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Calculations about the New Jerusalem


Retrobyter

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3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

So...where is Jesus now?

Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

That's a simple answer IF you'll believe what Yeshua` said, both times through Yochanan ("John"):

John 14:1-3 (KJV)

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Revelation 21:1-3 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (a loud voice out of the throne) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God (Greek: hee skeenee tou Theou = "God's Tent") is with men, and he will dwell with them (Greek: skeenoosei met' autoon = "He-will-tent with them"), and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

This "skeenee" or "tent" is the same word used for Avraham's Bedouin tent in which he and his children lived, Avraham's HOUSE:

Hebrews 11:9-10 (KJV)

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles (Greek: skeenais = "tents") with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

He was actually anticipating the New Jerusalem that God was building, although at the time he didn't know it would be called that! It was at that time in Genesis that we read anyone call God, "Adonay," which means "my-Foundation-Layer," or "my-Founder." I believe this is how the author of Hebrews knew this about Avraham.

Very early (page 14) of the book Manners and Customs of Bible Lands by Fred H. Wight (Moody Press, Chicago, 1953), Mr. Wight said,

Quote

The Bedouin's home is his tent, which is made of black goat's hair. He calls it beit sha'ar, i.e., "house of hair."

Later in a section headed, "Patching a Tent and Enlarging the Quarters," he added,

Quote

 

New tents are very seldom made among the Bedouins. About the only time this happens is when a young groom and bride set up housekeeping for themselves in a different location from that of the groom's parents, and this rarely happens. The usual procedure is to accumulate the goat clippings of a year or so, and with these make a new strip with which to repair the old tent. The women do this work. The section of the tent roof that is most worn is ripped out, and a new piece of the cloth replaces it. The old piece is then used for a side curtain. Each year new strips of cloth replace old ones and the "house of hair" is handed down from father to son without its being completely new or completely old at any one time.

As the tent-dweller's family grows larger, or as he becomes richer and wishes to enlarge his tent, he does so by simply adding another section to his old tent, very much like the Occidental would build another room on to his house, but there is this difference: instead of building a new tent they just continue patching.  ...

 

(pages 17-18)

This is the allusion that Yeshua` made above when He said, "I go to prepare a place for you." He was going there to His Father's house, His Father's Tent, the New Jerusalem, to add on a room for each one of them (and ultimately for us, too). That's why I say, that, as long as Yeshua` is absent, He is still building within the New Jerusalem; it is still "under construction!"

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4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

Hi Retro,

As usual, quite interesting. And as usual you really didn`t answer my question. So...is Jesus behind the clouds, on a planet, or as Scripture tells us at the right hand of the Father, who is above all, the heaven of the heavens. That is the Godhead`s seat of power beyond all created things.

The city comes down out of heaven FROM GOD. God is omnipresent and will dwell with people in the city by His Holy Spirit.

Marilyn.

 

 

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On 4/11/2019 at 9:47 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Diaste.

Just for the record, we'll answer this post, too. 

Now, let's attack the root misunderstandings:

First, one MUST be able to distinguish between an object and its dimensions. To say that an object is x long and y wide and z high, it does draw for us an imaginary "box" in which the object is contained, but it does NOT mean that the object fills that box!

Second, one MUST be able to distinguish between two-dimensional measurements and three-dimensional measurements. One usually doesn't get into this until they get into calculus, but there's such a thing as a PROJECTION in which the dimensions of the three-dimensional object are PROJECTED onto a two-dimensional grid, like the picture of an object being PROJECTED onto a flat screen or a person's shadow is PROJECTED onto the ground.

The words "lieth foursquare" is a TWO-dimensional measurement, not a three-dimensional description! What it means is that the BASE of the city is two-dimensionally projected as a SQUARE! However, it does NOT tell us anything about the third dimension in that single statement! That's why John went on and added, "the length and the width and the height of it are equal." NOW, he gives information about the third dimension. However, ALL that is said is that the imaginary "box" in which the city would reside would be "12,000 furlongs" high as well! That statement by itself says NOTHING about the shape of the walls of the city or about their directions within that "box!" ALL that he said was that, whatever the city looks like within that imaginary "box," the height of the city does not exceed the "12,000 furlongs" limit!

Finally, a real reed IS a tube! It's a grass stalk! How many grasses do you know that produce rectangular cross-sections in their stems? It's not a yardstick, y'know! How hard is it to measure with a ROUND rod?! And, can you imagine how long it would take to use a six-foot rod to measure 1,379.86 MILES????!!!! It MIGHT be possible for an "angel" to do it ... POP, POP, POP, POP, POP, POP, POP, POP, POP, POP, POP, POP, POP, POP, POP, POP, .... "Phew! Done! Now, how many times was that?" (Ridiculous.)

Can you imagine how much such an event would tax the normal patience of a person? (John went out for coffee and a nap for days on end until the "angel" completed the task!)

How much simpler would it be to measure the angle from the top to the bottom of the city or from one side of the city to the other side, use the distance from which you are away from the city, and calculate how high and how wide that would make the city?

Conclusion? It's a surveyor's theodolite. As Charlie "Tremendous" Jones would say, "See it big, keep it simple."

Then you are saying no conclusion can be drawn about the shape of the city and the pyramid argument fails. Fact is it's described as a cube just like any cube is described today. I solve for triangles quite frequently for my work, including constructing a pyramid shape from time to time, and never is the shape described x³. I have constructed hundreds of three dimensional shapes based on L, W, H and none have been described as a² x b² = c². But if you wish to persist contrary to everyday understanding you are certainly free to do so.

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On 4/11/2019 at 8:59 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Diaste.

Well, if you're a flat-earther, then, no, this argument won't make any sense. But, we AREN'T on a flat earth! I have never seen satisfactory physics for believing in a flat earth.

As a kid, I used to LOVE reading encyclopedias for a hobby. (Still do, when the mood strikes.) My parents bought the family a set of Compton's Encyclopedias while I was still in grade school, and I inherited the set, and made them accessible to my children. One of the examples they showed was a ball that was bigger than a house upon which a tiny fly lands. To the fly, the ball seemed like a flat land, even though we could see it was round.

One of the proofs for a round earth is watching the ships sail off into the horizon. First, the bottoms of the ships disappear from sight and finally the tops of the ships disappear as the ships sail over the horizon. (This is why sailors used to worry about comrades falling off the edge of the earth!)

When you're traveling to a mountainous region, the first thing you see about the mountains is their tops. You won't see the bottoms of the mountains until you get close enough to the mountains.

One of the confusing things to flat-earthers are the directions of sun beams, always pointing away from the sun through the clouds, but what we are seeing are foreshortened shafts of light that are radiated out from the sun 93 million miles away.

Hold up your hand in front of your face, and look at your hand and see how long your fingers are. Now, point your fingers away from your face and look down your hand to your fingertips. You are seeing your fingers foreshortened, and they seem much shorter that the actual lengths of your fingers.

When we're looking at sunbeams, we are seeing beams of light from the sun that are ALMOST parallel to each other, but the sun is actually VERY big, compared to the earth, and these rays of light come from the entire disk of the sun (from our perspective). So, we are seeing these "fingers" of light foreshortened and since they are NOT actually parallel, we see them spreading out as they emanate from the sun.

It's a little like looking down a long, straight line of electrical towers and the wires hanging between them. If we are standing below one of these towers, we can see the wires forming what look like waves of wire looping in what looks like u's of wire. However, in reality, the wires are pulled very tightly and their weight pulls them down in a shape called a catenary that looks like a parabola, but is slightly different in shape. Looking edge-on, however, they appear to be sagging quite distinctly.

That's enough for now, but no matter what I explain, you're not going to accept the explanations until you are WILLING to accept them. After all, "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." Since you were not willing to accept the pyramid theory, I had to attack the problem at its source, the theory of a flat earth. May God give you a clear understanding and open eyes to see.

Well, YOLO! 

It has been proven many times by amateur videographers that zooming in on a ship which cannot be seen by the naked eye brings the full ship back into view, right down to the waterline. There are many reasons why eyesight is obscured and to accept a popular argument, or arguments, as proof is intellectually lazy, imo. Perspective plays an enormous part in our ability to see distant objects. Objects shrink in the distance and every great Master artist has proven this for centuries. Given enough distance the object will disappear. 

There is a long straight road here in WY that drops down from a high point into a valley then climbs to another high point about 5 miles distant. I can see the entire roadway through the valley as it slowly shrinks to nothing more than a line then disappears altogether. Since I'm between two high points that disappearance of the roadway has nothing to do with the curve of a globe and everything to do with observation and perspective. One day I was parked on the high point above the valley taking in the scene across the valley to snow capped peaks when a car passed by heading into the valley. That vehicle shrunk to the size of an ant from my perspective before it got to the valley floor. Halfway through the valley I could no longer even detect movement nor see the glint of the chrome. Perspective, not a globular curve. Observation, not equation. Evidence, not agenda.

You realize that Eratosthenes calcs while correct, I reproduced these simple calculations, are based on two assumptions that cannot be proven. We have barely deviated from those factless assumptions for almost 600 years. 

I have asked several times of globe apologists for the video NASA must have of the spinning earth. After all, they were a total of 36 full days to the moon and back from late 60's to early 80's. They couldn't train a camera on the spinning globe to get the most amazing footage ever recorded? Imagine the awestruck wonder of actually being able to witness our globe spinning. But there's nothing, no real time video. 

One of the biggest and most profound arguments against the heliocentric model is the biblical proof, "and every eye will see him". That is not possible on a globe unless Jesus is coming in at least every cardinal direction at the same time. So, flat earth makes much more sense than the unproven spinning globe and whirling solar system careening through space at ludicrous speeds.

" for the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he hath set the world upon them." - 1 Samuel 2

"And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered," - 2 Samuel 22

" the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved." - 1 Chronicles 16

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding." - Job 38

"the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O Lord, " - Psalms 18

"Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever." - Psalms 104

And on and on. The earth is fixed by the word of the Lord. But you go ahead and believe whatever you wish; it's our privilege and curse.

 

 

 

 

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Let's not hi-jack another thread with the flat earth / global earth debate ...

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1 hour ago, Diaste said:

One of the biggest and most profound arguments against the heliocentric model is the biblical proof, "and every eye will see him". That is not possible on a globe unless Jesus is coming in at least every cardinal direction at the same time.

Some assumptions are being made here on Revelation 1:7 that are not there and about time. It doesn't say everyone at the exact same moment on the planet will see the Lord coming. I get the sense "clouds" in this meaning are not for masking or hiding, clouds are symbols of majesty [Ex. 19:18, Ps 18:11, Isa. 19:1] as every eye shall see Him. Perhaps clouds not only represent majesty, but is also an analogy for movement in the 2nd heaven to witness and see?

Revelation 1:7 (KJV) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

However, since the Lord is omnipresent, every eye could see Him coming at the exact same moment globally. I don't believe the world is going to have a long wait to witness this event, based on 'all' end-time Bible prophecy being fulfilled and coming into view. 

 

Just my 2 mites worth. 

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3 hours ago, Diaste said:

One of the biggest and most profound arguments against the heliocentric model is the biblical proof, "and every eye will see him". That is not possible on a globe unless Jesus is coming in at least every cardinal direction at the same time.

It is possible if all mankind were within say 2000 miles of the Mt of Olives.  What do you think the purpose of; 1/4th of mankind dying in the 4th Seal; 1/3 of the earth burning up in the 1st Trumpet; 1/3 of the sea turning to blood in the 2nd Trumpet, 1/3 of the waters turning bitter in the 3rd Trumpet; No more islands of the 7th Bowl.  All these are herding the population masses closer to the End (the Second Coming).

In Christ

Montana Marv

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1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Some assumptions are being made here on Revelation 1:7 that are not there and about time. It doesn't say everyone at the exact same moment on the planet will see the Lord coming. I get the sense "clouds" in this meaning are not for masking or hiding, clouds are symbols of majesty [Ex. 19:18, Ps 18:11, Isa. 19:1] as every eye shall see Him. Perhaps clouds not only represent majesty, but is also an analogy for movement in the 2nd heaven to witness and see?

Revelation 1:7 (KJV) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

However, since the Lord is omnipresent, every eye could see Him coming at the exact same moment globally. I don't believe the world is going to have a long wait to witness this event, based on 'all' end-time Bible prophecy being fulfilled and coming into view. 

 

Just my 2 mites worth. 

I do suppose every point has a counterpoint but from extensive reading on the subject it certainly seems Jesus appears the cites fall and He comes down on the mount of Olives to fight against His enemies. I have not read where he makes a circuit of the globe, a tour as it were.

I cannot understand omnipresence as having multiple physical forms all existing at the same moment. It's explained thus, " that God may be all in all [manifesting His glory without any opposition, the supreme indwelling and controlling factor of life].

The very being of the Most High is all creation but He has one physical form. He is the life, not multiple projections.

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7 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

It is possible if all mankind were within say 2000 miles of the Mt of Olives.  What do you think the purpose of; 1/4th of mankind dying in the 4th Seal; 1/3 of the earth burning up in the 1st Trumpet; 1/3 of the sea turning to blood in the 2nd Trumpet, 1/3 of the waters turning bitter in the 3rd Trumpet; No more islands of the 7th Bowl.  All these are herding the population masses closer to the End (the Second Coming).

In Christ

Montana Marv

It's possible but I don't see it based on,

"And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." - Matt 24

"And He will send out the angels to gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven." - Mark 13

Looks like under the whole sky, from end to end of the earth under the heavens, the elect are gathered. 

So I would conclude that no, not everyone will be within 2000 miles of Jerusalem.

From that far away on a globe our size the drop is 530 miles give or take. The rise of the globe between the observer and the object from that distance is 128 miles; outer space is 62 miles up. Does that seem feasible?

This is just a what if, because I have no idea, but maybe Operation High Jump found the dome just over 18 miles up and the rest of the data has just been falsified? 

Like I said, no idea other than we are being lied to about a great many things; only the Lord has the truth.

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6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

As usual, quite interesting. And as usual you really didn`t answer my question. So...is Jesus behind the clouds, on a planet, or as Scripture tells us at the right hand of the Father, who is above all, the heaven of the heavens. That is the Godhead`s seat of power beyond all created things.

The city comes down out of heaven FROM GOD. God is omnipresent and will dwell with people in the city by His Holy Spirit.

Marilyn.

 

 

Shalom, Marilyn.

Well, actually, I did. You just don't like the answer.

Yes, He is above/beyond the clouds.

No, He is not on a planet. We've discovered that crystals are best grown in the weightlessness of space. Gems, even semiprecious gems, are simply doped crystals of aluminates or silicates. God would know no less.

Yes, He is at His Father's right hand side.

No, He is not "above all"; the FATHER is.

Yes, He is in "the heaven of the heavens," or "the expanse of the expanses." This is the Hebrew understanding of the place where the sun, moon, and stars are. "The heavens," translated from hashaamaayim, refers to the earth's atmosphere, the skies, both the night sky and the day sky (which is why it is a DUAL word).

And, I'm absolutely FLOORED that you would ignore the DIRECT TEACHING of God right there in Revelation 21 and 22 through the gobbledy gook of your double-talk!!!

You say, "That is the Godhead`s seat of power beyond all created things. The city comes down out of heaven FROM GOD. God is omnipresent and will dwell with people in the city by His Holy Spirit."

The Scriptures say,

Revelation 21:1-4, 22-23; 22:1-5 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (Greek: Kai eekousa foonees megalees ek tou thronou = "And I-heard a-voice loud out of-the throne") saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."
...

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
...

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner offruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

THIS is where God's THRONE is located!!! It's NOT located in some fictional, ethereal "place" called "Heaven," let alone the "heaven of heavens" (Hebrew: shmeey hashaamayim)! How could it be any clearer?! You are TWISTING the Scriptures with your theological rhetoric and BELITTLING what the Son of God has said through Yochanan, and that is NOT wise!

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