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Is Pre Wrath the Correct Position?


Diaste

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8 hours ago, Zemke said:

I don't think I've ever been clear on what I mean by timing. It seems obvious the events spoken of by Jesus in Matth. 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 have a connection to the seals. So when it comes to when I see biblically the resurrection/rescue as spoken of by Daniel happening it's between the sixth and seventh seal. But it's the timing within the occurring of all those events and others within Revelation that I find more secondary to the reality of those events and how we can see current events leading up to it all. 

 

I've heard it explained in the manner of an invasion. The Lord is coming and we are like the commandos dropped behind enemy lines before the major onslaught. We have work to do but there will come a time when no man can work. "Work while it is the day, night comes when no man can work." He comes like a thief in the night. The world will become progressively darker spiritually even though at times seeming to get better, birth pangs, earth tremors. Periods of time in between that are calm. Faithfulness to our first love is vastly important to even grasp the events as they occur. So yes it's important to know the scriptures but figuring out the timing of events like for instance what's up next, will not be so clear or easy without faithfulness.   

We don't know the day or hour but we know the season, night. There will come a time when we will know He is coming, just as the virgins did. A cry came out at midnight, they were not sure how much longer but they knew He was coming. "When you see these things begin to happen then look up, you're redemption draws nigh." Luke 21.

There's so much that connects and it's always best to pray and read. Message boards when it comes to these things many times makes more of a mess and argument and when I see the arguments they are always timing issues, this happens when that happens and when it happens those things will happen and while biblical understanding of these events will increase as the day approaches and being in the scriptures is important, the daily work knowing he is coming should be a bitterness in our bellies. I guess what I'm trying to say is the application in our walks needs to be more than figuring everything out. Being faithful will lead to understanding.  That day of understanding will come as we remain faithful.

Jesus warned of deception more than anything else. Discernment is very important. The disciples didn't know the true character of Judas until it was revealed to them. We are told the son of perdition will be revealed. We may at that time have an idea but chances are most of us will be surprised. If we can't see through some of the obvious deceivers today and many can't then look out. Trust only the Lord. The scriptures are always important and the illumination of the Holy Spirit vital. Oil in the lamps. It's getting darker and about these things, the Bible has much to say. The sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before that great and glorious day of the Lord shall come. Peter in Acts 2

We will know He is coming if we are alive at that time, the day or hour no, but hold on the rescue is coming. Faithfulness, not timing.

 

I agree. My only concern for 40 odd years is when Jesus is going to return and what that looks like. The only timing that can really be discerned is the plainly spoken timing, which is difficult enough from what I see. It's major events occurring in and around the 70th week and those major events occurring within the 70th week and how they relate to each other that can establish the out line as it were. Of course I don't mean timing as in appointments; timing as in order of events.

What I mean by major events are the ones everyone is always talking about: the last trump, the rapture, the 2nd coming, the A of D, tribulation, etc. Paul speaks about these as does Jesus. That's about all we can know with more than a fair degree of assurance. The timing of all the events contained within the seals will escape us I would imagine till the point the occur or even after they have already occurred.

So then would it be fair to say the major milestones in the march to the 2nd coming can be ordered to find timing?

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2 hours ago, OneLight said:

Ah, I see.  You are correct, rapture does not appear in the bible, αρπαγησομεθα does, which is translated to harpagEsometha, which means we shall be-being snatched.  So that we can understand it in our language, it was then translated to harpazo, which also means to snatch out or to seize.  We read in scripture as being caught up.

May I ask why you are even in this thread if you don't believe in any form of rapture?  Just curious.

The 'rapture' as a concept relating to being carried away, from the Medieval term 'raptura' is something that will occur as we have been promised. I prefer not to use that term as it does not appear in the text, has been popularized and carries connotations with which I disagree.

I fully believe in the harpazo that will happen to us at some future time. My point is that the differing takes on the timing of harpazo as related to other prophesied events cannot all be correct as the order of events changes with each doctrine. I believe we can know the order without doubt. For lack of a better way to put it; Is the Pre Wrath Position the correct position? 

 

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1 hour ago, Diaste said:

The 'rapture' as a concept relating to being carried away, from the Medieval term 'raptura' is something that will occur as we have been promised. I prefer not to use that term as it does not appear in the text, has been popularized and carries connotations with which I disagree.

I fully believe in the harpazo that will happen to us at some future time. My point is that the differing takes on the timing of harpazo as related to other prophesied events cannot all be correct as the order of events changes with each doctrine. I believe we can know the order without doubt. For lack of a better way to put it; Is the Pre Wrath Position the correct position?

I can't say if it is the correct position or not.  It all depends when the last trumpet will sound as stated in 1 Corinthians 15:52.   When it will sound is when the harpazo will happen.

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8 hours ago, OneLight said:

I can't say if it is the correct position or not.  It all depends when the last trumpet will sound as stated in 1 Corinthians 15:52.   When it will sound is when the harpazo will happen.

Agreed.

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16 hours ago, Diaste said:

I agree. My only concern for 40 odd years is when Jesus is going to return and what that looks like. The only timing that can really be discerned is the plainly spoken timing, which is difficult enough from what I see. It's major events occurring in and around the 70th week and those major events occurring within the 70th week and how they relate to each other that can establish the outline as it were. Of course, I don't mean timing as in appointments; timing as in order of events.

What I mean by major events are the ones everyone is always talking about: the last trump, the rapture, the 2nd coming, the A of D, tribulation, etc. Paul speaks about these as does Jesus. That's about all we can know with more than a fair degree of assurance. The timing of all the events contained within the seals will escape us I would imagine till the point they occur or even after they have already occurred.

So then would it be fair to say the major milestones in the march to the 2nd coming can be ordered to find timing?

 
 
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Everything that can happen will happen. Imagine all the prophetic history of types and plain-spoken prophecy and the typologies in historical events all happening in a short window. It's one of the reasons it will be a time like no other and never will be again. If we are faithful and know the scripture we will recognize what's happening and will understand.

We can know of many things like radical homosexuality will get violent but the heaviness of what Lot went through will only be known by those who will be surrounded by them. There is knowing and then there is knowing. What will happen in the future has happened and is happening. It will just increase to a level beyond any rationality. Which in some quarters already is irrational. We see these things building. 

The final conflict, like in Daniel, will be a north-south conflict. Look at the world. The developing nations in the southern hemisphere will conflict with the developed nations of the north. Sixty years ago there were only dozens of Jewish believers in Israel, well maybe a hundred, but now tens of thousands. Sixty years ago in the west in any major city, there would be a Jewish family or one or two believing Jews in a congregation and now there are multiple Jewish congregations with a few Gentiles. The age of the Gentiles is coming to a close. More natural branches are being grafted back in. Homosexuality, abortion, pagan religions all giving rise to the hatred and washing down of Judeo-Christian values.

It's very possible a major conflict could occur that would set up a time of peace. This could give rise to a structuring of the world that would amaze us biblically. A time of peace unprecedented, are we not told he, the son of perdition, would conquer with peace. We know what the Bible says but we don't know until we know experientially how these things will look. We have all the world empires all the types in scripture our own experiences calamities and horror as we speak happening in the world. It will be like that only far worse. But a time of peace will be a major indicator that sets up a deception we have yet to face. People will be saying peace peace peace and then sudden destruction. It's why I mentioned faithfulness above all else. We need to take into account that everything that has happened will happen, just like the days of Noah and the days of Lot. Jesus' own words. There will be an escalation and order of events but what we are given is an outline as we approach that day. But it will just be crazy. Commerce will still be going on and some portions of the world won't be as bad as others and people will listen to whatever the government tells them for law and order, just like we have seen liberty encroached upon after 9/11. People won't care about liberty or freedom just stability.        

Anyway, there is so much that can be said and having a brother in Christ that we can personally in the flesh speak with regularly about these things helps with faithfulness and further understanding and the peace that passes all human understanding. Rahab is a great picture of faithfulness in the face of a coming calamity of calamities. Her city was burned and no survivors other than who she was able to convince to come into her house.                                                                                             

Edited by Zemke
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18 hours ago, Zemke said:

Everything that can happen will happen. Imagine all the prophetic history of types and plain-spoken prophecy and the typologies in historical events all happening in a short window. It's one of the reasons it will be a time like no other and never will be again. If we are faithful and know the scripture we will recognize what's happening and will understand.

We can know of many things like radical homosexuality will get violent but the heaviness of what Lot went through will only be known by those who will be surrounded by them. There is knowing and then there is knowing. What will happen in the future has happened and is happening. It will just increase to a level beyond any rationality. Which in some quarters already is irrational. We see these things building. 

The final conflict, like in Daniel, will be a north-south conflict. Look at the world. The developing nations in the southern hemisphere will conflict with the developed nations of the north. Sixty years ago there were only dozens of Jewish believers in Israel, well maybe a hundred, but now tens of thousands. Sixty years ago in the west in any major city, there would be a Jewish family or one or two believing Jews in a congregation and now there are multiple Jewish congregations with a few Gentiles. The age of the Gentiles is coming to a close. More natural branches are being grafted back in. Homosexuality, abortion, pagan religions all giving rise to the hatred and washing down of Judeo-Christian values.

It's very possible a major conflict could occur that would set up a time of peace. This could give rise to a structuring of the world that would amaze us biblically. A time of peace unprecedented, are we not told he, the son of perdition, would conquer with peace. We know what the Bible says but we don't know until we know experientially how these things will look. We have all the world empires all the types in scripture our own experiences calamities and horror as we speak happening in the world. It will be like that only far worse. But a time of peace will be a major indicator that sets up a deception we have yet to face. People will be saying peace peace peace and then sudden destruction. It's why I mentioned faithfulness above all else. We need to take into account that everything that has happened will happen, just like the days of Noah and the days of Lot. Jesus' own words. There will be an escalation and order of events but what we are given is an outline as we approach that day. But it will just be crazy. Commerce will still be going on and some portions of the world won't be as bad as others and people will listen to whatever the government tells them for law and order, just like we have seen liberty encroached upon after 9/11. People won't care about liberty or freedom just stability.        

Anyway, there is so much that can be said and having a brother in Christ that we can personally in the flesh speak with regularly about these things helps with faithfulness and further understanding and the peace that passes all human understanding. Rahab is a great picture of faithfulness in the face of a coming calamity of calamities. Her city was burned and no survivors other than who she was able to convince to come into her house.                                                                                             

No disagreement from me. I would add that faithfulness is not something that can be attained in any other manner than that which you are to have faith in has prescribed. I go back to the following when I think of Faith, not in the saving power of the resurrection, for we have that, not faith in the shed blood of our Lord Jesus for remission of sin, for we have that also, but continued and growing faith in the promises of God and this bit of truth of Jesus in the Revelation;

"Because you have kept My command to endure with patience, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world,"

It's a forward faith as it were, not a backward faith. Not to say the belief in the power of the shed blood of Jesus and the resurrection isn't faith but if, as I believe you are saying, "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" then in the promises of God is where the faithfulness of sincere belief is manifest. One of those promises is the return of Jesus Christ on some day in the future of which we cannot know precisely, but can only see the times and seasons and the prophesied events before that great day. 

So then faithfulness in the God of our fathers and the King of kings would be manifest in our hope and the depth of spiritual insight we strive to attain; building the evidence of a strong faith in those promises God gave to Abraham and indeed to all of us. I can think of no better way to build on that faith going forward from this day than to gain as much understanding as we can; by the leading of the Holy Spirit to greater knowledge of those promises and more understanding of the times we will face.

If, as you have said, the times that are coming are more than unprecedented, as they are "unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again."; then it's imperative we arm ourselves with sure understanding by greater knowledge of those things that are coming upon us. I have read of the Hall of Faith in Hebrews 11 and it is impressive so much so that indeed the world was not worthy of the faithful of ancient times. But Paul says this also,

" These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect."

This means we have a duty to arm ourselves and prepare for the greatest battle any of the faithful in God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ has ever seen or endured. We can only do that through spiritual means, and those ways come about by the increase in the fear of God, which is the beginning of wisdom, and in greater knowledge and wisdom that leads to the highest level of faith, understanding.

"Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding." - Proverbs 4

In my mind then it's essential we understand what is coming in as much detail as we can since no prior experience exists to rely upon. We have only the word of our Lord going forward by which to prepare for something which we cannot prepare.

 

Edited by Diaste
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Amen.

Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,.......2Peter 3:14

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On 4/1/2019 at 9:24 AM, Diaste said:

There cannot exist multiple correct understandings of the 2nd Coming and the Gathering. 

Which is the correct understanding?

Hello Diaste,

                   I do not believe the pre wrath position is the correct one. It has all of the same problems as pre trib, just pushed back a bit further. Rev 15:8- And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. So, nobody gets in until the end.

This alone makes it a post trib  rapture. pre trib and pre wrath require extra raptures/resurrections than what are shown in scripture. Consider Rev 19:7&8- Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

It is only at this time when the bride/Church is given her new attire, not 7 or 3.5 yrs earlier. I cannot suppose she was able to enter in without the proper attire. (or naked) Here she is having just received the white attire (changed in an instant) .......IN THE AIR!!!! Rev 19:1- And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

So there they are, in the sky as their redeemer comes to rescue them on a white horse. He then destroys His enemies with the armies of heaven (angels). This is happening while the a/c and false prophet are alive...at the end!

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2 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hello Diaste,

                   I do not believe the pre wrath position is the correct one. It has all of the same problems as pre trib, just pushed back a bit further. Rev 15:8- And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. So, nobody gets in until the end.

This alone makes it a post trib  rapture. pre trib and pre wrath require extra raptures/resurrections than what are shown in scripture. Consider Rev 19:7&8- Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

It is only at this time when the bride/Church is given her new attire, not 7 or 3.5 yrs earlier. I cannot suppose she was able to enter in without the proper attire. (or naked) Here she is having just received the white attire (changed in an instant) .......IN THE AIR!!!! Rev 19:1- And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

So there they are, in the sky as their redeemer comes to rescue them on a white horse. He then destroys His enemies with the armies of heaven (angels). This is happening while the a/c and false prophet are alive...at the end!

May I ask a couple of questions here?  How and when did those in Revelation 6:9-11 able to stand under the alter and due to their question, were handed a white robe?

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”  Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Then we see a great multitude in Revelation 7:9-17, standing before the throne of God.  How and when did they arrive?

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”  All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying:

“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

A question was then asked to John, but John could not answer, so one of the elders answered it for him.

Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.  Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.  They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

These are stated to be in heaven already also. 

May I suggest that you review the complete chapter of Revelation 15 and take note that this is the first time the temple of the tabernacle is ever mentioned, which is the temple spoken of in Revelation 15:8.  Every other time prior we are not in the temple of the tabernacle, but in the throne room of God.  I suggest there is a difference.

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1 hour ago, OneLight said:

May I ask a couple of questions here?  How and when did those in Revelation 6:9-11 able to stand under the alter and due to their question, were handed a white robe?

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”  Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Then we see a great multitude in Revelation 7:9-17, standing before the throne of God.  How and when did they arrive?

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”  All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying:

“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

A question was then asked to John, but John could not answer, so one of the elders answered it for him.

Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.  Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.  They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

These are stated to be in heaven already also. 

May I suggest that you review the complete chapter of Revelation 15 and take note that this is the first time the temple of the tabernacle is ever mentioned, which is the temple spoken of in Revelation 15:8.  Every other time prior we are not in the temple of the tabernacle, but in the throne room of God.  I suggest there is a difference.

Hello OneLight,

                          You may remember that the altar is not "inside" where God's presence is fount in the earthly pattern we have. Certainly there is no altar in the heavenly temple either. No more sacrifices. So they themselves are not "in". So this represents their state awaiting resurrection. I could say more about that if you like. It may seem to be splitting hairs, but "given" also is used to impart the idea of granted, assigned etc. and therefore doesn't strictly infer that they wear them at that time to signify they are resurrected. That would be impossible according to Heb 11:40- God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Nope, we ALL get resurrected at the same time. 

The other Rev. 15 verse you posted is not chronological, it is a separate vision looking forward. The book of Revelation is not strictly linear, but a a series of visions, in some places they change from one sentence to the next. Chapters did not exist when it was penned. 

Then in Rev, 7 it is self explanatory. Those people went through the tribulation. Please see Rev 20:4. Same group, resisted the mark etc. There will be those who remain right up to the end. So, yet another rapture/resurrection would be needed. Unless there is some unlisted one of each, its too many.

 

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