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Is Pre Wrath the Correct Position?


Diaste

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There cannot exist multiple correct understandings of the 2nd Coming and the Gathering. 

Which is the correct understanding?

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16 minutes ago, Diaste said:

There cannot exist multiple correct understandings of the 2nd Coming and the Gathering. 

Which is the correct understanding?

The one that fits the sum of the word. "The sum of thy word is truth." Daniel is told to seal these things up until the time of the end and as we approach that day our understanding will increase. Apocolypsis is revealing hence Revelation, the closer to an object the clearer it becomes. I've heard pre-wrath referred to as intra-seal by those who don't hold to some of the beliefs of pre-wrath but the placement scripturally of the time of darkness, the night, correlating with the resurrection/rescue of believers being between the sixth and seventh seal is agreed upon. The more a believer follows the scriptural patterns and references, types and shadows this view does seem to fall more comfortably with the whole of the word. 

I was raised dispensational and it took prayer and some effort to get beyond approaching the text with a preconceived notion of what the scriptures say prophetically. But the scriptures do show us the very plain understanding of His coming. It's just to simple for some of us to believe and is disturbing to those of us who for our whole lives have read things differently. I know, I went thru it. 

But the timing isn't as important as understanding the seasons and being about the Fathers business. I notice so much of prophecy discussions are consumed by timing and timing placement when things like Lot calling the radical homosexuals brothers and him trying to shut the door on his own not working and the faithfulness of Rahab up until that day hanging a scarlet cord out her window. Personally, I have found more understanding in scripture about the time of the end concerning believers after seeing the pre-wrath perspective, or inta-seal, whichever is preferred. 

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We are told when once in scripture, and that is at the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52. 

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I, like many others, have tried for years to map out an approximate timeline by discovering "certain hidden clues" that only needed to be found in scripture, but never came up with one that could satisfy with any form of confidence.  A lot of people spend many many years trying to unlock those "hidden clues" by continuing to cross reference scripture and past together timelines that satisfy them, but never fully convinced in their heart when deeply questioned, always finding certain questions themselves, when they are honest. Now, I just point to 1 Corinthians 15:58 and try to figure out what is meant by the last trumpet. 

Some say it will be the last trumpet of the Feast of Trumpets, which can be anytime in mid September to early October, depending on the year. 

Some say it is at the 7th Trumpet of Revelation since that is the last trumpet blown in Revelation where scripture tells us in Revelation 11:15 that the kingdoms of the world have become the kingdoms of the Lord:

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

Others say that the trumpet is a commandment of God, but that one fell away fast as there are many more commandments of God after the rapture happens.

Remember, the timing, if one feels they have discovered what has evaded many throughout the years, has to flow with all of scripture, not just a few verses and passages pulled out of scripture to support their eschatology theology.

In all honesty, the best statement of when the rapture will occur is to always be ready as we are told in Mark 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

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Pre wrath has weaknesses so no I do not think it is correct. 

One weakness of the pre-wrath rapture position is its presumption that the “elect” mentioned in Matthew 24:22, 31 are church-age saints. These saints could just as easily be individuals saved during the seven-year tribulation; in fact, Jesus tells those who flee the antichrist’s persecution to pray that their flight does not occur “on the Sabbath” (verse 20). Since the church is not under the Mosaic law and does not keep the Sabbath, Jesus’ words cannot be directed to the church.

Another flaw in the pre-wrath rapture theory is its teaching that the first seal judgments are not the wrath of God. Scripture shows that it is the Lamb who opens the seals (Revelation 5:5; 6:1). No other man is found worthy to open them (5:3-4). It would seem, then, these are not man’s judgments, but God’s. The tribulation begins when Jesus opens the first seal, and from that point on, the wrath of God is meted out on a sinful world.

A final weakness of the pre-wrath rapture view is shared by the other theories: viz., the Bible does not give an explicit time line concerning future events. Scripture does not expressly teach one view over another, and that is why we have diversity of opinion concerning the end times and some variety on how the related prophecies should be harmonized.
https://www.gotquestions.org/pre-wrath-rapture.html

Edited by missmuffet
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Yes. Pre-Wrath is the correct understanding. It is the only one that fulfills all of the prophecies without having to go through contortion acts to make things fit.

For anyone looking for a relatively short portrayal of the sequence of events in the End Times, I suggest this blog post:

 

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7 hours ago, Diaste said:

There cannot exist multiple correct understandings of the 2nd Coming and the Gathering. 

Which is the correct understanding?

This is one thing you have written that I can agree with 100%. Only one understand of the timing of the rapture can be correct.

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6 hours ago, OneLight said:

We are told when once in scripture, and that is at the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52. 

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I, like many others, have tried for years to map out an approximate timeline by discovering "certain hidden clues" that only needed to be found in scripture, but never came up with one that could satisfy with any form of confidence.  A lot of people spend many many years trying to unlock those "hidden clues" by continuing to cross reference scripture and past together timelines that satisfy them, but never fully convinced in their heart when deeply questioned, always finding certain questions themselves, when they are honest. Now, I just point to 1 Corinthians 15:58 and try to figure out what is meant by the last trumpet. 

Some say it will be the last trumpet of the Feast of Trumpets, which can be anytime in mid September to early October, depending on the year. 

Some say it is at the 7th Trumpet of Revelation since that is the last trumpet blown in Revelation where scripture tells us in Revelation 11:15 that the kingdoms of the world have become the kingdoms of the Lord:

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

Others say that the trumpet is a commandment of God, but that one fell away fast as there are many more commandments of God after the rapture happens.

Remember, the timing, if one feels they have discovered what has evaded many throughout the years, has to flow with all of scripture, not just a few verses and passages pulled out of scripture to support their eschatology theology.

In all honesty, the best statement of when the rapture will occur is to always be ready as we are told in Mark 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

I usually don't agree with you on much, but we are in agreement here: NO ONE KNOWS!  If Jesus don't know, how could anyone else think they know? It is not going to happen until the Father turns to the Son and says, GO GET MY CHURCH! IT IS TIME!

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Both posttrib and prewrath have to rearrange Revelation to make their theory fit. But prewrath must rearrange the entire book - a DRASTIC rearranging to make their theory fit - and it is all because Rosenthal and Van Kampen did not realize that the cosmic signs will be seen TWICE more: first as a sign for the coming Day of the Lord, then again 7 years later as the sign for His coming.  The sign of the DAY will be with a blood moon, and the sign for His coming will be total darkness.

So they conceived this crazy idea that the days of great tribulation come first, then the sign, at the 6th seal, and then His coming.  So they force the days of GT into the first 5 seals - which John shows us are church age events. The force the 6th seal to just before chapter 19, or chapter 19 right after the 6th seal. 

ANY such rearranging is proof positive that theory is wrong. The right theory will not require ANY rearranging of Revelation to make it fit. It will be a theory created FROM Revelation's chronology. 

WHAT theory then requires no modifications of Revelation? Let's see:

Paul's rapture just before the start of THE DAY, and His wrath - just a moment before the 6th seal. Then judgment starts immediately after the rapture in the form of Paul's sudden destruction - which will be the 6th seal earthquake. 

Then, perhaps 10 days later (the 10 days of awe) the 7th seal will be opened to start the 70th week.  The rapture then is both prewrath and pretrib.

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8 hours ago, Zemke said:

The one that fits the sum of the word. "The sum of thy word is truth." Daniel is told to seal these things up until the time of the end and as we approach that day our understanding will increase. Apocolypsis is revealing hence Revelation, the closer to an object the clearer it becomes. I've heard pre-wrath referred to as intra-seal by those who don't hold to some of the beliefs of pre-wrath but the placement scripturally of the time of darkness, the night, correlating with the resurrection/rescue of believers being between the sixth and seventh seal is agreed upon. The more a believer follows the scriptural patterns and references, types and shadows this view does seem to fall more comfortably with the whole of the word. 

I was raised dispensational and it took prayer and some effort to get beyond approaching the text with a preconceived notion of what the scriptures say prophetically. But the scriptures do show us the very plain understanding of His coming. It's just to simple for some of us to believe and is disturbing to those of us who for our whole lives have read things differently. I know, I went thru it. 

But the timing isn't as important as understanding the seasons and being about the Fathers business. I notice so much of prophecy discussions are consumed by timing and timing placement when things like Lot calling the radical homosexuals brothers and him trying to shut the door on his own not working and the faithfulness of Rahab up until that day hanging a scarlet cord out her window. Personally, I have found more understanding in scripture about the time of the end concerning believers after seeing the pre-wrath perspective, or inta-seal, whichever is preferred. 

Interesting. I do believe I mostly agree except for the import of 'when'. Not only is there misinformation about 'when' but diverse thought striving against the Word and each other. How are we to know the 'times and the seasons' if we do not understand the conclusion of 'when'? 

Many have literally said Jesus could have come at any time from the Ascension to the present. They would look in vain for two millennia when the truth was written by 95 AD. If narrowed down to a particular window the signs would have meaning where the broad concept of wars and rumors of wars has none without discerning proximity.

Even in the space of 7 years time from the pre-trib view to the pre-wrath view there are terrible consequences for missing the signs; unprepared to engage the enemy in spiritual battle perhaps leading to the failure to endure as we are called to do.

If we know at least the general time the signs have profound meaning and cannot be mistaken. In the pretrib view everything is a 'time and season' where if we can see the truth of events that must occur first we are led in truth and faith, no matter the circumstance. In my opinion, anyway.

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9 hours ago, OneLight said:

We are told when once in scripture, and that is at the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52. 

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I, like many others, have tried for years to map out an approximate timeline by discovering "certain hidden clues" that only needed to be found in scripture, but never came up with one that could satisfy with any form of confidence.  A lot of people spend many many years trying to unlock those "hidden clues" by continuing to cross reference scripture and past together timelines that satisfy them, but never fully convinced in their heart when deeply questioned, always finding certain questions themselves, when they are honest. Now, I just point to 1 Corinthians 15:58 and try to figure out what is meant by the last trumpet. 

Some say it will be the last trumpet of the Feast of Trumpets, which can be anytime in mid September to early October, depending on the year. 

Some say it is at the 7th Trumpet of Revelation since that is the last trumpet blown in Revelation where scripture tells us in Revelation 11:15 that the kingdoms of the world have become the kingdoms of the Lord:

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

Others say that the trumpet is a commandment of God, but that one fell away fast as there are many more commandments of God after the rapture happens.

Remember, the timing, if one feels they have discovered what has evaded many throughout the years, has to flow with all of scripture, not just a few verses and passages pulled out of scripture to support their eschatology theology.

In all honesty, the best statement of when the rapture will occur is to always be ready as we are told in Mark 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

I don't disagree on any particular point. Indeed we must be ready as Peter said, "Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?" - 2 Peter 3

An important point however is the timing of the 2nd coming. "Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God," Peter says. It seems to me we cannot really be looking if we do not try to discern the timing and the immediately preceding signs. I'm convinced this can be determined with great accuracy as much is written about the timing: Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, 1 Thess, 2 Thess, 1 Cor, Rev 6, etc. The Lord wants us to know or He would have spoken so much about it, nor had those words recorded and preserved.

I think it obvious there is one correct view of the timing of the 2nd coming; Jesus certainly isn't coming back multiple times to satisfy pet doctrines of His servants; and He recorded this in scripture.

"What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?" Certainly His answer satisfied the question.

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