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Is it suicide tendencies or expressing reaction to pressure?


Joulre2abba

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6 hours ago, dr3032 said:

Suicide is a cowardly act. I don't know if I would define it as "the easy way out," because nobody wants to die, thus the cowardice of it.

That is a narrow view of why people commit suicide. Speaking only of that reason is disrespectful. I'm assuming that you are distant from anyone you know or care about that has actually done it.

The portion I've snipped out was expressed in my opinion a distant, and clinical manner. For anyone of sensitivity it would frankly be disturbing and difficult to read.. I had to skip through much of it.

Please be mindful that you're posting to someone who's family member was in such deep despair that he went through with such a violent act against himself.

6 hours ago, dr3032 said:

I don't think the people in the Bible, or even most people in general, really get to that point where they truly do attempt suicide. They consider it, and consider it deeply, but either directly or indirectly realize that they don't want to die.

More was snipped.

6 hours ago, dr3032 said:

Death, whether we admit it or not, is a scary thing. We have lots of "but what ifs" that prevent us from ever full-on embracing death. Because that hesitation is hope. Hope of a better tomorrow. Hope of all the anguish passing away. We do not want to kill ourselves, but rather like a garden, cut away all the weeds and sickly things and pray that something good and beautiful springs forth from it. This "standing on the edge" feeling, that is what I interpret much of what's in the Bible. In a way, they are holding the blades to their necks, since they are asking God to kill them.

When those of the old testament ask that God remove them from their mortal coil, they aren't metaphorically holding a blade to their necks that sort of image is too comparative to what an enemy would do; which is violent and accompanied with fear.

What they speak of is something far different than that. They are speaking of God giving them "the kiss of death".. which means that God "takes away" their breath. Which means that that they just simply stop breathing.

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9 hours ago, dr3032 said:

Suicide is a cowardly act. I don't know if I would define it as "the easy way out," because nobody wants to die, thus the cowardice of it. They have or are in the process of convincing themselves that they wish to go down to the grave, and they will profess their desire to perish, but they do not truly want to. Why else, before killing themselves, does a person with glasses remove them? True enough, it's extremely rare to find anyone who keeps their glasses on before they take their own life. It's because they do not wish to see their death, because they have to fight their conscience just to do the deed.

I watched a video a time ago, news footage of a man named Daniel Jones. He was suffering from both HIV and cancer, and so thought commiting suicide would be a form of protest against HMOs, as he felt he wasn't being helped. He sat in a truck atop a bridge and brought along his dog, Gladdis. Perhaps he didn't want her going to a bad home, or perhaps he just didn't want to go alone (more courage from not being alone, that kind of thing). He first set off a molotov inside the truck, setting it ablaze. The fire hurt, and so he leaps out of the truck, leaving Gladdis burning within. He puts out the flames on himself because, as I said, he truly did not wish to die. You then see him gesturing angrily besides the edge of the bridge, as if he wants to jump off but can't bring himself to do it, because he did not wish to die. However, he psyched himself up when he grabbed his shotgun, and eventually did kill himself on live TV - The news continued broadcasting as his blood flowed out over the bridge. All this taking place over a few hours. Not 10 minutes, not even a half an hour.

I don't think the people in the Bible, or even most people in general, really get to that point where they truly do attempt suicide. They consider it, and consider it deeply, but either directly or indirectly realize that they don't want to die. Unwilling to even try suicide, to put it another way. It's normally what seems like dire circumstance, like Jones' HIV and cancer diagnosis, that press them forward. Maybe they have debts that seem like they can't be paid off, maybe they get an illness like cancer and would rather take their death into their own hands... I've even seen a similar suicide video where a guy killed himself to avoid being arrested, preferring to die than go back behind bars. Even Budd Dwyer, who's suicide I have also seen, took his life because he didn't want his family stuck with financial burden after his upcoming arrest; and it turned up years later that he was framed.

Death, whether we admit it or not, is a scary thing. We have lots of "but what ifs" that prevent us from ever full-on embracing death. Because that hesitation is hope. Hope of a better tomorrow. Hope of all the anguish passing away. We do not want to kill ourselves, but rather like a garden, cut away all the weeds and sickly things and pray that something good and beautiful springs forth from it. This "standing on the edge" feeling, that is what I interpret much of what's in the Bible. In a way, they are holding the blades to their necks, since they are asking God to kill them.

 

Suicide is not a “ cowardly” act. It is a response to UTTER despair.This despair is unknowable until you have lived it.It is my wish that nobody endure this terror.The phrase “ walk a mile in their shoes” was never more apt.It would be wise to err on the side of compassion, when pontificating on things we don’t understand .

 

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The Bible views suicide as murder. Self murder. God creates a life and God takes a life away. There can be despair in life. A nonbeliever can feel like they are up against a wall and they have no hope. A believer gives their life to God and prays for help. He will give them the help they need. A believer has hope.

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On 4/8/2019 at 6:05 PM, Joulre2abba said:

That is a narrow view of why people commit suicide. Speaking only of that reason is disrespectful. I'm assuming that you are distant from anyone you know or care about that has actually done it.

What they speak of is something far different than that. They are speaking of God giving them "the kiss of death".. which means that God "takes away" their breath. Which means that that they just simply stop breathing.

 

On 4/8/2019 at 8:14 PM, Blood Bought 1953 said:

Suicide is not a “ cowardly” act. It is a response to UTTER despair.This despair is unknowable until you have lived it.It is my wish that nobody endure this terror.The phrase “ walk a mile in their shoes” was never more apt.It would be wise to err on the side of compassion, when pontificating on things we don’t understand .

If you two had read my post, you would have seen that I meant no disrespect to those who have commited or have attempted suicide. I pointed out that people do not truly wish to die. The hesitation they show before leaping or pulling the trigger, the "cowardice" (perhaps not the best word choice), is hope for a better tomorrow. The fear and hesitation is what I referred to, not the actual suicide itself. Like I said, it's not the easy way out, because they are tormented and must fight their good conscience just to do the deed. It is a difficult act, one you have to be in a very, very dark place to truly do.

My post, rereading it, was perhaps a bit insensitive. It's not that I don't care, it's just that I think it best to not sugarcoat it. Suicide is self-murder and it is a terrible thing. No amount of soft language and social dance-arounds makes it otherwise. It's also rather rude of you to assume I have no experience with the subject, when I do. My dad has gotten drunk and spoken of blowing his brains out before. A friend of mine in high school got sent off because he tried to slit his wrists in the bath tub. I had to deal with other kids in public high school (being considered a loser) and so likewise considered it myself. The kids spread terrible gossip about me and I feared (even still somewhat do) that their words would follow me forever. I thought about it back then and I realized, if I truly wanted to die, would I not already be dead? Would I not have taken my life a long time ago? If my dad truly desired to die, would he not be? If my friend had wanted to die, why then did he call out in fear for his parents? The words "I want to die," are a call out to others, a cry for help that truthfully means, "I want to live".

Again, I apologize if my post seemed insensitive and distant. I perhaps shouldn't have spoken so in-depth about the various suicide videos i've seen; I just thought Jones was an excellent example of someone unwilling to die but forcing himself to anyway.

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On 4/5/2019 at 6:52 PM, Joulre2abba said:

‎I've heard family members who aren't saved say something along these lines when in a moment of emotional upset. I'm not in any way criticizing or  minimizing their emotional state at that time, just stating a fact.

But it did prompt me to research regarding the issue.

In Rev.9:6 it says, ".. but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man. And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death flees from them."

I've always read it thinking that they seriously took action that would result in suicide but were by God kept from being successful.. but today I saw it differently.

See what you think about this.

I now see the possibility that they are at the point that Job was, 6:9 "I wish he would crush me. I wish he would reach out his hand and kill me."
* Jonah 4:3 "And now, O LORD, please take my life from me, for it is better for me to die than to live."

* the person was, in 1 kings 19:4  "..while he himself traveled on a day's journey into the wilderness. He sat down under a broom tree and prayed that he might die. "I have had enough, LORD," he said. "Take my life, for I am no better than my fathers".

* the person in Numbers was, 11:15 "If this is how You are going to treat me, please kill me right now--if I have found favor in Your eyes--and let me not see my own wretchedness."

[Note to whoever it may concern: If the link is not appropriate then please do remove it.. and I do apologize in advance for including it if it was wrong to do so]

This movie clip also expresses it..
Arnold Schwarzenegger was in Predator. "just kill me now!"


------------------------------
If you'd like to post your comments .. I will not disagree with you at all.

Every day I await death for many reasons. I've tried and went through suicide, but i failed everytime and ended up in the hospital, but if i had died, I'd have not be saved and gone to Hell. The Lord wanted me alive.  Now He wants me alive to pursue His will, so I am glad to do that, but there's still that part of me that wants to die to get away from my sin, this cruel world, my bad memories, the way I'm treated every day- especially by unloving Christians such as my half brother who is a preacher- just last night he's claimed he basically hates me and wants nothing to do with me for such minor things, and even many of them are lies. I have a very long history of suffering for decades; child abuse, jail, suicidal, mental institution, cheated on, best friend room mate had fornication with my girl friend, biological father never married my mother and has babies with over 4 women and even hits me- who is also a popular drug addict and prisoner, my step father always told me he wanted to make me homeless and kill me when i become an adult, and when i became an adult he made me homeless in the freezing winter, then there were more years of homelessness, i was illegally kept out of schools, i had a disabilty that made it incredibly difficult to get a job and keep it because it wouldn't be safe to drive or work, yet no one would give me disability after court dates for over a decade, pastor after pastor hated me and kicked me out because of my being simply sad all the time or how i look, the list just never ends, so I have many reasons I want to die. The only thing that keeps me going that I don't kill myself every day is that I want to do the will of God, but if He was to answer one prayer, I'd beg him to take me out of this world. I'm awaiting patiently for death every morning I get up. But yet, if I could have what I wanted above all things, I'd rather not ever had existed at all, even knowing Heaven awaits and eternal life. If I could choose between Heaven, Hell or not existing, I'd rather not exist in the first place or anymore. But since that isn't option, I'm just waiting to get this sinful world over with.

Edited by Xethea
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On 4/8/2019 at 11:51 AM, dr3032 said:

Suicide is a cowardly act. I don't know if I would define it as "the easy way out," because nobody wants to die, thus the cowardice of it. They have or are in the process of convincing themselves that they wish to go down to the grave, and they will profess their desire to perish, but they do not truly want to. Why else, before killing themselves, does a person with glasses remove them? True enough, it's extremely rare to find anyone who keeps their glasses on before they take their own life. It's because they do not wish to see their death, because they have to fight their conscience just to do the deed.

I watched a video a time ago, news footage of a man named Daniel Jones. He was suffering from both HIV and cancer, and so thought commiting suicide would be a form of protest against HMOs, as he felt he wasn't being helped. He sat in a truck atop a bridge and brought along his dog, Gladdis. Perhaps he didn't want her going to a bad home, or perhaps he just didn't want to go alone (more courage from not being alone, that kind of thing). He first set off a molotov inside the truck, setting it ablaze. The fire hurt, and so he leaps out of the truck, leaving Gladdis burning within. He puts out the flames on himself because, as I said, he truly did not wish to die. You then see him gesturing angrily besides the edge of the bridge, as if he wants to jump off but can't bring himself to do it, because he did not wish to die. However, he psyched himself up when he grabbed his shotgun, and eventually did kill himself on live TV - The news continued broadcasting as his blood flowed out over the bridge. All this taking place over a few hours. Not 10 minutes, not even a half an hour.

I don't think the people in the Bible, or even most people in general, really get to that point where they truly do attempt suicide. They consider it, and consider it deeply, but either directly or indirectly realize that they don't want to die. Unwilling to even try suicide, to put it another way. It's normally what seems like dire circumstance, like Jones' HIV and cancer diagnosis, that press them forward. Maybe they have debts that seem like they can't be paid off, maybe they get an illness like cancer and would rather take their death into their own hands... I've even seen a similar suicide video where a guy killed himself to avoid being arrested, preferring to die than go back behind bars. Even Budd Dwyer, who's suicide I have also seen, took his life because he didn't want his family stuck with financial burden after his upcoming arrest; and it turned up years later that he was framed.

Death, whether we admit it or not, is a scary thing. We have lots of "but what ifs" that prevent us from ever full-on embracing death. Because that hesitation is hope. Hope of a better tomorrow. Hope of all the anguish passing away. We do not want to kill ourselves, but rather like a garden, cut away all the weeds and sickly things and pray that something good and beautiful springs forth from it. This "standing on the edge" feeling, that is what I interpret much of what's in the Bible. In a way, they are holding the blades to their necks, since they are asking God to kill them.

You have much to learn about people's feelings if that is what you believe about suicide. In fact, you've got a lot of it backwards, to be honest. Take some more time to get to know people who are suicidal before you go judging such things. You obviously weren't suicidal yourself, so you can only speak from mental understanding. I've lived the experience, so I know, and you're wrong.

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6 hours ago, dr3032 said:

 

If you two had read my post, you would have seen that I meant no disrespect to those who have commited or have attempted suicide. I pointed out that people do not truly wish to die. The hesitation they show before leaping or pulling the trigger, the "cowardice" (perhaps not the best word choice), is hope for a better tomorrow. The fear and hesitation is what I referred to, not the actual suicide itself. Like I said, it's not the easy way out, because they are tormented and must fight their good conscience just to do the deed. It is a difficult act, one you have to be in a very, very dark place to truly do.

My post, rereading it, was perhaps a bit insensitive. It's not that I don't care, it's just that I think it best to not sugarcoat it. Suicide is self-murder and it is a terrible thing. No amount of soft language and social dance-arounds makes it otherwise. It's also rather rude of you to assume I have no experience with the subject, when I do. My dad has gotten drunk and spoken of blowing his brains out before. A friend of mine in high school got sent off because he tried to slit his wrists in the bath tub. I had to deal with other kids in public high school (being considered a loser) and so likewise considered it myself. The kids spread terrible gossip about me and I feared (even still somewhat do) that their words would follow me forever. I thought about it back then and I realized, if I truly wanted to die, would I not already be dead? Would I not have taken my life a long time ago? If my dad truly desired to die, would he not be? If my friend had wanted to die, why then did he call out in fear for his parents? The words "I want to die," are a call out to others, a cry for help that truthfully means, "I want to live".

Again, I apologize if my post seemed insensitive and distant. I perhaps shouldn't have spoken so in-depth about the various suicide videos i've seen; I just thought Jones was an excellent example of someone unwilling to die but forcing himself to anyway.

A person sharing their own personal experiences concerning the matter goes a long way in relating with others who've also experienced it.. either directly or indirectly.. it's far better than using the experiences of others as any example.

I suggest that next time... you start with your personal experiences. And if you use the examples elsewhere that you did here.. use a warning alert first so the person will be able to prepare him or herself and decide if they want to read such potentially disturbing examples.

Thank you for your consideration.

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7 hours ago, Xethea said:

The only thing that keeps me going that I don't kill myself every day is that I want to do the will of God, but if He was to answer one prayer, I'd beg him to take me out of this world. I'm awaiting patiently for death every morning I get up. But yet, if I could have what I wanted above all things, I'd rather not ever had existed at all, even knowing Heaven awaits and eternal life.

I'm not qualified by ordination to encourage you, but I'm qualified by my own experiences of difficulties in life to encourage you.

You have done well in holding fast unto our Savior even through all the problems, troubles and difficulties you've had. But we are not meant to endure in our own power. In your own power you'd just as soon not have been born.

But because of God's love, you were born, because of Jesus crucifixion and because you heard the gospel, you got saved. So go from there and don't wish for what didn't happen (you're not having existed).

What is the difference between you wishing for that, and a mother telling their child that she preferred that the child not have existed? There isn't much difference. You are not loving yourself in the same way that that mother didn't love her child.

Because you initially accepted God's love for you. Stay in that love. That is loving yourself as much as He loves you. And He loves you more than you could ever love yourself. Let what the apostle John wrote be yours "We have known and believed God's love for us." 1 John.4:16. And this one "How great a love the Father has bestowed upon us, that we should be called His children and so we are." 1 John 3:1.

When we pray to God, we need not tell Him our troubles because He already knows about them. Talking about them during our prayer time will not make them go away, but instead keep things at status quo.. or even intensify our troubles. Saying them however much that you do is planting another row in the garden. They'll sprout and grow and more troubles will be happening to you.

A rule of thumb. Don't talk about what you don't want to happen, but talk about what you do want to happen (within God's will and promises to us that He delights to cause them to happen) because God watches over His word to perform it. Jeremiah 1:12.

So we are to instead return to Him His word that He sent to us. Isaiah 55:11. His word sent is like seeds for us to sow in our own garden of faith.

His will is that we say what He already said about us. What He spoke is His will for us. So when praying, pray according to God's will. According to the apostle John in 1 John 5:13-15 that's when God hears us.. not that he doesn't hear us when we fellowship with Him, telling Him what troubling thing happened each day.. but God is waiting to hear us speak His will.. concerning His comfort to us, to encourage us, to bring His favor into our lives.

And therefore we can know that He will answer us, and we shall receive from Him what we asked for or requested. As long as we stay in faith and doubt not.

When your circumstances are not pleasant or anything to be cheerful about, then begin to quote scripture verses concerning gladness and joy and peace to prevail in spite of circumstances. 

Psalm 42:5 says "Why are you downcast, O my soul? Why the unease within me? Put your hope in God, for I shall yet praise Him for the salvation of His presence."

Psalm 94:19 "When anxiety abounds within me, Your comforts delight my soul."

Jeremiah 15:16 "When your words came, I ate them (that is comparing eating natural food that satisfies the body with speaking God's word and one's heart being satisfied by it) ..

"..and they (God's words) were (are) my joy and my heart's delight, for I bear your name, LORD God Almighty."

...

When you get up each morning quote the scripture "This is the day that the Lord has made, I will rejoice and be glad in Him." Psalm 118:24.

It doesn't matter if you don't feel joyful at the time. When you speak these often, your feelings will eventually comply. Remember that before you confessed Jesus unto salvation you were a sinner, and so you became born again. Before Abraham was a father he spoke what God said about him, that he was the father of many nations. And so he became one.

When you speak your list of troubles, they act as magnates to cause more troubles and problems in your life to happen. So instead say what the Psalmist said in Psalm 5:11-12. "Let all who take refuge in You rejoice; let them ever shout for joy. May You shelter them, that those who love Your name may rejoice in You. For surely You, O LORD, bless the righteous; You surround them with the shield of your favor."

Being righteous is who you are in Christ Jesus. So acknowledge boldly what Jesus has made you. Honor Him in accepting His work done for you. As 2 Cor.5:21 said "For He who knew no sin was made to be sin for us, that we become the righteousness of God in Him." And Eph.4:24  said "Put off the old self and put on the new self that is created after God in righteousness and holiness."

...

Here are some other scriptures to rehearse..

Psalm 91:1 "I dwell in the secret place of the Most High God and abide under the shadow of the Almighty whose power no foe can withstand." (amplified version of the Bible)

Psalm 8:1 "From the lips of children and infants You have ordained praise on account of Your adversaries, to silence the enemy and avenger." When you are praising God .. it's like the devil gets a duct tape slapped over his mouth. 

Isaiah 54:17 "No weapon formed against you shall prosper, and you will refute every tongue that accuses you. This is the heritage of the LORD’s servants, and their vindication is from Me,” declares the LORD."

Psalm 23:6 "Mercy and goodness shall follow me all the days of my life, and when my life is ended I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever."

And lastly, concerning those who've spoken unkindly to you.. we are to do God's will and forgive. This is not an area of consulting one's feelings to see if forgiveness is possible. This is an area of the loved child of God telling those feelings to humble themselves to God's will.

Jesus taught that when we pray asking God for anything.. we are to forgive those who've persecuted or offended us. In Mrk.11:25 Jesus said "Forgive if you have ought against any." Eph.4:32 said "Forgive as God in Christ has forgiven you." And Eph.5:1 says "Imitate your heavenly Father as children imitate their parents.

Again, don't let feelings keep you from saying the words. "I forgive that person. In the name of Jesus I forgive." Or words along those lines.

Then you could quote "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name, Your kingdom come. Your will be done on Earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation (troubles, trials, adversities).. but deliver us from evil. For Yours is the kingdom, the power, the glory for ever and ever. Amen."

The phrase, "our daily bread" is referring to daily Bible devotional reading.. which is our study time with the Lord, as we take His yoke upon us and learn from Him.

I do hope that these will give you encouragement concerning your life.

I'm praying for you. :th_praying:

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On 4/5/2019 at 6:52 PM, Joulre2abba said:

‎I've heard family members who aren't saved say something along these lines when in a moment of emotional upset. I'm not in any way criticizing or  minimizing their emotional state at that time, just stating a fact.

But it did prompt me to research regarding the issue.

In Rev.9:6 it says, ".. but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man. And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death flees from them."

I've always read it thinking that they seriously took action that would result in suicide but were by God kept from being successful.. but today I saw it differently.

See what you think about this.

I now see the possibility that they are at the point that Job was, 6:9 "I wish he would crush me. I wish he would reach out his hand and kill me."
* Jonah 4:3 "And now, O LORD, please take my life from me, for it is better for me to die than to live."

* the person was, in 1 kings 19:4  "..while he himself traveled on a day's journey into the wilderness. He sat down under a broom tree and prayed that he might die. "I have had enough, LORD," he said. "Take my life, for I am no better than my fathers".

* the person in Numbers was, 11:15 "If this is how You are going to treat me, please kill me right now--if I have found favor in Your eyes--and let me not see my own wretchedness."

[Note to whoever it may concern: If the link is not appropriate then please do remove it.. and I do apologize in advance for including it if it was wrong to do so]

This movie clip also expresses it..
Arnold Schwarzenegger was in Predator. "just kill me now!"


------------------------------
If you'd like to post your comments .. I will not disagree with you at all.

7
7

In the Song of Deborah in Judges, it speaks of Zebulun as a people that despised their lives even unto death and Naphtali also...............they took no plunder in silver. Judges 5:18,19

The verses you've written above have a spiritual connection to a reality in our discipleship. Jesus after He came out of the wilderness being tempted he heard John had been arrested and Jesus returned to Nazareth, from there went into the land of Zebulun and Naphtali Galilee of the Gentiles. Matth. 4. Most of His ministry took place in the countryside and he chose His disciples from this region. 

Jesus goes on to teach about loving not your life in this world. If you seek to preserve your life you will lose it and if you lose your life for his namesake you will gain it. Love not the world nor the things of this world. The verses you quoted are speaking more about experiencing the futility and wretchedness of this place and our righteousness is as filthy rags. Naphtali and Zebulun came to the battle when called while the other tribes hesitated or stayed aloof. Jesus chose His disciples from a people who historically had their priorities straight. When he said follow me, they left what they were doing, didn't they.

At first, I wasn't so sure those were good proof text verses to understand the situation in Revelation but there may be a principle involved. I too have always read into that verse they were seeking to kill themselves but God prevented it. Interesting, something to think further on. I think I may see what you're getting at.  

Edited by Zemke
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I lost a very dear friend to suicide and someone else I knew when I was 12. I have to say I  actually have been in a place I thought it was better to get it over with than live another day and even tried things in 2007. It is a tough place to be something I would never wish on anyone.

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