Question concerning the beast

[douggg]

6 hours ago, Sister said:

King Neb is already gone and this vision does not concern him as God has already dealt with him.  Now he will deal with Darius and humble him also.

The visions always come before the changes occur.  This is because God testifies beforehand that he knows what's going to happen.  No point testifying after the fact, that's not what a prophecy is.  The dream of Daniel is the prophecy.

Okay, we are talking about Daniel 7, which we disagree on who is the lion beast coming out of the sea, that Kingdom and king.

You point is that at the time of the Daniel 7 vision, Nebuchadnezzar's Babylonian kingdom has passed, so the lion does not refer to Babylon, nor Nebuchadnezzar.    If I understand you correctly.

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What I think you are missing is this, and why the lion beast is referring to the Babylonian kingdom and Nebuchadnezzar - the bottom line objective of Daniel 7 is the everlasting Kingdom of God becoming the ruling Kingdom over all the nations here on earth.

Which is why it is talking about the one like the son of man, given a kingdom that will have no end, and all peoples, nations, and languages shall serve Him, in Daniel 7:14.    Speaking about Jesus of course.    The objective of the Kingdom of God carries through Daniel 7 to Daniel 7:27.

So with the Kingdom of God the major bottomline objective in Daniel 7 and in Daniel 2, to be consistent with Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonian kingdom in the Daniel 2 dream - the lion in Daniel 7 is the Babylonian Empire and the king - Nebuchadnezzar.

Although as you have rightly pointed out, the vision in Daniel 7 takes place during the Darius the Mede rule.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Sister]

13 minutes ago, douggg said:

Okay, we are talking about Daniel 7, which we disagree on who is the lion beast coming out of the sea, that Kingdom and king.

You point is that at the time of the Daniel 7 vision, Nebuchadnezzar's Babylonian kingdom has passed, so the lion does not refer to Babylon, nor Nebuchadnezzar.    If I understand you correctly.

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Hello again Douggg

Not quite.  At the time of the Daniel 7 vision, Babylon is still ruling - not through King Nebuchadnezzar, but his offspring.  And yes, the vision of the first beast (Lion who's wings were clipped) is not referring to Nebuchadnezzar first king of Babylon who has come and gone, but is referring to Darius the Mede who will conquer Babylon's last king Belshazzar.  The vision was given to Daniel "early" at the start of Belshazzar's reign showing that Darius the Mede was coming in the next few years or so and who was coming after him etc.

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What I think you are missing is this, and why the lion beast is referring to the Babylonian kingdom and Nebuchadnezzar - the bottom line objective of Daniel 7 is the everlasting Kingdom of God becoming the ruling Kingdom over all the nations here on earth.

Which is why it is talking about the one like the son of man, given a kingdom that will have no end, and all peoples, nations, and languages shall serve Him, in Daniel 7:14.    Speaking about Jesus of course.    The objective of the Kingdom of God carries through Daniel 7 to Daniel 7:27.

So with the Kingdom of God the major bottomline objective in Daniel 7 and in Daniel 2, to be consistent with Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonian kingdom in the Daniel 2 dream - the lion in Daniel 7 is the Babylonian Empire and the king - Nebuchadnezzar.

Although as you have rightly pointed out, the vision in Daniel 7 takes place during the Darius the Mede rule.

 

The two visions in Dan ch 2 & 7 correspond still.  Chapter 7 just gives the details of those particular kings who will conquer.  Darius the Mede conquered Babylon & Cyrus the Persian joined the Mede's. (the arms and chest of silver).

The bear however is not referring to Cyrus the Persian, but the fourth king of the Persians as mentioned in Daniel 11.  During his days, his kingdom will be conquered by Alexander the great.

  Daniel 11:1   Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him.

  Daniel 11:2   And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.

(see Dan 7:5)  It said that the bear had three ribs in it's mouth.  The explanation of who this king is - is above.  The three ribs in it's mouth signified the three kings before him had already past.  This bear is the fourth king of Persia and the last one who was reigning with the Mede's. 

 

  Daniel 11:3   And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.

(Alexander)

  Daniel 11:4   And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

 

The everlasting kingdom of God will not take rule until these kingdoms run their course.  For them back then it is future, but for us now it is history.  The last kingdom is here, only the 10 kings have not received their crowns yet.

 

[douggg]

3 hours ago, Sister said:

Not quite.  At the time of the Daniel 7 vision, Babylon is still ruling - not through King Nebuchadnezzar, but his offspring.

okay, my mistake.  

1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.

3 hours ago, Sister said:

And yes, the vision of the first beast (Lion who's wings were clipped) is not referring to Nebuchadnezzar first king of Babylon who has come and gone, but is referring to Darius the Mede who will conquer Babylon's last king Belshazzar.  The vision was given to Daniel "early" at the start of Belshazzar's reign showing that Darius the Mede was coming in the next few years or so and who was coming after him etc.

okay, I had misunderstood you.   And upon re-looking at Daniel 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.  

I am going to agree with you -on that first of those four kings not being Nebuchadnezzar but Darius the Mede.  Good job in making your case.

As a kingdom, to you, the lion was the Babylonian Empire?

 

 

Edited July 27, 2019 by douggg

[Sister]

4 minutes ago, douggg said:

okay, my mistake.  

1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.

okay, I had misunderstood you.   And upon re-looking at Daniel 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.  

I am going to agree with you -on that first of those four kings not being Nebuchadnezzar but Darius the Mede.  Good job in making your case.

 

Hi douggg

Praise the Lord.  Lets rejoice!

[Sister]

24 minutes ago, douggg said:

As a kingdom, to you, the lion was the Babylonian Empire?

No, the lion was the leader of the Medes (Darius).  That man.

[douggg]

55 minutes ago, Sister said:

No, the lion was the leader of the Medes (Darius).  That man.

I understand your rationale of the first of the four kings coming out of the earth being Darius in Daniel 7:17.    But not the lion with eagles wings coming out of the sea as being anything other than the Babylonian kingdom.

Coming out of the earth in Daniel 7:17 would apply to kings.

Coming out of the sea Daniel 7:3 would apply to kingdoms.   Daniel 7:23, fourth beast being the fourth kingdom to support my rationale.

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Would you agree that in Daniel 7:4, the lion with the eagles wings is the Babylonian Empire.   But when the wings are plucked it transitions to the Medes-Persians time - with as a man referring to Darius the mede being this part....

4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

Edited July 27, 2019 by douggg

[Sister]

11 hours ago, douggg said:

I understand your rationale of the first of the four kings coming out of the earth being Darius in Daniel 7:17.    But not the lion with eagles wings coming out of the sea as being anything other than the Babylonian kingdom.

Coming out of the earth in Daniel 7:17 would apply to kings.

Coming out of the sea Daniel 7:3 would apply to kingdoms.   Daniel 7:23, fourth beast being the fourth kingdom to support my rationale.

  

Daniel 7:17   These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

Daniel 7:3   And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

Yes your rationale is correct.

Beasts that come out of the sea are kingdoms.  Kingdoms consist of peoples, multitudes, nations and tongues, as explained in Rev 17:15.

Revelation 17:15   And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Beasts that come out of the earth are singular.  Referring to a particular man, a leader, a king.  The one person who is in charge of that kingdom is always referred to as coming out of the earth. 

Beasts that come out of the sea are kingdoms (empires), consisting of peoples who all together are under that kingdom.  The king, his captains, his armies, his civilians.  When they come out of the sea, it mean's the kingdom as a whole, and not referring to one particular person. 

Dan 7:3 is speaking about these kingdoms that will arise to power.  The kingdom of the Mede's was already existing, but at a certain time rose to power.  Same as the Kingdom of the Persians, they became great also and ruled with the Mede's, and then Grecia after them, and then Rome.  All came out of the sea.  All these kingdoms existed already but not so great until given power.

But in Dan 7:4 it speaks specifically of a man, one man.  The nature of that man who leads that kingdom.  Speaking of the king himself, and then if you read through, it goes on to the next king, the king of Persia, then Greecia, then Rome (the little horn). 

Dan 7:17 is the interpretation of the king, the individual.  He is earthborn, but his kingdom is from below.  All kingdoms are from below, but God's kingdom is from above.

The kingdoms have to come out of the sea first - exist before their leader can make it great.  When that leader comes, he comes out of the earth.  God wrote it this way so we can know the difference of who he's speaking of....the kingdom as a whole or it's leader.

There are four particular kings that will come after Babylon finishes and these kings, God wants to mention because they all lead to the last king - the little horn, the Son of Perdition who will be the final king ruling when Christ comes.

So when you go to Rev 13, the first beast that rises out of the sea having seven heads and ten horns, we know he is speaking about kingdoms.  Seven heads = 7 kingdoms.  The last head (7th) will have 10 men ruling "as kings" over them.  Not just one leader but 10 working together and controlling that empire.  The second beast that rises out of the earth is speaking about a man.  He will lead that kingdom, that last head.

Edited July 28, 2019 by Sister

[douggg]

44 minutes ago, Sister said:

So when you go to Rev 13, the first beast that rises out of the sea having seven heads and ten horns, we know he is speaking about kingdoms.  Seven heads = 7 kingdoms.  The last head (7th) will have 10 men ruling "as kings" over them.  Not just one leader but 10 working together and controlling that empire.  The second beast that rises out of the earth is speaking about a man.  He will lead that kingdom, that last head.

The beast coming out of the sea in Revelation 13 represents that the beast is a kingdom, agreed.

But that beast also represents a person who has become the 8th king, the beast of Revelation 17:11.

And the world will worship him, those who's names are not written in the Lamb's book of Life.

 The 7 heads are 7 kings, not kingdoms themselves, of that kingdom coming out of the sea.     6 are historic to us.

One of those heads, in Revelation 13, one king has been mortally wounded and healed, right before the 42 months begin.      It is referring to the little horn 7th king.

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The second beast coming out of the earth is a person, who is not a king, but a false prophet.   The second beast will come out Israel.   Not the end times Roman Empire.

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The ten kings rule as a group over the end times Roman Empire, the EU it appears.     Over them is the one king, the little horn person.

They all are in power before the 7 years begin.

Once the 7 years begin, and the person has become the beast in the middle part of the 7 years, the ten kings hand their kingdom, the EU, over to him to rule as dictator.

Edited July 28, 2019 by douggg

[douggg]

On 4/3/2019 at 3:26 PM, Shilohsfoal said:

Now here is the question.

Why do you believe these two christians will be torturing and killing Europians and other christians thousands of miles from Jerusalem in Europe?

I can answer.   But some of your premise has to be refined.    The 42 months are for the occupancy of Jerusalem, Revelation 11:2.   The 1260 days is the time of prophesying by the two witnesses, Revelation 11:3.

The two witnesses defend themselves against any man who tries to hurt them, by fire coming out of their mouth.    So they are not killing persons, except in their immediate vicinity, like some one trying to shoot them with a gun for example.

Now, as far as the plagues, in Revelation 11:6.     Those will not take place until the Abomination of Desolation is setup in the temple, and the Jews start fleeing out of Judea into the mountains*.     On day 1185 of the 7 years.

The purpose of the plagues is to keep the beast busy with troubles going on around the world - as the Jews are fleeing.    Keep in mind that the world will be thinking the beast has superpowers because he had just come back to life, appearing to have overcome death,  and will be looking to him for help.   

The plagues will go on for 75 days, when the beast finally is able to killed the two witnesses on day 1260 of the 7 years.     That will end the window of assisted fleeing by the two witnesses.     Getting out of Jerusalem, from persecution by the beast, will be much harder after that.

* How do I know this?   Because in Revelation 12, the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6, the woman is in the wilderness.    So it is by the Jews fleeing, that they go to the wilderness, the mountains, where they are protected and cared for.

Edited July 29, 2019 by douggg

[choir loft]

On 4/3/2019 at 4:26 PM, Shilohsfoal said:

This question is only for those who believe the Pope,or Europe is the beast.

According to scripture ,the two witnesses of Christ occupy Jerusalem (where thier Lord was crucified) for 42 months.During this time they will be torturing and killing people.After the 1260 day occupation, the beast will ascend out of the bottomless pitt and kill them.

Keep in mind.Those of the nations who kill these two witnesses of Christ will celebrate in the streets of Jerusalem,because they persecute them

https://biblehub.com/revelation/11-10.htm

Now here is the question.

Why do you believe these two christians will be torturing and killing Europians and other christians thousands of miles from Jerusalem in Europe?

There are specific guidelines to accurate interpretation of prophetic scripture.   

Sometimes a reader will simply fasten upon whatever seems good to them - whatever tickles their ears and minds.   This usually leads to error because these same people assume their misconstrued fantasies are truthful renderings of Biblical predictions.   Usually they're wrong as the progress of time inevitably proves.

One of the principles of correct Biblical interpretation is that figures of animals usually represent systems, governments or religions.   They do not, as a rule, represent individuals unless scripture itself says so directly.   For example, the great statue of Daniel 2 is properly rendered as governmental systems or empires.  The Bible interprets itself when it says the head of gold represents Nebucadnezzar.  The remainder of the statue represents future empires.

Another principle of correct Biblical interpretation is to remember that all prophecy holds Israel and/or Messiah as its principle focus.  Again referring to the statue of Daniel 2, the dream ignores Chinese dynasties, trade empires of ancient Africa or the developing economies in South America.  The empires of Daniel 2 and later chapters all directly or indirectly touch Israel.

The question above concerning the two witnesses takes a humanistic point of view and misinterprets scripture.   The beast that defeats the two witnesses is a governmental system, not a man and not a demonic figure.   The beastly governmental system arises out of the pit.  It is not indicative of Godzilla or a winged gargoyle.

The two witnesses of Revelation 11 have the principle function of prophecy or preaching.  Scripture nowhere says they will torture anybody, but will instead kill those who attempt to harm them.  The Bible nowhere says they will execute vengeance upon people thousands of miles from the Holy City.  Neither God nor His agents torture.   God kills.  God does not torture and Jesus is not the commandant of a Nazi S&M dungeon in the bowels of the earth.  There is absolutely no evidence of this anywhere in the Bible.

The question of why these witnesses will kill is already answered in the Bible.  They will kill those who attempt to harm them.

Here we have an example of deliberate misrepresentation of scripture.   The ministry of the two witnesses is local to Jerusalem.  The two witnesses kill to defend themselves.  They torture nobody.  The real question is to ask what they are preaching (prophesying).  

In order to raise so much hatred, all a man has to do these days is to speak against trends; national policy favoring corporations rather than persons, corruption in business and government, political correctness, hedonistic society, suggesting women are capable of nothing but flummery and hysteria, using the word sin to describe what it is men and women do, the popularity of endless unjust warfare, stating that it's a violation of the first commandment to give one's allegiance to a flag or government instead of to God, opposing protestant church leaders and so on.

The question posed by the lead post is slanted and opposed to truthful search of the Bible insofar as it ignores the principles of scholarly interpretation and objective consideration.  Instead an attitude opposed to the Most High is substituted.   Humility and truth is not the writer's goal.  The goal of deliberate misinterpretation of the Bible is subversion of the Word of God and destruction of faith in it.  

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

 

Edited July 29, 2019 by choir loft