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Question concerning the beast


Shilohsfoal

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On 8/16/2019 at 1:57 PM, dhchristian said:

And my point is that demonic Spirits require a live host, and that is proven in Rev 16:13-14, As well as throughout scripture,  that the beast, the false prophet and the dragon are men possessed, Yes they have a kingdom element to them, Beasts are Kingdoms, But these three are individuals as well. 

On 8/16/2019 at 1:57 PM, dhchristian said:

 

I agree with you in part, which is to say demons sometimes require a live host.  

Not always, however, as in the dialogue between God and Lucifer in the book of Job.   One of the common Protestant misunderstandings is that demons are everywhere and that they always inhabit humans.  They aren't and they don't.   This misconception negatively infects interpretation of scripture.  Fallen spirits of all types are finite creatures and not capable of some of the fantastic powers and abilities attributed to them by Hollywood and Protestant Christians.  It can be argued that unclean spirits, different entities altogether, prefer biological hosts, but do not require them.  The subject is much more convoluted and detailed than scripture allows us to study.  Catholics worship various tribes of fallen spirits even as Protestants find them disagreeable to a small extent.  Both honor them and appreciate them for their entertainment value not realizing at all how terribly dangerous they are.   

Although I agree with you on the possibility of demonic influence upon humans it ought not be automatically considered.   Unless the Bible specifically says a human is demonically inspired as in Acts 16 we must consider otherwise.   Instead, the Bible states human organizations, systems and governments are populated with people of sinful hearts and corrupted minds - people who know not God and are infuriated at the very thought of His Law and His interference in human affairs.  I think we can agree on this point as well.  You write the same thing with fewer words.  

Sadly it seems that this is where we are as a nation today.   Many are obsessed with political agendas of self-gratification.  Any suggestion that God might be opposed to this attitude is hateful to them.  Are they demonically inspired?   Mad they may be when they murder their unborn young, but I doubt a demon had anything to do with a decision motivated by convenience.  The book of Ezra warned the men of Israel against taking pagan wives.   How much more does God's anger burn against men who take men as their wedded spouse?   Bottom line is that God's purpose is opposed by men and women who have corrupted their minds and hearts to satisfy their appetites.   Such a person doesn't need a demon to tell them how to think or act.

Getting down to specifics I call your attention to Revelation 17 purely as a small study or exercise.....

Verses 1-5 describe a human personality - Babylon the Great.  The figure is said to be a woman who has prostituted herself to and sits upon (rules over or acts as leader?) a scarlet beast.   Cardinals of the Catholic church dress themselves in scarlet and purple and adorn themselves with expensive trappings.  They participate in sexual immorality and all sorts of abominations including persecution of the saints in verse 6.  

Verse 7 says the beast WAS, but is no more - meaning it did not exist in the time of John as he wrote Revelation.  The name given to the beast is Babylon - an actual city and nation and system.  Future destruction (in the years to come from John's point of view) is predicted for the religious system.  In prophecy, the figure of a horn is used to imply an authority figure as in the kings mentioned in verse 9-14.  Those horns or kings represent actual persons.  They're specific identity can be verified, but that argument would take much more space than I prefer to allow here.   In summary, the figures of humans interact or are a part of a greater organization or religious system known as the scarlet beast.  I believe you agree with this as well.

There are other beasts and the narrative seems to suggest at times that some of them have human characteristics similar to our modern invention of the Corporation.  Each instance ought to be examined for its own position in terms of context and what its' saying in reference to the big picture.   One cannot automatically assume demonic influence over humans when humans are entirely capable of great evil without hellish inspiration.  I'm sure you agree with this point as well.  

I agree with you on your observation of the kingdom element bearing in mind any leader is part of a whole - organization, nation or system.   He cannot function without its support.  Individuals, as in the Revelation 17 discussion above function, albeit wickedly, within these anti-Christ systems.   As a final example, can anyone argue against the idea that the leaders of 1930's Germany exercised their authority outside the hideous system they constructed?  You are on point when you write men are possessed, but are they possessed by spiritual entities or by fanatic political ideology they've absorbed from the system?  

Some might argue that certain movements and persons in America today fit the description of mindless fanatics quite well.  For example, is Nancy Pelosi possessed?  She may act like it at times, but on the whole I doubt it.  Is POTUS possessed because he is a habitual liar?  I think not.  American politicians being what they are, some of them could probably give the devil a lesson or two on how to manipulate people.    But I digress.......  

My personal philosophy about demons is summed up in the following little story:

One of my favorite historic dialogues happened between Army General Ulysses S. Grant and his subordinates when he took command of the entire Union army in the summer of 1863.   His first official act of duty was to assemble a meeting of generals under his command.   One by one they complained to him about being thrashed by Robert E. Lee's Confederate army.   Grant listened until he'd had enough and told them all to shut up.  "All I'm hearing from you is Bobby Lee did this and Bobby Lee did that.   I'm tired of hearing about what Bobby Lee did to us.   From now on I want to hear about what we're going to do to him."  Grant's army went on to clean Bobby Lee's clock.

That's my point of view exactly.  I'm tired of hearing 'the devil did this or that'.   I'm tired of misinterpretations of scripture that put the devil in charge of history.   I want to hear about what the saints, as directed by Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as captain of us all, are going to do to the world system.  

OUR GOD is going to bag the whole crowd and clean things out from top to bottom.  I know we agree on this too.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited by choir loft
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18 minutes ago, choir loft said:

My personal philosophy about demons is summed up in the following little story:

We agree more than we disagree. My point to you is that the individual is responsible for society, the man of Sin is an individual, much like U.S. Grant in your story that stands up and influences the system around them for Good in some cases, but also for evil. This becomes the spirit of the age. So For example we can have a positive Christian spirit influencing the age and we may have a Golden age, as we did after WWII, when we had a revival due to the wickedness witnessed in the war. Or we can have a demonic spirit of the age such as came to fruition in the 60's Which also saw the horrors of war, but instead of a spiritual revival (Arguably some did see spiritual revival) we saw a demonic rebellious spirit enter in. Those boomers are now the leaders of this kingdom largely, and this rebellious spirit is at the heart of it, the spirit of the age. 

Demonic Spirits oppress individuals, they in turn influence Society, which in turn opens up more souls to be hosts to demonic spirits, and so the beast system grows. This is Peter Berger's dialectic, although he did not apply this to demonology or spirituality per se. He was just observing social structures, and how they take on a life of their own. 

I Personally believe that Rev. 17 Is describing a different beast from the one in rev. 13. One that is similar, but not the same, a fourth beast of revelation. This beast is empowered not by a demonic Spirit possessing a man like the first three, but rather is a fallen angel ascending from the bottomless pit, a whole different class of demonic being. He is not Human, nor does he require a host, but has his own Body, and is capable of killing the two witnesses who no human can harm (rev. 11:5), but this fallen angel can kill them. This sort of Spirit being Was, and is not now, and is to come... if you see what I mean.  

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2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

We agree more than we disagree. My point to you is that the individual is responsible for society, the man of Sin is an individual, much like U.S. Grant in your story that stands up and influences the system around them for Good in some cases, but also for evil. This becomes the spirit of the age. So For example we can have a positive Christian spirit influencing the age and we may have a Golden age, as we did after WWII, when we had a revival due to the wickedness witnessed in the war. Or we can have a demonic spirit of the age such as came to fruition in the 60's Which also saw the horrors of war, but instead of a spiritual revival (Arguably some did see spiritual revival) we saw a demonic rebellious spirit enter in. Those boomers are now the leaders of this kingdom largely, and this rebellious spirit is at the heart of it, the spirit of the age. 

Demonic Spirits oppress individuals, they in turn influence Society, which in turn opens up more souls to be hosts to demonic spirits, and so the beast system grows. This is Peter Berger's dialectic, although he did not apply this to demonology or spirituality per se. He was just observing social structures, and how they take on a life of their own. 

I Personally believe that Rev. 17 Is describing a different beast from the one in rev. 13. One that is similar, but not the same, a fourth beast of revelation. This beast is empowered not by a demonic Spirit possessing a man like the first three, but rather is a fallen angel ascending from the bottomless pit, a whole different class of demonic being. He is not Human, nor does he require a host, but has his own Body, and is capable of killing the two witnesses who no human can harm (rev. 11:5), but this fallen angel can kill them. This sort of Spirit being Was, and is not now, and is to come... if you see what I mean.  

Or we can have a demonic spirit of the age such as came to fruition in the 60's

Getting off topic a bit here I suppose, but Google 1968 and see what comes up.   Select "what happened in the year..."

I once did a quick study on 1968 for a group presentation.  I was shocked at what I discovered.    A NY Times reporter was quoted as saying the year was, "one g d thing after another."

It was a paradigm shift in global events from which we have never recovered.   If there is now a vile spirit of the age, I think it was introduced that year.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

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How have you come up with the absolute conclusion that all the scriptures you provided are for the end times? 

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On 7/29/2019 at 12:29 PM, choir loft said:

There are specific guidelines to accurate interpretation of prophetic scripture.   

Sometimes a reader will simply fasten upon whatever seems good to them - whatever tickles their ears and minds.   This usually leads to error because these same people assume their misconstrued fantasies are truthful renderings of Biblical predictions.   Usually they're wrong as the progress of time inevitably proves.

One of the principles of correct Biblical interpretation is that figures of animals usually represent systems, governments or religions.   They do not, as a rule, represent individuals unless scripture itself says so directly.   For example, the great statue of Daniel 2 is properly rendered as governmental systems or empires.  The Bible interprets itself when it says the head of gold represents Nebucadnezzar.  The remainder of the statue represents future empires.

Another principle of correct Biblical interpretation is to remember that all prophecy holds Israel and/or Messiah as its principle focus.  Again referring to the statue of Daniel 2, the dream ignores Chinese dynasties, trade empires of ancient Africa or the developing economies in South America.  The empires of Daniel 2 and later chapters all directly or indirectly touch Israel.

The question above concerning the two witnesses takes a humanistic point of view and misinterprets scripture.   The beast that defeats the two witnesses is a governmental system, not a man and not a demonic figure.   The beastly governmental system arises out of the pit.  It is not indicative of Godzilla or a winged gargoyle.

The two witnesses of Revelation 11 have the principle function of prophecy or preaching.  Scripture nowhere says they will torture anybody, but will instead kill those who attempt to harm them.  The Bible nowhere says they will execute vengeance upon people thousands of miles from the Holy City.  Neither God nor His agents torture.   God kills.  God does not torture and Jesus is not the commandant of a Nazi S&M dungeon in the bowels of the earth.  There is absolutely no evidence of this anywhere in the Bible.

The question of why these witnesses will kill is already answered in the Bible.  They will kill those who attempt to harm them.

Here we have an example of deliberate misrepresentation of scripture.   The ministry of the two witnesses is local to Jerusalem.  The two witnesses kill to defend themselves.  They torture nobody.  The real question is to ask what they are preaching (prophesying).  

In order to raise so much hatred, all a man has to do these days is to speak against trends; national policy favoring corporations rather than persons, corruption in business and government, political correctness, hedonistic society, suggesting women are capable of nothing but flummery and hysteria, using the word sin to describe what it is men and women do, the popularity of endless unjust warfare, stating that it's a violation of the first commandment to give one's allegiance to a flag or government instead of to God, opposing protestant church leaders and so on.

The question posed by the lead post is slanted and opposed to truthful search of the Bible insofar as it ignores the principles of scholarly interpretation and objective consideration.  Instead an attitude opposed to the Most High is substituted.   Humility and truth is not the writer's goal.  The goal of deliberate misinterpretation of the Bible is subversion of the Word of God and destruction of faith in it.  

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

 

Actually the bible says the two witnesses "torment"people.

 

https://biblehub.com/revelation/11-10.htm

 

My apologies, God says the two witnesses "torment"people.It appears this torment is indiscriminate as well.If you cause a drought as these two witnesses do ,you hurt everyone and everything alive .Women,children, even animals will thirst.

https://biblehub.com/revelation/11-6.htm

 

Theres no telling just how many babies these two witnesses kill while they are striking the earth with plagues as often as they want.

I would expect the peoples of the earth will be grateful they are killed.

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16 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Actually the bible says the two witnesses "torment"people.

 

https://biblehub.com/revelation/11-10.htm

 

My apologies, God says the two witnesses "torment"people.It appears this torment is indiscriminate as well.If you cause a drought as these two witnesses do ,you hurt everyone and everything alive .Women,children, even animals will thirst.

https://biblehub.com/revelation/11-6.htm

 

Theres no telling just how many babies these two witnesses kill while they are striking the earth with plagues as often as they want.

I would expect the peoples of the earth will be grateful they are killed.

Again the Bible says the two witnesses will kill those who seek to torment them.   What sort of torment can a baby provide?

You are pressing an extremist interpretation of scripture here.

Again, the Bible insists that the ways of man are not the ways of God.  He wounds and heals as is His good pleasure.  Unfortunately our present society is vehemently supportive of hedonistic self-gratification and hubris.  We cannot and will not acknowledge the just ways of God - especially when these ways contradict our human passions arrogance and perversions.

For this do we deserve the judgment that is coming upon us - yes and may already have arrived.....

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

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5 hours ago, choir loft said:

Again the Bible says the two witnesses will kill those who seek to torment them.   What sort of torment can a baby provide?

You are pressing an extremist interpretation of scripture here.

Again, the Bible insists that the ways of man are not the ways of God.  He wounds and heals as is His good pleasure.  Unfortunately our present society is vehemently supportive of hedonistic self-gratification and hubris.  We cannot and will not acknowledge the just ways of God - especially when these ways contradict our human passions arrogance and perversions.

For this do we deserve the judgment that is coming upon us - yes and may already have arrived.....

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Look,you can,not cause a drought in an area without effecting everyone in that area.You can,not poison water without poisoning everyone who drinks it.Not just men,,but wimen and children too.

The people who attempt to kill the witnesses are killed after fire comes out of thier mouths.But that has nothing to do with the severe drought they cause.

 

Evetyone will cheer when these two witnesses are killed because they torment people just as the bible says.

Edited by Shilohsfoal
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On 8/18/2019 at 12:59 PM, dhchristian said:

We agree more than we disagree. My point to you is that the individual is responsible for society, the man of Sin is an individual, much like U.S. Grant in your story that stands up and influences the system around them for Good in some cases, but also for evil. This becomes the spirit of the age. So For example we can have a positive Christian spirit influencing the age and we may have a Golden age, as we did after WWII, when we had a revival due to the wickedness witnessed in the war. Or we can have a demonic spirit of the age such as came to fruition in the 60's Which also saw the horrors of war, but instead of a spiritual revival (Arguably some did see spiritual revival) we saw a demonic rebellious spirit enter in. Those boomers are now the leaders of this kingdom largely, and this rebellious spirit is at the heart of it, the spirit of the age. 

Demonic Spirits oppress individuals, they in turn influence Society, which in turn opens up more souls to be hosts to demonic spirits, and so the beast system grows. This is Peter Berger's dialectic, although he did not apply this to demonology or spirituality per se. He was just observing social structures, and how they take on a life of their own. 

I Personally believe that Rev. 17 Is describing a different beast from the one in rev. 13. One that is similar, but not the same, a fourth beast of revelation. This beast is empowered not by a demonic Spirit possessing a man like the first three, but rather is a fallen angel ascending from the bottomless pit, a whole different class of demonic being. He is not Human, nor does he require a host, but has his own Body, and is capable of killing the two witnesses who no human can harm (rev. 11:5), but this fallen angel can kill them. This sort of Spirit being Was, and is not now, and is to come... if you see what I mean.  

 I agree in part. The "fallen angel" will be Satan himself.  He knows it will be his final try and he is going to go all out. Rev. 17 is talking about the devil's kingdoms of the past, present (for John) and future  that tried and will try to destroy Israel. It shows that the devil has no new tricks: he tried through   Egypt, then through  Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome in John's day, and in our future, the Rev. 13 Beast and his kingdom.  He will call for the nations of the world to assist. One boy in Israel that heard from God said that 70 nations will come against Israel at Armageddon. My guess is, every nation that has a standing army will send most of their troops. It still won't work! They will be fighting against God. 

My guess is, the  nations today  of the land areas of these ancient Empires will be the kingdom of the Beast: Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Saudi, Lebanon, Probably Turkey, and in the end, all the 'Stan nations from the east will join in. 

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34 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

 I agree in part. The "fallen angel" will be Satan himself.  He knows it will be his final try and he is going to go all out. Rev. 17 is talking about the devil's kingdoms of the past, present (for John) and future  that tried and will try to destroy Israel. It shows that the devil has no new tricks: he tried through   Egypt, then through  Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome in John's day, and in our future, the Rev. 13 Beast and his kingdom.  He will call for the nations of the world to assist. One boy in Israel that heard from God said that 70 nations will come against Israel at Armageddon. My guess is, every nation that has a standing army will send most of their troops. It still won't work! They will be fighting against God. 

My guess is, the  nations today  of the land areas of these ancient Empires will be the kingdom of the Beast: Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Saudi, Lebanon, Probably Turkey, and in the end, all the 'Stan nations from the east will join in. 

It's my understanding that entity comes out of the Abyss/bottomless pit.     Satan is not presently in the Abyss..

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48 minutes ago, other one said:

It's my understanding that entity comes out of the Abyss/bottomless pit.     Satan is not presently in the Abyss..

He is free to come and go as he wants.

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