

My apologies Diaste, 

Somehow in my haste I was looking my your post and replied to OneLight. (but I think it fits too, I will re-visit it shortly. so here is what I said about these things:

  Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough. I absolutely believe our spirit returns to God. Restating, when a believer dies his spirit returns to God and pass through time -from our perspective. For example, someone who died a hundred years ago will be transported to meet Him in the air having immediately receiving a new body <FROM HIS PERSPECTIVE AND EXPERIENCE> while to us he has been gone for a hundred years. He passes from death to life in a moment (to him). But he will not "enter" (Matt 25:21 & 23) until the rest of us do as well. Again see Heb:11:40.

Rev 16:17- And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Is 6:1- In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

Ps 11:4- The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.

So for people to be saved by believing the one and only true Gospel that we believe and NOT be afforded the same promises that are IN the Gospel, it is another gospel.

[Uriah]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Well of course it's post trib gathering; but that is also pre-wrath. As the GT ends when our Lord Jesus returns, wrath begins, we are redeemed off the earth and out of GT, between the ending of one and the beginning of the other.

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 

For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.  If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened.

At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible.  See, I have told you in advance.

So if they tell you, ‘There He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and

they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

We know from Rev 6 that the same signs as depicted in Matt 24 immediately precede the wrath of God and of the Lamb. Since we are not destined to wrath but are gathered 'after the tribulation of those days' then the gathering of the elect is post-trib/pre-wrath.

                                                                           

 

 

                                                                                                                                         

 

 

 

Diaste,

 As I see it, believers are here in the entire tribulation. In Rev 16 Jesus says He is coming like a thief (hasn't come yet) on the very brink of Armageddon!

The wrath we are not appointed to is that of the judgment.