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Shilohsfoal

Question concerning the beast

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18 minutes ago, choir loft said:

My personal philosophy about demons is summed up in the following little story:

We agree more than we disagree. My point to you is that the individual is responsible for society, the man of Sin is an individual, much like U.S. Grant in your story that stands up and influences the system around them for Good in some cases, but also for evil. This becomes the spirit of the age. So For example we can have a positive Christian spirit influencing the age and we may have a Golden age, as we did after WWII, when we had a revival due to the wickedness witnessed in the war. Or we can have a demonic spirit of the age such as came to fruition in the 60's Which also saw the horrors of war, but instead of a spiritual revival (Arguably some did see spiritual revival) we saw a demonic rebellious spirit enter in. Those boomers are now the leaders of this kingdom largely, and this rebellious spirit is at the heart of it, the spirit of the age. 

Demonic Spirits oppress individuals, they in turn influence Society, which in turn opens up more souls to be hosts to demonic spirits, and so the beast system grows. This is Peter Berger's dialectic, although he did not apply this to demonology or spirituality per se. He was just observing social structures, and how they take on a life of their own. 

I Personally believe that Rev. 17 Is describing a different beast from the one in rev. 13. One that is similar, but not the same, a fourth beast of revelation. This beast is empowered not by a demonic Spirit possessing a man like the first three, but rather is a fallen angel ascending from the bottomless pit, a whole different class of demonic being. He is not Human, nor does he require a host, but has his own Body, and is capable of killing the two witnesses who no human can harm (rev. 11:5), but this fallen angel can kill them. This sort of Spirit being Was, and is not now, and is to come... if you see what I mean.  

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

We agree more than we disagree. My point to you is that the individual is responsible for society, the man of Sin is an individual, much like U.S. Grant in your story that stands up and influences the system around them for Good in some cases, but also for evil. This becomes the spirit of the age. So For example we can have a positive Christian spirit influencing the age and we may have a Golden age, as we did after WWII, when we had a revival due to the wickedness witnessed in the war. Or we can have a demonic spirit of the age such as came to fruition in the 60's Which also saw the horrors of war, but instead of a spiritual revival (Arguably some did see spiritual revival) we saw a demonic rebellious spirit enter in. Those boomers are now the leaders of this kingdom largely, and this rebellious spirit is at the heart of it, the spirit of the age. 

Demonic Spirits oppress individuals, they in turn influence Society, which in turn opens up more souls to be hosts to demonic spirits, and so the beast system grows. This is Peter Berger's dialectic, although he did not apply this to demonology or spirituality per se. He was just observing social structures, and how they take on a life of their own. 

I Personally believe that Rev. 17 Is describing a different beast from the one in rev. 13. One that is similar, but not the same, a fourth beast of revelation. This beast is empowered not by a demonic Spirit possessing a man like the first three, but rather is a fallen angel ascending from the bottomless pit, a whole different class of demonic being. He is not Human, nor does he require a host, but has his own Body, and is capable of killing the two witnesses who no human can harm (rev. 11:5), but this fallen angel can kill them. This sort of Spirit being Was, and is not now, and is to come... if you see what I mean.  

Or we can have a demonic spirit of the age such as came to fruition in the 60's

Getting off topic a bit here I suppose, but Google 1968 and see what comes up.   Select "what happened in the year..."

I once did a quick study on 1968 for a group presentation.  I was shocked at what I discovered.    A NY Times reporter was quoted as saying the year was, "one g d thing after another."

It was a paradigm shift in global events from which we have never recovered.   If there is now a vile spirit of the age, I think it was introduced that year.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

Edited by choir loft

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On 8/18/2019 at 5:40 PM, choir loft said:
On 8/18/2019 at 2:59 PM, dhchristian said:

We agree more than we disagree. My point to you is that the individual is responsible for society, the man of Sin is an individual, much like U.S. Grant in your story that stands up and influences the system around them for Good in some cases, but also for evil. This becomes the spirit of the age. So For example we can have a positive Christian spirit influencing the age and we may have a Golden age, as we did after WWII, when we had a revival due to the wickedness witnessed in the war. Or we can have a demonic spirit of the age such as came to fruition in the 60's Which also saw the horrors of war, but instead of a spiritual revival (Arguably some did see spiritual revival) we saw a demonic rebellious spirit enter in. Those boomers are now the leaders of this kingdom largely, and this rebellious spirit is at the heart of it, the spirit of the age. 

Demonic Spirits oppress individuals, they in turn influence Society, which in turn opens up more souls to be hosts to demonic spirits, and so the beast system grows. This is Peter Berger's dialectic, although he did not apply this to demonology or spirituality per se. He was just observing social structures, and how they take on a life of their own. 

I Personally believe that Rev. 17 Is describing a different beast from the one in rev. 13. One that is similar, but not the same, a fourth beast of revelation. This beast is empowered not by a demonic Spirit possessing a man like the first three, but rather is a fallen angel ascending from the bottomless pit, a whole different class of demonic being. He is not Human, nor does he require a host, but has his own Body, and is capable of killing the two witnesses who no human can harm (rev. 11:5), but this fallen angel can kill them. This sort of Spirit being Was, and is not now, and is to come... if you see what I mean.  

Or we can have a demonic spirit of the age such as came to fruition in the 60's

Getting off topic a bit here I suppose, but Google 1968 and see what comes up.   Select "what happened in the year..."

I once did a quick study on 1968 for a group presentation.  I was shocked at what I discovered.    A NY Times reporter was quoted as saying the year was, "one g d thing after another."

It was a paradigm shift in global events from which we have never recovered.   If there is now a vile spirit of the age, I think it was introduced that year.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft..

TO ALL 

Matt.24:v.5 - 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.    
We can extend this revelation to those that say: "I am a Christian", like the idolaters, for example, the followers of the Roman Catholic Church, among others, and are deceivers and cannot be called as Christians, they worship and pray to the deads, they invoke their idols inclusive idols of the Apostles of the Lord, to protect them, what is a blaspheme.

Matt.24:v.9-14
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

2Th.4:v.3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

1 Th.4:v.1-2
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

2 Thes.2:v.1-5 & 9-13 
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Revelation 22:v.11-12&15
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Lastly, to finish
Matt.25:v.5-13   -  The door will be finished

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

NOTE:
There were preachers selling oil out of time, and all those who were selling or buying lost their souls.

Luke 13:v.25 

25 When once the Master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 

Revelation 3:v.7-9

7 These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Genesis 7:v.16 -

 Those that entered were male and female; of all creatures they came, as God had commanded Noah. Then the Lord shut him - Noah - in.

They went in as God had commanded and He shut the door from the outside.

 

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Posted (edited)

How have you come up with the absolute conclusion that all the scriptures you provided are for the end times? 

Edited by Gentle-Warrior

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On 7/29/2019 at 12:29 PM, choir loft said:

There are specific guidelines to accurate interpretation of prophetic scripture.   

Sometimes a reader will simply fasten upon whatever seems good to them - whatever tickles their ears and minds.   This usually leads to error because these same people assume their misconstrued fantasies are truthful renderings of Biblical predictions.   Usually they're wrong as the progress of time inevitably proves.

One of the principles of correct Biblical interpretation is that figures of animals usually represent systems, governments or religions.   They do not, as a rule, represent individuals unless scripture itself says so directly.   For example, the great statue of Daniel 2 is properly rendered as governmental systems or empires.  The Bible interprets itself when it says the head of gold represents Nebucadnezzar.  The remainder of the statue represents future empires.

Another principle of correct Biblical interpretation is to remember that all prophecy holds Israel and/or Messiah as its principle focus.  Again referring to the statue of Daniel 2, the dream ignores Chinese dynasties, trade empires of ancient Africa or the developing economies in South America.  The empires of Daniel 2 and later chapters all directly or indirectly touch Israel.

The question above concerning the two witnesses takes a humanistic point of view and misinterprets scripture.   The beast that defeats the two witnesses is a governmental system, not a man and not a demonic figure.   The beastly governmental system arises out of the pit.  It is not indicative of Godzilla or a winged gargoyle.

The two witnesses of Revelation 11 have the principle function of prophecy or preaching.  Scripture nowhere says they will torture anybody, but will instead kill those who attempt to harm them.  The Bible nowhere says they will execute vengeance upon people thousands of miles from the Holy City.  Neither God nor His agents torture.   God kills.  God does not torture and Jesus is not the commandant of a Nazi S&M dungeon in the bowels of the earth.  There is absolutely no evidence of this anywhere in the Bible.

The question of why these witnesses will kill is already answered in the Bible.  They will kill those who attempt to harm them.

Here we have an example of deliberate misrepresentation of scripture.   The ministry of the two witnesses is local to Jerusalem.  The two witnesses kill to defend themselves.  They torture nobody.  The real question is to ask what they are preaching (prophesying).  

In order to raise so much hatred, all a man has to do these days is to speak against trends; national policy favoring corporations rather than persons, corruption in business and government, political correctness, hedonistic society, suggesting women are capable of nothing but flummery and hysteria, using the word sin to describe what it is men and women do, the popularity of endless unjust warfare, stating that it's a violation of the first commandment to give one's allegiance to a flag or government instead of to God, opposing protestant church leaders and so on.

The question posed by the lead post is slanted and opposed to truthful search of the Bible insofar as it ignores the principles of scholarly interpretation and objective consideration.  Instead an attitude opposed to the Most High is substituted.   Humility and truth is not the writer's goal.  The goal of deliberate misinterpretation of the Bible is subversion of the Word of God and destruction of faith in it.  

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

 

Actually the bible says the two witnesses "torment"people.

 

https://biblehub.com/revelation/11-10.htm

 

My apologies, God says the two witnesses "torment"people.It appears this torment is indiscriminate as well.If you cause a drought as these two witnesses do ,you hurt everyone and everything alive .Women,children, even animals will thirst.

https://biblehub.com/revelation/11-6.htm

 

Theres no telling just how many babies these two witnesses kill while they are striking the earth with plagues as often as they want.

I would expect the peoples of the earth will be grateful they are killed.

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16 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Actually the bible says the two witnesses "torment"people.

 

https://biblehub.com/revelation/11-10.htm

 

My apologies, God says the two witnesses "torment"people.It appears this torment is indiscriminate as well.If you cause a drought as these two witnesses do ,you hurt everyone and everything alive .Women,children, even animals will thirst.

https://biblehub.com/revelation/11-6.htm

 

Theres no telling just how many babies these two witnesses kill while they are striking the earth with plagues as often as they want.

I would expect the peoples of the earth will be grateful they are killed.

Again the Bible says the two witnesses will kill those who seek to torment them.   What sort of torment can a baby provide?

You are pressing an extremist interpretation of scripture here.

Again, the Bible insists that the ways of man are not the ways of God.  He wounds and heals as is His good pleasure.  Unfortunately our present society is vehemently supportive of hedonistic self-gratification and hubris.  We cannot and will not acknowledge the just ways of God - especially when these ways contradict our human passions arrogance and perversions.

For this do we deserve the judgment that is coming upon us - yes and may already have arrived.....

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

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5 hours ago, choir loft said:

Again the Bible says the two witnesses will kill those who seek to torment them.   What sort of torment can a baby provide?

You are pressing an extremist interpretation of scripture here.

Again, the Bible insists that the ways of man are not the ways of God.  He wounds and heals as is His good pleasure.  Unfortunately our present society is vehemently supportive of hedonistic self-gratification and hubris.  We cannot and will not acknowledge the just ways of God - especially when these ways contradict our human passions arrogance and perversions.

For this do we deserve the judgment that is coming upon us - yes and may already have arrived.....

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Look,you can,not cause a drought in an area without effecting everyone in that area.You can,not poison water without poisoning everyone who drinks it.Not just men,,but wimen and children too.

The people who attempt to kill the witnesses are killed after fire comes out of thier mouths.But that has nothing to do with the severe drought they cause.

 

Evetyone will cheer when these two witnesses are killed because they torment people just as the bible says.

Edited by Shilohsfoal

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On 8/18/2019 at 12:59 PM, dhchristian said:

We agree more than we disagree. My point to you is that the individual is responsible for society, the man of Sin is an individual, much like U.S. Grant in your story that stands up and influences the system around them for Good in some cases, but also for evil. This becomes the spirit of the age. So For example we can have a positive Christian spirit influencing the age and we may have a Golden age, as we did after WWII, when we had a revival due to the wickedness witnessed in the war. Or we can have a demonic spirit of the age such as came to fruition in the 60's Which also saw the horrors of war, but instead of a spiritual revival (Arguably some did see spiritual revival) we saw a demonic rebellious spirit enter in. Those boomers are now the leaders of this kingdom largely, and this rebellious spirit is at the heart of it, the spirit of the age. 

Demonic Spirits oppress individuals, they in turn influence Society, which in turn opens up more souls to be hosts to demonic spirits, and so the beast system grows. This is Peter Berger's dialectic, although he did not apply this to demonology or spirituality per se. He was just observing social structures, and how they take on a life of their own. 

I Personally believe that Rev. 17 Is describing a different beast from the one in rev. 13. One that is similar, but not the same, a fourth beast of revelation. This beast is empowered not by a demonic Spirit possessing a man like the first three, but rather is a fallen angel ascending from the bottomless pit, a whole different class of demonic being. He is not Human, nor does he require a host, but has his own Body, and is capable of killing the two witnesses who no human can harm (rev. 11:5), but this fallen angel can kill them. This sort of Spirit being Was, and is not now, and is to come... if you see what I mean.  

 I agree in part. The "fallen angel" will be Satan himself.  He knows it will be his final try and he is going to go all out. Rev. 17 is talking about the devil's kingdoms of the past, present (for John) and future  that tried and will try to destroy Israel. It shows that the devil has no new tricks: he tried through   Egypt, then through  Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome in John's day, and in our future, the Rev. 13 Beast and his kingdom.  He will call for the nations of the world to assist. One boy in Israel that heard from God said that 70 nations will come against Israel at Armageddon. My guess is, every nation that has a standing army will send most of their troops. It still won't work! They will be fighting against God. 

My guess is, the  nations today  of the land areas of these ancient Empires will be the kingdom of the Beast: Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Saudi, Lebanon, Probably Turkey, and in the end, all the 'Stan nations from the east will join in. 

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34 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

 I agree in part. The "fallen angel" will be Satan himself.  He knows it will be his final try and he is going to go all out. Rev. 17 is talking about the devil's kingdoms of the past, present (for John) and future  that tried and will try to destroy Israel. It shows that the devil has no new tricks: he tried through   Egypt, then through  Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome in John's day, and in our future, the Rev. 13 Beast and his kingdom.  He will call for the nations of the world to assist. One boy in Israel that heard from God said that 70 nations will come against Israel at Armageddon. My guess is, every nation that has a standing army will send most of their troops. It still won't work! They will be fighting against God. 

My guess is, the  nations today  of the land areas of these ancient Empires will be the kingdom of the Beast: Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Saudi, Lebanon, Probably Turkey, and in the end, all the 'Stan nations from the east will join in. 

It's my understanding that entity comes out of the Abyss/bottomless pit.     Satan is not presently in the Abyss..

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48 minutes ago, other one said:

It's my understanding that entity comes out of the Abyss/bottomless pit.     Satan is not presently in the Abyss..

He is free to come and go as he wants.

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