dhchristian Posted July 29, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 136 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 2,488 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 1,325 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2019 46 minutes ago, choir loft said: The question above concerning the two witnesses takes a humanistic point of view and misinterprets scripture. The beast that defeats the two witnesses is a governmental system, not a man and not a demonic figure. The beastly governmental system arises out of the pit. It is not indicative of Godzilla or a winged gargoyle. Choir Loft, 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. (Rev 16:13-14 From this passage we can clearly see that the beast, the False prophet, and the Dragon are men possessed by the Devils. Yes, they are kingdoms and kings, and governmental powers involved, but at the heart of the matter they are men possessed by supernatural beings. The beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit is another matter. This beast is a fallen angel. Rev. 11:5 says that no man can kill the two witnesses, well this beast is no man, and hence has the power to kill them. Does this beast then assume control of a kingdom, Yes, But he has no crowns. The fallen angels are not men. Scripture supports their existence. This beast is none other than the head of these fallen angels Azazel who is chained in the bottomless pit (Was, is not now, and is to come). This fallen angel is the one the goat was sent to in the wilderness during the day of atonement AKA Scapegoat. This being the fulfillment of that Holy Day. If you interpret scripture from literalist perspective, or if you interpret from a rationalistic and allegorical perspective, you are likely to err either way. The Truth is some passages are allegorical, some are meant to be literal, and if the Holy Ghost is not guiding you, The Spirit of Truth, you will likely fall into error. I have seen many on both sides fall into error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted July 30, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2019 (edited) On 7/28/2019 at 10:46 AM, douggg said: The beast coming out of the sea in Revelation 13 represents that the beast is a kingdom, agreed. Good! The beast coming out of the sea includes all the kingdoms from beginning to end. These are the kingdoms of man. Quote But that beast also represents a person who has become the 8th king, the beast of Revelation 17:11. And the world will worship him, those who's names are not written in the Lamb's book of Life. Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. Out of all those kingdoms mentioned in Rev 13 (7 heads), John is particularly interested in the kingdom which has the 10 horns. That (head) kingdom, which was wounded and healed, will morph into an eighth kingdom when it is healed and is different from all the kingdoms before it. It morphs into an eighth kingdom when the FP takes power, with the 10 kings backing him up.; Quote The 7 heads are 7 kings, not kingdoms themselves, of that kingdom coming out of the sea. 6 are historic to us. No they are kingdoms. Each kingdom had more than one king during their reign except for Greecia. These are all kingdoms that have risen to power and fell. They already existed before they rose to power. Kingdoms come out of the sea - out of peoples, nations & tongues. And yes, 6 are historic to us now. Quote One of those heads, in Revelation 13, one king has been mortally wounded and healed, right before the 42 months begin. It is referring to the little horn 7th king. One of those "kingdoms" has been mortally wounded. Not speaking of a particular king. This kingdom that was wounded and healed will produce the 10 kings in the end times. From that kingdom, the FP will arise and work with the ten kings. He will be their leader. When he arises it turns into an eighth kingdom (not 8th king, for there were many kings before him) Quote The second beast coming out of the earth is a person, who is not a king, but a false prophet. The second beast will come out Israel. Not the end times Roman Empire. Yes he is a person, and will also be made a king over this kingdom, and the whole earth. All nations will submit to him. This king "is" the FP, the Son of Perdition. He has two horns like a lamb, playing two roles ie....1. Secular & 2. spiritual. He leads both areas. Quote The ten kings rule as a group over the end times Roman Empire, the EU it appears. Over them is the one king, the little horn person. They all are in power before the 7 years begin. Once the 7 years begin, and the person has become the beast in the middle part of the 7 years, the ten kings hand their kingdom, the EU, over to him to rule as dictator. Yes, the ten kings rule as a group. All working for the same agenda and that is to prepare for their king's arrival who God calls the FP in the NT, but in the OT he is called the little horn. It's the same man. We don't know if he will be the king of the EU yet?, and what nations are involved and which ones come out. That EU could change. It could be reformed with a new name, we don't know yet. They are all in power before this little horn shows his face and gains some attention. All leads up to him, even now. The way is being prepared. When the little horn (FP) receives his authority he will rule "one hour with the beast" - with that beast before him, that kingdom with the 10 kings. That kingdom has the new laws and the image. They are for him and he will enforce their laws. Both working together. Quote The ten kings rule as a group over the end times Roman Empire, the EU it appears. Over them is the one king, the little horn person. They all are in power before the 7 years begin. Once the 7 years begin, and the person has become the beast in the middle part of the 7 years, the ten kings hand their kingdom, the EU, over to him to rule as dictator. Yes the ten kings rule as a group over the end times Roman Empire. When their man appears and finds favour from all the nations through his smooth talk, he will be voted in and will receive power to enforce their laws (from the first beast). He has only a short time ruling (3.5 yrs). This is why he is called "the little horn" in Daniel, because his kingdom's reign is only for a very short time. So forget about this seven years for now, because time starts when the little horn (FP) receives power. He has only 3.5 yrs to do his job and then his kingdom will be taken from him by Christ. Edited July 30, 2019 by Sister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted July 30, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Sister said: That (head) kingdom, which was wounded and healed, will morph into an eighth kingdom when it is healed and is different from all the kingdoms before it. It morphs into an eighth kingdom when the FP takes power, with the 10 kings backing him up.; You need to get away from that idea that there are 8 kingdoms. There are only four kingdoms. The ten horns, ten kings, arise out of the fourth kingdom. Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 2 hours ago, Sister said: Yes he is a person, and will also be made a king over this kingdom, and the whole earth. All nations will submit to him. This king "is" the FP, the Son of Perdition. He has two horns like a lamb, playing two roles ie....1. Secular & 2. spiritual. He leads both areas. The false prophet will not be a king. He will be claiming to be Elijah, who was a prophet, not a king. Okay, you are throwing around terms like the Son of Perdition, indiscriminately, because it sounds fitting. The term Son of Petition is found about the person in 2Thessalonians2:3-4, when he is revealed as the man of sin by committing the act of going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God. The false prophet doesn't do that. He is not the Son of Perdition. 2Thessalonians2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. " He has two horns like a lamb, playing two roles ie....1. Secular & 2. spiritual. He leads both areas. " No, for another reason. The false prophet has two horns like a lamb, but speaks as a dragon - Satan. Jesus is the Lamb of God, speaking as God. Jesus preached the gospel of salvation by trusting and believing on him, his death and resurrection. The false prophet will mimick Jesus's gospel of salvation, the reason for the two horns appearance on the false prophet. The false prophet though will present a false gospel of salvation by believing upon the beast, his death and coming back to life - a lie from Satan. Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. Edited July 30, 2019 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted July 30, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2019 2 hours ago, Sister said: Yes, the ten kings rule as a group. All working for the same agenda and that is to prepare for their king's arrival who God calls the FP in the NT, but in the OT he is called the little horn. It's the same man. We don't know if he will be the king of the EU yet?, and what nations are involved and which ones come out. That EU could change. It could be reformed with a new name, we don't know yet. No, they are not "preparing" for the arrival of the false prophet. Nor the little horn. They are not intentionally preparing for any wicked bible prophecy leader to come to power. Including the little horn. The ten kings, leaders, will not even realize that they themselves are the fulfillment of bible prophecy. The little horn and the false prophet are two different persons. From among the ten kings, the little horn will come up among them. When the little horn is in power he removes three of the kings. Apparently, three of the kings will not support him being the one overall leader of their kingdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted July 30, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Sister said: Yes the ten kings rule as a group over the end times Roman Empire. When their man appears and finds favour from all the nations through his smooth talk, he will be voted in and will receive power to enforce their laws (from the first beast). He has only a short time ruling (3.5 yrs). This is why he is called "the little horn" in Daniel, because his kingdom's reign is only for a very short. So forget about this seven years for now, because time starts when the little horn (FP) receives power. He has only 3.5 yrs to do his job and then his kingdom will be taken from him by Christ. The ten kings and the little horn person come to power before the 7 years even begin, and before the Gog/Magog attack on Israel begins. No, that is not the reason the person is called the little horn. We don't know the exact reason why he is called the little horn, but his time of rule is not it. It could be that he comes from a small country. The 7 years is an absolute 100% certainty. The person is the beast, power over the world, during the second half of the seven years. In Revelation 12 - the seven years. The heads have crowns, the horns do not. In Revelation 13 - the last 42 months. The heads have no crowns, the horns do. Edited July 30, 2019 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted July 30, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2019 33 minutes ago, douggg said: Doug I already explained to you that the vision of the four beasts in Dan 7 was during the reign of Belshazzar -the last king of Babylon. This is important to understand because his kingdom was coming to an end soon. Daniel was shown who was coming "after" this last king of Babylon - Those four kings whom are of importance are mentioned; 1. Darius of the Mede's (Lion), 2. The fourth king of Persia over the Persians(Bear), 3. Alexander over Greecia (Leopard), 4. The little horn ruling over the end time kingdom (FP) That's the four kings mentioned. There were other kingdoms before them you have to take into account and not dismiss their existence as as ex world rulers.... eg Egypt, Assyria and Babylon. We have to put the scriptures together. It's given a little here and a little there. Quote You need to get away from that idea that there are 8 kingdoms. There are only four kingdoms. The ten horns, ten kings, arise out of the fourth kingdom. Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. In Revelation there are seven kingdoms (seven heads) The last head has ten horns (ten kings). Yes they arise out of the fourth kingdom mentioned in Daniel 7, but Daniel is only mentioning those last four 'in that vision'. The fourth beast in Daniel is the 7th kingdom in Revelation (7 th head). Same one. There are 7 kingdoms in total that the whore has been ruling over from beginning to end. Revelation puts them all together. When the FP takes rule, the 7th kingdom will morph into an eighth kingdom, meaning it came out of the 7th kingdom. Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth , and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. There is no 8 heads on the beast in Revelation 13 because the eighth comes out of the 7th. It's of the same kingdom but changes it's nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted July 30, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sister said: That's the four kings mentioned. There were other kingdoms before them you have to take into account and not dismiss their existence as as ex world rulers.... eg Egypt, Assyria and Babylon. There is no reason from the text of Daniel 7, to include Egypt and Assyria. You are only doing that to make the interpretation of the 7 kings in Revelation 17:10 as being 7 kingdoms work. But if you leave Egypt and Assyria out, and stick with the ten kings and the little horn person as being of the fourth empire,the Roman Empire, the 7 kings of Revelation 17:10 work without reshaping the text to be kingdoms. 1 hour ago, Sister said: The last head has ten horns (ten kings). Yes they arise out of the fourth kingdom mentioned in Daniel 7, but Daniel is only mentioning those last four 'in that vision'. The fourth beast in Daniel is the 7th kingdom in Revelation (7 th head). Same one. Okay, if you want to say the ten horns are on the 7th head; that is, the ten kings are associated with the 7th king, the little horn, both of which are associated with the fourth kingdom, the Roman Empire. It is not meaning a 7th kingdom, though. It is not until Revelation 13, that the 7th king, the little horn person is mortally wounded and comes back to life as the 8th king the beast. And having become the beast, the ten horns have their crowns to indicate they rule with him, as him being dictator of the EU, because in Revelation 17:17 they turn their kingdom over to him. Edited July 30, 2019 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted July 30, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sister said: There are 7 kingdoms in total that the whore has been ruling over from beginning to end. Revelation puts them all together. When the FP takes rule, the 7th kingdom will morph into an eighth kingdom, meaning it came out of the 7th kingdom. The whore is riding the beast. Differently, the seven heads are part of the beast. The false prophet is not mortally wounded and comes back to life. He comes out the earth, born in Israel. The false prophet doesn't rule as a King. He is a false prophet, claiming to be Elijah. __________________________________________________________________________________ Okay, the point you are missing is that the first beast in Revelation 13 represents both a kingdom and a person. The kingdom is the kingdom of the person. The kingdom is the EU in its final form. The person is the come back to life king 7, the little horn person. There is no morphoring of a 7th kingdom into an eighth kingdom. What is the 7th kingdom in your view that morphs into an eighth kingdom? Edited July 30, 2019 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted July 30, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2019 48 minutes ago, douggg said: There is no reason from the text of Daniel 7, to include Egypt and Assyria. There is a reason because those two empires have already come and gone and Babylon is about to be conquered soon. Why talk about what's past? It's about what's coming next. Quote You are only doing that to make the interpretation of the 7 kings in Revelation 17:10 as being 7 kingdoms work. They do work. Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted July 30, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, douggg said: It is not until Revelation 13, that the 7th king, the little horn person is mortally wounded and comes back to life as the 8th king the beast. And having become the beast, the ten horns have their crowns to indicate they rule with him, as him being dictator of the EU, because in Revelation 17:17 they turn their kingdom over to him. Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. One of the kingdoms (heads) was wounded (weakened), not speaking of a particular king, but the kingdom in which the little horn comes out of. This kingdom regains it's full strength back and when it does, it goes full force for this little horn to come up out of them and wax great. Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. Daniel 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. He doesn't get killed and come back to life, but prospers until his end. Daniel 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. Edited July 30, 2019 by Sister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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