Jump to content
IGNORED

They hate us because of God. Should we love them because of God?


Ogner

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  6
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  463
  • Content Per Day:  0.20
  • Reputation:   175
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  12/08/2017
  • Status:  Offline

9 hours ago, Ogner said:

The jewish people knew before Jesus how to take care of enemies.

In Romans 12:20 Paul does not quote Jesus but the words of Proverbs 25:21 "If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat;

Paul was teaching the believers what to do concerning unbelievers. 19 "Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but leave room for God’s wrath. For it is written: “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says the Lord.” 20 On the contrary, “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink. For in so doing, you will heap burning coals on his head.” 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

That is along the lines of what Jesus said in Mat.5:43-44 (posted below).

9 hours ago, Ogner said:

Why? Why not Jesus? Maybe he wants there to be no confusion.

His real intention was to explain to pagans what Jesus means. Which kinds of enemies we must demonstrate love?  I know it's not easy.

in Proverbs 25:21 Hebrew text versions are used word  (נַאֲךָ)  saw-nay'  - adversary, opponent

Then compare with Exodus 15:9 "The enemy boasted, ‘I will pursue, I will overtake them. I will divide the spoils; I will "

Hebrew  text - (אֹויֵב) o-yabe' - enemy combatant

If your [(נַאֲךָ)  saw-nay' ] is hungry, give him food to eat. But if If your [(אֹויֵב) o-yabe'] is hungry, leave him alone.

It still remains that Paul and Jesus are saying the same thing.. whether the other person be "enemy" or "combatant".

Jesus said in Mat.5:43-44 "You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’  But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute or mistreat you."

9 hours ago, Ogner said:

Now about guilty to crimes

Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder."

Hebrew  text - (תִּֿרְצָֽח׃) raw-tsakh'  - murder.

Bible say about guilty to crimes. How do we define them and what should we do with them? (Numbers 35:16, 21, 31; and Deuteronomy 22:25)  Deuteronomy 13:9 "you must kill him without fail!"

Bible say about killing in war Numbers 31:7 " They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. "

Hebrew  text - (תַּֽהַרְגֶנּוּ) haw-rag'  -kill, put them to death.

You shall not [(תִּֿרְצָֽח׃) raw-tsakh' ]  but you must [ (תַּֽהַרְגֶנּוּ) haw-rag' ] the guilty without fail.

Those verses have to do with war.. God was telling the Jews to fight in battle against an enemy in warfare. Which is entirely different than your list that you argue we are not required to extend God's love to.. telling them that God loves them and offers redemption and salvation to them.

9 hours ago, Ogner said:

In the Old Testament God says one thing, and then does the complete opposite?

Psalms 5: 5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

And so Jesus said in Mat.7 concerning the lawless man, "Depart from Me, I never knew you." Why? Because of all the things he boasted that he did in the name of Jesus, he did not say that he was redeemed by the name of Jesus. But John said in 1:12 "But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God." And so for them it is said in 2 Tm.2:19 "Nevertheless, God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord must turn away from iniquity.”

John also said in Jn.6:37, "to anyone who comes to Him in repentance.. He will in no wise cast out."

How is "the list" going to know that there is a place for repentance unless a Christian operating the ministry of reconciliation tells them? that God is not holding any sin against them. (it doesn't add there "except for rapists, murderers and villains")

Why are they told? Because it says in 1 Tm.2:4 that "it's God's will that all be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." (it doesn't add there "except for rapists, murderers and villains")

We are not to make a list of certain sinners and declare them to be unredeemable.

9 hours ago, Ogner said:

Psalms 139:19-22 'Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men. For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain. Do not I hate them, O Lord , that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies. '

John 3:36 'He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.'

They by their will of choice have to be permanently hostile to redemption when they hear it for those verses to apply. We are not supposed to put a certain list of sinners in that category.

We are by the scriptures directed as ambassadors of Christ and the ministry of reconciliation to offer redemption to all. Because God so loved the world, all, that He demonstrated His love to all sinners in giving His beloved Son for all, that all may be saved.  (Jn.3:16; 2 Cor.5:18; Rm.5:8)

9 hours ago, Ogner said:

Whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

They have to reject.. we are not to single out a list and say that God automatically rejects those on that list and refuses for His grace to abound toward them.

You are cherry picking in order to make a case that God does that. Yet the scriptures speak of God's mercy and grace toward all.

9 hours ago, Ogner said:

God hates all who do iniquity and Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
David hated them from the bottom of his heart.
God’s wrath remains on them because they reject Jesus.

They.. according to you, are those on your list. But God doesn't make such a list.

Whenever the wrath of God came upon sinners in the old testament, that was back then, before Jesus, when none could be saved, none could get born again. The gentiles could only have a measure of inclusion into the covenant of God through the Jews.

However, it's not the same for sinners during this age of God's grace. And yet to happen in future, during the Tribulation, the wrath of God will be upon the unrepentant sinner (even those who are not on your list).

We Christians during this age of grace should not be so quick to consign the wrath of God upon sinners before they've heard the gospel and repented.

9 hours ago, Ogner said:

God hates and abhor them. David hates them. 

David was a Jew wasn't he? Are you? We are Christians - gentiles living under a different and better covenant aren't we?

David didn't use your list did he? David didn't live during this God ordained and appointed age of grace, did he?

God does not abhor nor hate anyone. God loves the world. In the old testament times the hearts of sinners were hard, yet there were a few gentiles mentioned in the Bible who got on the family list and line of David, and Jesus.

So, God didn't abhor and hate all gentiles in the old testament. The word "hate" used concerning sinners is the same word used when it says that God hated Esau but loved Jacob. It's the same word used when it says that Jacob loved Rachel but hated Leah.

The word "hate" in those cases is not referring to hostility, but to love in a greater and lesser degree.

9 hours ago, Ogner said:

Why can't I? Because you say so, I can't?

I don't say so, the Bible says it.

9 hours ago, Ogner said:

I am going to follow God's example. 

"Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye."
(Ac.4:19)

The Word of reconciliation to all sinners be the judge. If a Christian is not thinking in line with the ministry of reconciliation unto all, then that Christian isn't following God's or Jesus' example.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  13
  • Topic Count:  48
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  6,726
  • Content Per Day:  2.92
  • Reputation:   6,258
  • Days Won:  5
  • Joined:  12/03/2017
  • Status:  Offline

12 hours ago, JTC said:

If anyone is looking for reasons to hate others or become angry they can find lots of reasons. It's very easy to get angry or to hate but it isn't very Christian like. What's more God has commanded us not to do it. It's really very plain God said it's a no-no.

 

“ kill them with kindness”.        It works.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Mars Hill
  • Followers:  17
  • Topic Count:  18
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  13,256
  • Content Per Day:  5.40
  • Reputation:   1
  • Days Won:  62
  • Joined:  07/07/2017
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  03/25/1972

28 minutes ago, pinacled said:

Wrong,

Never has the Lord ever instructed His own to reconcile with a murderer nor any of its children who have taken the mark of the beast.

 

 

He simply said preach the gospel ,  if they hear amen if they reject , shake the dust off those feet as a testimony against them and move on .

As for those who take the mark , ITS TOO LATE .    You right my friend .   Folks are teaching some things wrong .    We are kind to all, but we cannot be reconciled

with those not reconciled .  we just preach the gospel of reconciliation which is the gospel for only CHRIST can reconcile a man to God .      Hands up and let a double praise

be heard to the LORD .  

  • Praise God! 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Mars Hill
  • Followers:  17
  • Topic Count:  18
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  13,256
  • Content Per Day:  5.40
  • Reputation:   1
  • Days Won:  62
  • Joined:  07/07/2017
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  03/25/1972

10 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

“ kill them with kindness”.        It works.

Sadly not always .    But we are not to do evil unto our enemies in any way .  They strike us , we don't strike back .  they rail on us , we don't rail back .

We warn , YES and we compel them to come to Christ YES .     But if they hear not , we move on as JESUS said too move on .

THE POPE is the one behind this messed up wacked out reconcile the world stuff .  HE IS .

And you would cring if you heard his last and latest statement .    I don't think francis would approve of me one bit .   But he aint GOD now is he .

IF anyone wants to know why our churches or most churches are getting pumped full and have been getting taught this odd type of non biblical reconcilatoin .

LOOK no farther than ROME , its where it came from .    And who wants to support that house .

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  18
  • Topic Count:  200
  • Topics Per Day:  0.05
  • Content Count:  2,795
  • Content Per Day:  0.65
  • Reputation:   1,502
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/25/2012
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  07/26/1952

19 hours ago, Ogner said:

But you haven't yet given a scripture to support your opinion.

My opinion is the opinion of God. That hate is wrong should be clearly evident so I shouldn't need to provide scriptures on a board full of Christians. Nevertheless I am working on a new website that will have scriptural support. In fact I'm looking for a few people to help me, especially if you have experience in web design & creation. I also could use reporter minded folks that can take a topic, research it and then write an interesting article.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  3
  • Topic Count:  27
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  562
  • Content Per Day:  0.20
  • Reputation:   268
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  05/27/2016
  • Status:  Offline

13 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

Paul was teaching the believers what to do concerning unbelievers. 19 "Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but leave room for God’s wrath. For it is written: “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says the Lord.” 20 On the contrary, “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink. For in so doing, you will heap burning coals on his head.” 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

That is along the lines of what Jesus said in Mat.5:43-44 (posted below).

It still remains that Paul and Jesus are saying the same thing.. whether the other person be "enemy" or "combatant".

Jesus said in Mat.5:43-44 "You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’  But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute or mistreat you."

Those verses have to do with war.. God was telling the Jews to fight in battle against an enemy in warfare. Which is entirely different than your list that you argue we are not required to extend God's love to.. telling them that God loves them and offers redemption and salvation to them.

And so Jesus said in Mat.7 concerning the lawless man, "Depart from Me, I never knew you." Why? Because of all the things he boasted that he did in the name of Jesus, he did not say that he was redeemed by the name of Jesus. But John said in 1:12 "But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God." And so for them it is said in 2 Tm.2:19 "Nevertheless, God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord must turn away from iniquity.”

John also said in Jn.6:37, "to anyone who comes to Him in repentance.. He will in no wise cast out."

How is "the list" going to know that there is a place for repentance unless a Christian operating the ministry of reconciliation tells them? that God is not holding any sin against them. (it doesn't add there "except for rapists, murderers and villains")

Why are they told? Because it says in 1 Tm.2:4 that "it's God's will that all be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." (it doesn't add there "except for rapists, murderers and villains")

We are not to make a list of certain sinners and declare them to be unredeemable.

They by their will of choice have to be permanently hostile to redemption when they hear it for those verses to apply. We are not supposed to put a certain list of sinners in that category.

We are by the scriptures directed as ambassadors of Christ and the ministry of reconciliation to offer redemption to all. Because God so loved the world, all, that He demonstrated His love to all sinners in giving His beloved Son for all, that all may be saved.  (Jn.3:16; 2 Cor.5:18; Rm.5:8)

They have to reject.. we are not to single out a list and say that God automatically rejects those on that list and refuses for His grace to abound toward them.

You are cherry picking in order to make a case that God does that. Yet the scriptures speak of God's mercy and grace toward all.

They.. according to you, are those on your list. But God doesn't make such a list.

Whenever the wrath of God came upon sinners in the old testament, that was back then, before Jesus, when none could be saved, none could get born again. The gentiles could only have a measure of inclusion into the covenant of God through the Jews.

However, it's not the same for sinners during this age of God's grace. And yet to happen in future, during the Tribulation, the wrath of God will be upon the unrepentant sinner (even those who are not on your list).

We Christians during this age of grace should not be so quick to consign the wrath of God upon sinners before they've heard the gospel and repented.

David was a Jew wasn't he? Are you? We are Christians - gentiles living under a different and better covenant aren't we?

David didn't use your list did he? David didn't live during this God ordained and appointed age of grace, did he?

God does not abhor nor hate anyone. God loves the world. In the old testament times the hearts of sinners were hard, yet there were a few gentiles mentioned in the Bible who got on the family list and line of David, and Jesus.

So, God didn't abhor and hate all gentiles in the old testament. The word "hate" used concerning sinners is the same word used when it says that God hated Esau but loved Jacob. It's the same word used when it says that Jacob loved Rachel but hated Leah.

The word "hate" in those cases is not referring to hostility, but to love in a greater and lesser degree.

I don't say so, the Bible says it.

The Word of reconciliation to all sinners be the judge. If a Christian is not thinking in line with the ministry of reconciliation unto all, then that Christian isn't following God's or Jesus' example.

In Rom 12:19 Paul quotes the words of Deuteronomy 32:35 

If you read the whole chapter, you will see that Israel had acted lawlessly and they sacrificed unto devils, not to God. 

At this particularly trying moment, God said "To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; ..."

So what does that means? Is it your proof that we should love antichrists, witch, murderer, burglar, rapist... and other villains or what? Those who shows no remorse for their crime and happy when can hurt me.

What do you mean?  Should I be grateful them that they want to hurt me?
If I'm a victim of a crime I can't go to court?
And are you trying to say that if criminals want to take my shirt, I must hand over them coat as well?
And do you think  I should be  thankful to criminals for I have been the victim of crime?
You think this is what Paul was talking about?

This is another proof of we should live by law of God and should be trying to do the Lord's will. 
Otherwise, God will say "To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; ..." again.

Jeremiah 22:3 "Thus says the Lord: Do justice and righteousness, and deliver from the hand of the oppressor him who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the alien, the fatherless, and the widow, nor shed innocent blood in this place.".

Jeremiah 22:26 "He judged the cause of the poor and needy; then it was well. Is not this to know me? says the Lord.".

For example, robbers broke into home, they looted the place, and shot a dog. So what are we supposed to do?
Should we lock the doors and call the police?
or should we say to our children, that's good because we love crimenals so much that we need to give  them everything we have then we also must keep the secret? Our neighbors may be next victims, but that's not why we care. 
Because we love our enemies and  God said "To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; ..."

You should be careful about what you say next.

You can love and forgive antichrists, witch, criminals, murderer, burglar, rapist... and other villains. 
What does that have to do with Jesus, law of Moses and Biblical teaching? 

Speaking of which, you're putting people in danger.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  11
  • Topic Count:  320
  • Topics Per Day:  0.04
  • Content Count:  6,829
  • Content Per Day:  0.85
  • Reputation:   3,570
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  02/16/2002
  • Status:  Offline

21 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

“ kill them with kindness”.        It works.

Hard to do while your on your knees with your hand tied behind your back and their cutting off your head.

Edited by HAZARD
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Mars Hill
  • Followers:  17
  • Topic Count:  18
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  13,256
  • Content Per Day:  5.40
  • Reputation:   1
  • Days Won:  62
  • Joined:  07/07/2017
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  03/25/1972

1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

 

“ kill them with kindness”.        It works.

Hard to do while your on your knew with your hand tied behind your back and their cutting off your head.

IN that case just yell out as fast as you can , LORD FORGIVE THEM .      Hey paul seen Stephen do that .  Yet lets also not forget that same Stephen sure was a correcting too .

Cant have one without the other .   We gotta exhort and point only to Christ and our desire should be , even when they come to kill us , OH LORD lay not this sin to their charge .

And on last thing .   While we do forgive those who hate us ,  don't mean we unequally yoked .   Though we do forgive , It don't mean we conform to their evil way .

It means we do as JESUS said ,  if they wont hear , reject shake the dust off and move on .   If they then try and kill,   just forgive them as the LORD too forgave his own killers .

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  13
  • Topic Count:  48
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  6,726
  • Content Per Day:  2.92
  • Reputation:   6,258
  • Days Won:  5
  • Joined:  12/03/2017
  • Status:  Offline

5 hours ago, HAZARD said:

 

“ kill them with kindness”.        It works.

Hard to do while your on your knees with your hand tied behind your back and their cutting off your head.

 

True.....devils don’t respond to kindness.....it is not a fail-proof method, for sure.....most normal humans not filled with hate will respond as Paul said—- it’s like pouring burning coal on their heads 

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  23
  • Topic Count:  133
  • Topics Per Day:  0.03
  • Content Count:  2,864
  • Content Per Day:  0.62
  • Reputation:   2,596
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  08/07/2011
  • Status:  Offline

On 4/7/2019 at 4:31 AM, Ogner said:

Jesus said why he did it. Because they know not what they do. They just execute court judgements.

So, in your opinion, witches, murderers, burglars, rapists and all other villains...  are "the world" that God so loved in sending His Son to take the punishment for their sins? 
Can love someone and hate his at the same time?

In your opinion, in the Old Testament God says one thing, and then does the complete opposite?

 

the word testament comes two passages in the New Testament, one in Hebrews and one in Galatians where actually the word is properly rendered covenant. It would be easier, it would be more accurate to speak of the Bible as having two covenants: the old covenant and new covenant. Of course, we have inherited the term testament, so we will continue to speak of the Bible having two testaments, but the notion of covenant shapes an awful lot of how the Bible is put together rather than testament. a covenant is made with the people of God as a nation in Exodus, and this is the one that is sometimes referred to in the New Testament as the old covenant.“

Hebrews 8: 6 (NIV) But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.

8 But God found fault with the people and said: "The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.

9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.

10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

11 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

In the New Testament, It was the pharisees and scribes that misapplied and abused those guidelines to teach and justify personal revenge for every and all insults. (Exodus 21) But Jesus says.... “But I tell you”. (Matt 5:22) and he gives the reason why we are to love those who are abusive. It does not mean that a violent person will not face the police, a judge and jury. (judicial system) But that we as Christians ourselves; do not seek out personal retribution (revenge) for slights. For example, someone calls you a bad name, you are not to return in kind, but instead let the insult roll off your shoulders and if this person asks you for a drink of water, give it to him/her. In this way you are showing God's character and love to the offender through your action of kindness.

Matthew 5:45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

In the above verse we see that God is kind to all, even those who are unrighteous. Jesus came and died on the cross so that those in your list quoted above can be reconciled back to God in the same way as anyone else. No matter who they are, or what they have been like. Yes, all come to God in the same way, through Christ on the cross. People you think of that are good and deserving have also sinned, because God says “all have sinned” all are alike, there is none that is righteous.  Not believing what God has said about his son and the way to him is sinful in itself.  So a good person, that only mildly sins is also under condemnation because he or she refuses to believe.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...