Calculations about the New Jerusalem

[Marilyn C]

12 hours ago, Heybro said:

Hey there everyone, I believe that this is the time to" put up the flag" as there seems to be 2 trains of thought on this subject. In my understanding, we will not always agree on things this side of Glory, and I think it's time to put this one "to bed," no winners here, let's just not argue anymore. You should all know what I know, and that is, "at the END of days, JESUS WILL HAVE THE LAST SAY," amen, God bless.

Hi Heybro,

Good word there bro and timely, otherwise we go round in circles.

thanks, Marilyn.

[Retrobyter]

On 4/14/2019 at 5:49 AM, Heybro said:

Hey there everyone, I believe that this is the time to" put up the flag" as there seems to be 2 trains of thought on this subject. In my understanding, we will not always agree on things this side of Glory, and I think it's time to put this one "to bed," no winners here, let's just not argue anymore. You should all know what I know, and that is, "at the END of days, JESUS WILL HAVE THE LAST SAY," amen, God bless.

Shabbat shalom, Heybro.

We need to understand that God doesn't think of us as two separate peoples that are His, the children of Israel and the Christians also known as the "Body of Christ" or the "Bride of Christ."

Marilyn's theory is that we are two separate peoples for eternity: The children of Israel will be given the New Earth (with the New Jerusalem), and the Bride of Christ will be given the New Heaven.

NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!!!

Whereas it is not true that the church absorbed the promises for Israel (Replacement Theology), it is LIKEWISE untrue that they are not one body in Yeshua` the Messiah! Read this carefully:

Ephesians 2:11-18 (KJV)

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh (and are now Gentile believers), who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were ...

without Christ (without a Messiah),
being aliens from the commonwealth (citizenship) of Israel, and
strangers from the covenants of promise,
having no hope, and
without God in the world: 

13 But now in Christ Jesus (in the Messiah Yeshua`) ye (Gentile believers) who sometimes were far off are made nigh (close) by the blood of Christ (the blood of the Messiah). 

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

It is not that children of Israel are made members of the "church"; it's that GENTILE believers are made members of God's commonwealth or citizenry of Israel! For some prideful reason, Gentile believers think that the JEWS must be grafted into the "Church!" It's quite the OTHER WAY AROUND!

Romans 11:11-32 (KJV)

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall (permanently)? God forbid: but rather through their (temporary) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (the children of Israel) to jealousy. 12 Now if the (temporary) fall of them (the children of Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (the children of Israel) [be] the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then,

"The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in."

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell (temporarily), severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they (children of Israel) also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature (an oleaster tree), and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their (Israel's children's) own olive tree?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part (temporarily) is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,

There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but
as touching the election (the chosen; the elect), they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (i.e., God doesn't renege on his gifts or calling). 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

It is PRIDEFUL (and SHAMEFUL) to think that you Gentile believers, calling yourselves "the Body of Christ" (which means "the Body of the Jewish MESSIAH," by the way) and "the Bride of Christ" (which means "the Bride of the Jewish MESSIAH"), somehow have a superiority over the children of Israel! Who did Paul say is grafted into whom?!

In BOTH "Testaments," people were justified by God IN THE SAME WAY!!! Always, by Grace, through faith, by blood! There's no advantage to being a "Gentile believer!" Is there an advantage to being a Jew? Paul said, "YES!!!"

Romans 3:1-4 (KJV)

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles (the words) of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid (NOT POSSIBLE!): yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written,

"That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

This isn't about "winning"; it's all about being in accord with the Scriptures!

And, as far as "at the END of days, JESUS WILL HAVE THE LAST SAY," He does and He shall!

Isaiah 66:22-23 (KJV)

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

(Which also proves, by the way, that there SHALL be a sun and a moon for the New Earth throughout eternity.)

Edited April 21, 2019 by Retrobyter
to answer all of Heybro's post

[Retrobyter]

Shalom to all.

Just a quick word about my discussions with Marilyn C. Heybro pointed out that some newbies may take my  passionate discussions with her the wrong way; so, I wanted to be sure that everyone understands that I still like Marilyn and respect her as a person and as my sister in the Lord.

We may differ on certain points, but I believe that she is an honest, born-again believer. As I said to Heybro (in a personal message), I don't know her personally and I couldn't pick her out in a crowd, but based on our discussions, I trust her as a sister and a friend.

I do NOT believe in "ad hominem" arguments; that is, arguments that devolve into attacking the person. They simply show that you don't have a legitimate answer, have run out of things to say about a subject, and have resorted to a VERY low attempt at attacking the character of another blood-washed child of God. (It's not wise to attack one of His own!) My motto is "attack the problem, not the person."

I am very passionate about what I believe because I am very passionate about the One who gave me these insights. I don't believe that the Holy Spirit of God gives us insights lightly! Therefore, I take them very seriously, and I'm amazed at how He works them all together into a fabric that is tightly interconnected.

So, if at times I sound like I'm attacking Marilyn or anyone else, please understand that I'm only attacking the position he or she is taking and not the person! I honor Marilyn and many others on this Worthy site as I would honor our Savior, Yeshua` the Messiah, the Son of God! He thought much about them and lifted them to a status as a "child of God" who is justified by God and who has been given the downpayment of the Holy Spirit within them! 

[Marilyn C]

52 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom to all.

Just a quick word about my discussions with Marilyn C. Heybro pointed out that some newbies may take my  passionate discussions with her the wrong way; so, I wanted to be sure that everyone understands that I still like Marilyn and respect her as a person and as my sister in the Lord.

We may differ on certain points, but I believe that she is an honest, born-again believer. As I said to Heybro (in a personal message), I don't know her personally and I couldn't pick her out in a crowd, but based on our discussions, I trust her as a sister and a friend.

I do NOT believe in "ad hominem" arguments; that is, arguments that devolve into attacking the person. They simply show that you don't have a legitimate answer, have run out of things to say about a subject, and have resorted to a VERY low attempt at attacking the character of another blood-washed child of God. (It's not wise to attack one of His own!) My motto is "attack the problem, not the person."

I am very passionate about what I believe because I am very passionate about the One who gave me these insights. I don't believe that the Holy Spirit of God gives us insights lightly! Therefore, I take them very seriously, and I'm amazed at how He works them all together into a fabric that is tightly interconnected.

So, if at times I sound like I'm attacking Marilyn or anyone else, please understand that I'm only attacking the position he or she is taking and not the person! I honor Marilyn and many others on this Worthy site as I would honor our Savior, Yeshua` the Messiah, the Son of God! He thought much about them and lifted them to a status as a "child of God" who is justified by God and who has been given the downpayment of the Holy Spirit within them! 

Hi Retro,

In all the years I have known you, (many) we have had lots of great discussions, & I have NEVER known you to attack me or put me down. You & I are very passionate about what we believe and like to share that with each other and other people. I do respect you as a brother in the Lord and agree that to attack someone really shows that they are resorting to low tactics to try and win in a discussion. We on the other hand just like to share & discus God`s word and leave the final truth to the Lord.

I have been attacked by a few here on Worthy but they seem to have all faded off and gone, or asked to go elsewhere. I think over the past year or so, some really good people have come on Worthy, (as well as some good ones already here) and these have greatly lifted the encouragement level and giving good Godly advice; Hey bro and his dear wife among them.

all the best, bro. Marilyn.

[Retrobyter]

On 4/12/2019 at 6:48 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi missmuffet,

Now where in all those 27 scriptures does it say about us, the Body of Christ? Also, that is the finale and we really need to have scriptures before then to show that that is what God has promised us.

Marilyn. 

Shalom and chag sameach (happy holy-day), Marilyn.

Thank you for your kind response. I would like to go back one more time to this understanding of who are in the New Jerusalem. Let's go back to the beginning of the Revelation:

Revelation 2:7 (KJV)

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 22:1-2 (KJV)

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner offruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 2:11 (KJV)

11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 21:2-8 (KJV)

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

5 And he that sat upon the throne said,

"Behold, I make all things new."

And he said unto me,

"Write: for these words are true and faithful." 

6 And he said unto me,

"It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Revelation 2:26-29 (KJV)

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 22:3-5 (KJV)

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 3:12-13 (KJV)

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven (out of the sky) from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 21:9-11 (KJV)

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying,

"Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife."

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

Revelation 3:21-22 (KJV)

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 22:3-5 (KJV)

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Are you really so sure that we won't be in the New Jerusalem?

Edited April 22, 2019 by Retrobyter
to acknowledge Marilyn's kind words

[Marilyn C]

41 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom and chag sameach (happy holy-day), Marilyn.

Thank you for your kind response. I would like to go back one more time to this understanding of who are in the New Jerusalem. Let's go back to the beginning of the Revelation:

Are you really so sure that we won't be in the New Jerusalem?

Hi Retro,

Yes I am really, really sure that we the BODY of Christ will not reside in the New Jerusalem, however we are given authority there as well as all realms in God`s great kingdom. (Rev. 3: 12)

`God having provided SOMETHING BETTER, (great dominion) for US, that they apart from us should not be made perfect apart from us.` (Rev. 11: 40)

When the BODY of Christ is ruling with Christ in the highest realm of the created order, (greater dominion) then after all other rulership is brought under Christ, and there is a new heaven and new earth, then we know that those who were promised the city will come down and rule from the lower heavens. Thus together under Christ, but ruling from different places, we shall all be perfect, in harmony.

regards, Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

On ‎4‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 1:45 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

You absolutely MUST learn your own history! It's not black and white, y'know. It's not "Old Testament saints" and "New Testament saints!"

Hi Retro,

I think heybro might have been referring to how you come across when you get `passionate` about this topic. You are stating that I do not know my history, when really you are just presenting YOUR view and I am presenting My view. Thus we should not come over saying the other person does not know this or that or whatever.

regards, Marilyn.

[Retrobyter]

15 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

I think heybro might have been referring to how you come across when you get `passionate` about this topic. You are stating that I do not know my history, when really you are just presenting YOUR view and I am presenting My view. Thus we should not come over saying the other person does not know this or that or whatever.

regards, Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

Then, allow me to phrase it as a question: Do you indeed know the full extent of your JEWISH HISTORY when it comes to being a believer in the Jewish Messiah, a.k.a., the Christ?

We'll start with that, and I'll say no more ... yet.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Retrobyter

[Marilyn C]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

Then, allow me to phrase it as a question: Do you indeed know the full extent of your JEWISH HISTORY when it comes to being a believer in the Jewish Messiah, a.k.a., the Christ?

We'll start with that, and I'll say no more ... yet.

Hi Retro,

I don`t believe I do have Jewish History. My history starts with the Lord Jesus.

Marilyn.

(BTW that must be the shortest post I`ve ever seen you do.) (lol)

 

[Retrobyter]

On 4/22/2019 at 9:42 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

I don`t believe I do have Jewish History. My history starts with the Lord Jesus.

Marilyn.

(BTW that must be the shortest post I`ve ever seen you do.) (lol)

Shalom, Marilyn.

And, the Master Yeshua` (which is what "Lord Jesus" means) didn't have Jewish History?! Your history started "before the world began," because Paul wrote...

Titus 1:1-4 (KJV)

1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; 3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

And, David wrote,...

Psalm 139:14-17 (KJV)

14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest (microscopic) parts of the earth.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

So, let's investigate the Messiah's Jewish roots, which are YOUR roots, too!

I'd like you to read a little book (76 pages or so) entitled, I Have a Friend Who's Jewish; Do you? It's by Don Goldstein, and it's free from http://www.prophecyrevealed.com. This is not an ad for the book; it's an attempt to help you discover your roots.

 

Edited April 24, 2019 by Retrobyter