Joulre2abba Posted April 11, 2019 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 463 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 175 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/08/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 11, 2019 (edited) On 4/9/2019 at 8:56 AM, Ogner said: In Rom 12:19 Paul quotes the words of Deuteronomy 32:35 If you read the whole chapter, you will see that Israel had acted lawlessly and they sacrificed unto devils, not to God. At this particularly trying moment, God said "To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; ..." Are you comparing yourself with God who has capacity to decide regarding a situation? Don't you remember what I posted ..do not avenge but remember to leave such things with God... "vengeance is Mine, I will repay says the Lord." Does that mean we are to be like the sons of thunder who said with enthusiasm that the fire of judgement fall upon someone they deemed needed it? We are not to do that according to Jesus who said "You don't know what spirit you're of." Meaning.. their thoughts came not from God. I see that you want to live in the old testament like the sons of thunder did. But we are living in this age of grace. The same grace that we enjoy from the Father is also given unto the worst of sinners. As Jesus said "God makes the sun to shine and the rain to fall on both the good and the evil." Quote So what does that means? Is it your proof that we should love antichrists, witch, murderer, burglar, rapist... and other villains or what? Those who shows no remorse for their crime and happy when can hurt me. Do you really expect them to act like loving Christians to you? That's just ridiculous. But anyway, have you read the beatitudes of Jesus lately? He states in so many words that the Christian life is not a bowl full of cherries, it's not sitting in the recliner and being waited on hand and foot. It's not sinners automatically being nice, thoughtful and kind to Christians.. but it's the favor of God when any of them are. But we are no matter the mistreatment, supposed to be loving, and kind to them. Jesus always loved the pharisees who sought to shove Him off the nearest cliff. And some of us think that they are the exception? That sinners won't be hostile towards them? What do you suppose the apostle Paul thought about it when he was a multiplied times mistreated by those of many walks of life? Did he think so much about how those bad people showed no remorse whatsoever for their crimes.. did he think about how happy they were at hurting him? Did he use any of that as an excuse not to forgive and love them? I'll answer my own questions. No he didn't make excuses, he forgave them for the sake of the anointing to continue to work in his life because he knew that if he didn't forgive then God would not forgive him. If he didn't forgive then he couldn't operate in the love of God and therefore his ministry effectiveness was down the tubes. His speaking in tongues would amount to nothing. His faith to move mountains would amount to nothing. If he was martyred it would amount to nothing. All of this Christian life is by faith and faith works by love. God has demonstrated His love in forgiving our transgressions and also those of the worst of sinners. Of which Paul called himself when he'd dedicated himself to hunting down and putting them in a prison that would result in the same that the apostle Paul experienced.. no hope of release, no hope of life. And the apostle Peter too who the next day was to be martyred except that the saints prayed for his release and an angel opened the jail cell door and the exit door out of that prison. If the apostle Paul and Sylus had been angry at those who put them in jail just because they'd been preaching the gospel.. they'd both of rotted and died, but instead they worshiped God.. can't do that without forgiving others.. the praise was heard from God and the miraculous happened. We Christians are to imitate God in loving and forgiving. That is the only way that we'll be able to accomplish our good works in this life and receive rewards from Jesus at the Bema Seat. I thank God for the right examples in the Bible of how we are supposed to be in regards of what pleases God. Quote What do you mean? Should I be grateful them that they want to hurt me? I never said that we're supposed to be grateful to those who persecute us. But Jesus said to pray for such people. And we're not supposed to pray that the suns of thunder fire of God comes on them and reduces them to a greasy spot on the ground. Quote If I'm a victim of a crime I can't go to court? I'm not saying that at all. I took my case to court when I got hit by a semi truck and injured in such a way that I'm still physically debilitated today. I couldn't hold a job, I didn't get disability compensation. The court settlement compensation ran out in just a few months time. So there's been just one wage earner in our household for these many years. The injuries I sustained back then are taking their toll even more so now that I'm older, those injuries contributing to my general health and ability to function in top condition for my age. But.. all the while I prayed God's best concerning them. I prayed and still pray earnestly for their salvation. I did the same when I was burgled, more than once over the years. Because the Bible says, Jesus said "If you have ought against any, forgive." Quote And are you trying to say that if criminals want to take my shirt, I must hand over them coat as well? Now you are quoting what Jesus taught the Christian to do. Ask Him your question. Quote And do you think I should be thankful to criminals for I have been the victim of crime? You think this is what Paul was talking about? Do you think that is what Paul told Christians to do? Quote This is another proof of we should live by law of God and should be trying to do the Lord's will. The apostle Paul defined what God's law is that we are supposed to keep. In Rom.13:8-10 "Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not covet," and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Quote Otherwise, God will say "To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; ..." again. Yes, the decision is up to Him. We are not to be like the suns of thunder to ever think that God gives us the right to avenge ourselves, or to make our list of bad people and call upon God to wipe them out. Quote Jeremiah 22:3 "Thus says the Lord: Do justice and righteousness, and deliver from the hand of the oppressor him who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the alien, the fatherless, and the widow, nor shed innocent blood in this place.". That is spoken to those under the old covenant. On the basis of that verse the widow woman during Jesus ministry went before the unjust judge and demanded that righteousness be done by him on her behalf. On the basis of that scripture Jesus ministered to all who were oppressed.. those who'd been robbed of health, and the sick. Jesus did no wrong to the Syro-Phoenician woman but rather delivered her daughter from the demon. Jesus did no wrong to the Roman soldier who asked that his servant be healed. Jesus called for mercy to prevail concerning the woman caught in adultery .. that her blood not be shed.. for who among those Pharasees were innocent to throw any stones? Quote Jeremiah 22:26 "He judged the cause of the poor and needy; then it was well. Is not this to know me? says the Lord.". Jeremiah 9:23-24 "Thus says the Lord: “Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom, let not the mighty man boast in his might, let not the rich man boast in his riches, but let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the Lord who practices steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in the earth. For in these things I delight, declares the Lord.” God puts first that He practices steadfast love. And because of that, justice, and righteousness. God's grace to the sinner is God's justice (fairness) and righteousness (right-doing). "He who knew no sin was made to be sin for us that we be made the righteousness of God in Him." That is to whosoever believes. Be it the worst of sinners, or the minor sinner. God doesn't really make any such distinction but I make it because you see a distinction. Quote For example, robbers broke into home, they looted the place, and shot a dog. So what are we supposed to do? Should we lock the doors and call the police? or should we say to our children, that's good because we love crimenals so much that we need to give them everything we have then we also must keep the secret? Our neighbors may be next victims, but that's not why we care. The writer of Hebrews 10:32-35 said "32 Don’t you remember those days right after the Light shined in your hearts? You endured a great marathon season of suffering hardships, yet you stood your ground. 33 And at times you were publicly and shamefully mis-treated, being persecuted for your faith; then at others times you stood side by side with those who preach the message of hope. 34 You sympathized with those in prison[d] and when all your belongings were confiscated you accepted that violation with joy; convinced that you possess a treasure growing in heaven that could never be taken from you. 35 So don’t lose your bold, courageous faith, for you are destined for a great reward!" Quote Because we love our enemies and God said "To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; ..." Your using "Because we love our enemies" seems to be said like anyone would enjoy getting teeth pulled without novocaine. Quote You should be careful about what you say next. You can love and forgive antichrists, witch, criminals, murderer, burglar, rapist... and other villains. What does that have to do with Jesus, law of Moses and Biblical teaching? My scripture references shows what it has to do with Jesus, the law of Moses and Biblical teaching. But the way you've been going.. you'll probably find a way to ignore or call them invalid in some way. Quote Speaking of which, you're putting people in danger. Directing anyone to God's will to love sinners does not put anyone in danger. However, you're one-sided postulations will by your own prediction put people who accept your stance on the matter in the same danger that you are in. To live in continuous hostility toward those whom God has already demonstrated His love toward them, through the voluntary sacrifice of Jesus through crucifixion. On the basis of all of the scriptures and comments I've given throughout this discussion, I say that those who do not honor the gospel message, to count all to be redeemable, are in danger of being incapable of effectively evangelizing ordinary sinners, much less the worst of sinners. Edited April 11, 2019 by Joulre2abba edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTC Posted April 12, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 200 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,795 Content Per Day: 0.65 Reputation: 1,502 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/25/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/26/1952 Share Posted April 12, 2019 On 4/9/2019 at 8:56 AM, Ogner said: In Rom 12:19 Paul quotes the words of Deuteronomy 32:35 If you read the whole chapter, you will see that Israel had acted lawlessly and they sacrificed unto devils, not to God. At this particularly trying moment, God said "To me belongeth vengeance and recompense; ..." So what does that means? Is it your proof that we should love antichrists, witch, murderer, burglar, rapist... and other villains or what? Those who shows no remorse for their crime and happy when can hurt me. What do you mean? Should I be grateful them that they want to hurt me? If I'm a victim of a crime I can't go to court? And are you trying to say that if criminals want to take my shirt, I must hand over them coat as well? And do you think I should be thankful to criminals for I have been the victim of crime? You think this is what Paul was talking about? This is another proof of we should live by law of God and should be trying to do the Lord's will. Otherwise, God will say "To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; ..." again. Jeremiah 22:3 "Thus says the Lord: Do justice and righteousness, and deliver from the hand of the oppressor him who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the alien, the fatherless, and the widow, nor shed innocent blood in this place.". Jeremiah 22:26 "He judged the cause of the poor and needy; then it was well. Is not this to know me? says the Lord.". For example, robbers broke into home, they looted the place, and shot a dog. So what are we supposed to do? Should we lock the doors and call the police? or should we say to our children, that's good because we love criminals so much that we need to give them everything we have then we also must keep the secret? Our neighbors may be next victims, but that's not why we care. Because we love our enemies and God said "To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; ..." You should be careful about what you say next. You can love and forgive antichrists, witch, criminals, murderer, burglar, rapist... and other villains. What does that have to do with Jesus, law of Moses and Biblical teaching? Speaking of which, you're putting people in danger. Ogner, I can see you're enjoying this thread immensely. I hope that's why you're making the outrageous statements you are making, many of them border on being silly. Seriously, I just don't think the Bible is that hard to understand as you are making it seem. Granted it takes several readings and many years to understand it but in my mind God is quite straightforward. Unless a person has an agenda or he's trying to justify his favorite sin, but these people usually deny that there even is sin. I hope you're being contentious on purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appy Posted April 12, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 23 Topic Count: 133 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,864 Content Per Day: 0.62 Reputation: 2,596 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted April 12, 2019 When scripture tells us to rejoice when persecuted and to love our enemies it is NOT saying you as a Christian can not seek help from the police or courts if necessary, or that you have no choice but to hang out with an abuser, not at all. And it certainly is NOT telling us to be doormats. But that none of us from one human to another has the right as an individual to act as vigilantes. In other words we don't have the right to take the law into our own hands. The persecution that the bible speaks of is the disapproval of the faith, trust and belief in Jesus Christ as Savior which does not conform to the godlessness ideology of a sinful world. Having those around us whether they be in the work place, school or get togethers with family or friends disapprove of our faith and trust in Jesus and mock us for it, or act unruly to us. We can all agree that it is unpleasant when our faith comes under fire. Being persecuted because of our faith in our Savior; allows us to share in a unique fellowship with the Lord and strengthen our character. Trials like this teach us patience and perseverance and this is what the bible means when it says to count persecution as joy. Jesus told us to love those who persecute us because of our faith in him, because he first loved us when we were still sinners ourselves. And when we follow his example we are not only acting like him, but reflecting his love and character to those that we come into contact with. We are told to love sinners because in doing so we are a living testimony of God's love, holiness and character. Jesus did not die on the cross for the righteous, but for the sinners. We are to have compassion on sinners for whom Christ died. Jesus Christ came to bring Israel, and all peoples into a new covenant. Under the provisions of this covenant he gave believers a very different commandment regarding those who do evil, or are enemies Matthew 5:43-48 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax-gatherers do the same? And if you greet your brothers only, what do you do more than others Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Leviticus 19:16-18 ‘You shall not go about as a slanderer among your people, and you are not to act against the life of your neighbor; I am the LORD. You shall not hate your fellow countryman in your heart; you may surely reprove your neighbor, but shall not incur sin because of him. You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD There are Christians that would rather harbor a grudge or nurse the wounds of an insult than love their fellow man. They seek excuses for why they should be allowed to practice hate or the dislike for certain individuals. But in doing so, they are sinning. We as Christians do NOT have the right to hate anyone else I John 4:19-21 We love, because He first loved us. If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristin Posted April 13, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 875 Content Per Day: 0.41 Reputation: 757 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/04/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted April 13, 2019 I may be reiterating here, but I feel your pain. If people in your life hate God, hence you, remove yourself from them. If it’s people on tv or in government that you see hate God, don’t watch it. Put goodness in your mind always. The rest will fall into place without your worry. Pray for all that bothers you. Be kind in person and give to those that ask (beggars). It’s really important to not read at watch all the horror and negativity the world wants us to drown in. You do well talking it out on here. Prayfully live. We do hate evil, but we hope for persons. They are not condemned yet. There is always hope❤️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogner Posted April 13, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 562 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 268 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/27/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 13, 2019 2 hours ago, Kristin said: I may be reiterating here, but I feel your pain. If people in your life hate God, hence you, remove yourself from them. If it’s people on tv or in government that you see hate God, don’t watch it. Put goodness in your mind always. The rest will fall into place without your worry. Pray for all that bothers you. Be kind in person and give to those that ask (beggars). It’s really important to not read at watch all the horror and negativity the world wants us to drown in. You do well talking it out on here. Prayfully live. We do hate evil, but we hope for persons. They are not condemned yet. There is always hope❤️ So, be a good boy. Don't be a bad boy. Depart from evil and do good. Say no to drugs Don't Worry, Be Happy. Thanks for the great advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogner Posted April 14, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 562 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 268 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/27/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 14, 2019 'When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” ' Revelation 6:9-10 It is a good example of how to pray for enemies. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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