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Pagan origins of Easter?


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Hi Betha,

I've never said God's will does not matter, nor would I ever say such a thing. Why would you say something like that to a born again Christian?

I'm not only a Christian, but a Jew, and I know something about appointed days and times.

Paul says in the same chapter "each person must be convinced [about which days]" and "some eat certain foods, some don't" and "some observe days or food or don't to the Lord" and "do nothing to cause others to stumble". The whole chapter is about harmony and unity above saying Saturday is something different than Sunday or Tuesday.

I worship the Lord 7 days weekly.

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The Pagan origins are not in question of this or Christ-mass.

It's the Roman Catholic adoption of them and the ongoing tradition

of keeping them as though they were Christian... that's the problem.

The goddess Astarte is who Easter is named for.

Saturnalia is what Christ mass (Christmas) was supposed to "take over."

A retired Episcopal minister that lives on my postal route asked when I cited

these points "Should the Church not have tried to take over these pagan holidays and done nothing about them?"

We agreed something was better than nothing.

But that never sat well on my spirit.

So I am going to change my reply to: "it's not that we do nothing. We should undermine paganism by converting pagans to Christ...

not by Christianizing their paganism.

I hope his response will not be keeping  with the traditions (of men) and not rocking the boat.

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Betha said:

If you are a Jew all the more reason to know the difference between 'worshipping God' and 'receiving instructions on HIS determined Holy day Lev. 23.....when He tells us to assemble.  We can of course praise and worship Him any day of the week but these other days are not a substitute for the Sabbath. Now - if people were to keep the 7th day Holy as well that would be doing the Will of God. However, gentiles and some Jews have abandoned and rejected the Lord of the Sabbath in favour of another lord  That is the problem.

Hi Betha,

1) I am Jewish, yes.

2) Most Jewish observance is done in the home (and was in Bible times), some is/was done as a congregation.

3) The congregation of Israel, after David/Solomon, was to meet specially at the Temple in Jerusalem. The Temple was destroyed in 70 AD. I've been to Jerusalem but do not go there every Tabernacles, Passover, etc. I assume you keep the Sabbath but do not keep Tabernacles, Passover, etc. since that AND the Sabbath was for Israel forever, not the church. I wouldn't marry my brother's wife and I do not sacrifice animals in Jerusalem.

4) After the Temple was destroyed, and as Jewish Christians severed more and more from synagogue life, Jewish practice added more rules and regulations. It was thought that prayer towards Jerusalem, attending synagogue, etc. would cover sin. Of course, much of the Temple ritual is unneeded for born again Christians--the death and rising of Messiah pays all sin.

5) I wish Sabbath observance would save or create sanctification, but it doesn't. My heart breaks for unsaved Jewish people who worship on Friday/Saturday. My heart soars to know that many who worship on Sundays--Jews and Gentiles--are saved. They also worship on other days, too, though they meet on Sunday to do certain things--any of which they can do any day of the week, at will. and often do. For example, many churches have Wednesday night prayer meetings. I've never gone to a Wednesday night meeting to rebuke the people for meeting outside the Sabbath.

6) You are entitled to have a faith that has you emphasize Shabbos. You aren't (I'm assuming) keeping the Jewish Sabbath, which is performed on Friday night, in the home, with Hebrew prayers and etc. That's how it was done since before the time of Christ. Money could not be handled on Shabbos, so the apostles met early on the first day of the week (Saturday after dusk) to collect money for the poor and etc. -- in the same way, Saturday nights in religious Jewish homes are times of worship and celebration.

7) Not wanting to offend you, but if you meet with a congregation on Saturday morning, that is not what the apostles did in Acts, nor did they meet on Sunday morning, they met on Saturday night (early on the first day of the Jewish week).

I have NOT "rejected the Lord of the Sabbath in favor of another Lord" as you wrote. Please consider how hurtful a remark that is to me, a Jewish person who lost family and friends, and experienced and still experiences persecution and discrimination, over a decision to trust Jesus for salvation. There is One God, I was baptized in His Name, Jesus Christ. The Son of Man is the Lord of the Sabbath, but made it for people to rest, not to make one day more spiritual than others. I love studying the appointed times, feasts and festivals--but magical things do not happen on certain calendar days--God runs a strict calendar, and we learn from it, but it is not salvific.

Would you say I have to be baptized a certain way to be saved? Or eat or not eat certain foods to be saved? Then why would you imply that about Sabbath-keeping? You are entitled to Sabbath-keep without holding me in contempt for not doing so (Romans 14, "the one who does must not regard with contempt the one who does not").

Here's the bigger danger--ANY believer, group, church or cult who says, "We're the REAL Israel so we have to do just what Israel was commanded to do and be" is going to ruin their interpretation of both testaments. I see cults constantly saying nonsense like "They're the 144,000 of Revelation 7" or "They're the REAL Jews". Nonsense, and dangerous.

9 of 10 commands of Exodus 20 are in the NT, nine of "the big ten", like Don't Murder, Don't Adulter. Guess which command is never in the New Testament of those 10?

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2 hours ago, Betha said:

Hi BB, thanks for your reply, nice talking to you, but i can see it being a rather short encounter...not wanting to get into an argument. I would not even know where to start answering the many points you make, so it's best I leave you to your Belief while I hold to mine. I do not hold you or anyone in contempt nor do I judge....we must all work out our own salvation....God is watching ! 

Thank you--I also was not looking for an argument, I'm trying to help you before you destroy yourself with bad doctrine. There's a fine line between faith that allows you to cherish a certain day, and legalism, salvation by works and not by trusting Jesus.

For example, "work out our salvation" does not mean we have to prove something after being born again to get to Heaven. We have hardships on the road but "whoever has trusted in Jesus will not perish, but has now eternal life." God is watching me to benefit me, not to judge me to Hell.

I say to you, with great respect, "If you don't know how to answer the many points I've made" doesn't that mean your doctrine is wrong and you should repent?

Or consider if you would one last question, "Yes, God made the day special, and commanded actions on it for Israel. What must happen on Saturday (Bible study, sermons, congregational worship, tithing) that can't also happen on Thursday, Wednesday or Sunday?"

Sunday worship is NOT the mark of the beast. The mark of the beast is a MARK. Be careful! Make sure you trust Jesus for eternal life, not your Christian deeds!

Respectfully, BB.

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5 hours ago, Betha said:

Thanks again, i like the way we are able to speak kindly to each other but sadly there is either disagreement or mis-understanding....however we are not here to change each other...GOD will do that..

It is interesting how you a Jew have turned to sunday while i a gentile have turned to the Sabbath...very strange indeed. Please note i did not say i could not answer you, but didn't know where to start, you raised so many points, all important. Also let me say i'm not turned to 'jewish ways of serving God but to the LORD HIMSELF.....as you perhaps know the difference....so no need to worry about my salvation because i do not rely on the 'OT works performance/observation/ rituals etc. nor on the 'good works only'...Yashua shone a different light on these in the NT.

We are here to change each other, it's called "reprove, exhort, encourage, teach, love..."

I didn't turn from Saturday to Sunday, I turned from the Law to Christ. Are you familiar with the Hebrews passage where it says Jesus is the Sabbath rest (from works/Law/self-effort for salvation) for those who believe? And do you know that Romans 7 says "we died to the Law to be wed to Jesus"? The Sabbath command is in the Law of Moses, and is not found in the NT. Can I eat all things as Jesus told? Can I not eat unclean animals as the Law told? Should I keep Jewish Kosher laws that add many laws to the OT Law on eating?

And I don't think I said "I do not honor Sabbath/I do not keep the Sabbath", rather I'm pointing to the folly of 1) getting approval from the One who died for us while we were strangers and enemies by day-keeping 2) assuming it's less significant to hold a congregational worship/teaching meeting on a different day of the week. If I honor the Sabbath and also attend a Gentile church on Sunday, am I condemned somehow? I'm not sure I understand what you're wanting to tell me about Sunday-keeping, is it sinful?

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Something to remember... since the beginning God has been giving mankind signs.

What is astrology began as the Hebrew Mazzaroth. And one (who knows how to avoid 

pagan tampering) can see in it the prophecy of the coming Messiah etc.

But it became (human interpretation of it) corrupt and God warned  against

it.

Astarte (Esther* / Easter) is a blatant homage to the non-Hebrew / non-Christian astrology.

How mockingly fitting that the church of man has overshadowed the greatest event in time and eternity (the resurrection of Jesus Christ)

with Easter. The devil must laugh and laugh.

*Not to be confused with the book of Esther

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1 hour ago, Betha said:

Friend i would love to speak more openly and clearly but 'finding fault with the 'Establishment'is not allowed or encouraged and those who do will be silenced....that has always been the way of this world who follows it's own god and evil ministers 2 Cor 11.v13, 14. IF one studies the Word of God and obeys it they will be led to the Truth....the success is in Obeying the Word and not be Hearers only Jas 1v22, or they are deceived and in error.

We are admonished to be cleansed and purified, to make difference between what is holy and what is not holy Lev 10v10, not to be unequally yoked or serve 2 God's or Master's at the same time, which is what happens when we ignore/reject or try to mix/interpret God's Word to fit our own understanding. 

What makes you think Christians have only 9 Commandments ? there is no such scripture or instruction....nor was there any change of DAYS since Creation.  does any man have the right to change what GOD has established ? there has been change to the law of how to observe it but that never referred to days....i have seen no scripture for such.

Look, i'm not going to argue  and we are obviously divided, so there is no need to answer my post. Let's leave it to the LORD to sort us out !

Thank you for asking, let me share another thought or so?

We don't have 9 commandments, we have none. James says (Chapter 2) breaking one law breaks them all. I can be sent home for work for drugs, alcohol, fighting with the boss--any one of four laws broken and I'm "out".

James's point--either keep the whole Law to be saved or be saved another way. If I honor Sabbath but do not marry my brother's wife, I've broken the Law!

The Decalogue is vital, sure--but while the NT reminds us to not commit murder, adulter or steal, and while it sums the Law as loving others and loving God, it does NOT say "Don't work on the Sabbath" and Gentiles were specifically told by all the apostles after debate and reconciliation, "Don't do X, Y, Z" but they also did not say, "Don't miss Shabbat!"

Now, I've been emphasizing that all days are alike--but if we look at this the other way, I believe you honor the Sabbath as you see fit, but I guess you don't observe non-Saturday Sabbaths?

A “Sabbath” is a biblical holy day of rest including Sabbaths not on Friday/Saturday. In the month of Nisan, extra Sabbaths are the first and last days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread (matzo), Nisan 15 and 22. Do you do anything special on Nisan 15 and 22 or only if those days fall on Saturdays?

Jesus died on Preparation Day--all four gospels teach this, but it wasn't Preparation Day for a Friday/Saturday Sabbath, He died on a Thursday, Preparation Day for slaughtering the Passover lambs. God told the people Passover is so special, that Nisan is the first and head of the months. It's a special day and biblically, a Shabbos. Do you keep that also? If you don't keep the first day and last day of Unleavened Bread as Sabbaths (they sometimes fall on Saturday, sometimes not), you are breaking those Sabbaths--it's the same Hebrew word. Do you follow me here?

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On 4/21/2019 at 8:23 PM, Betha said:

that is exactly what one expects the churches of the world to say and do.....what is wrong with PASSOVER ?        how many times a year does it happen ?

At my church back in the States we had a Messianic Jewish couple come and teach us about the Jewish Passover, ...it was very interesting and enlightening, ...enjoyed it very much, however, at the end the couple explained the Seder, ...while it illustrated, explained their  coming Messiah, ...OUR Lord Jesus Christ., ...was only for the Jews.

They explained, as the Church knows, a Crucified and dead Messiah is of no value to us, ...the only way the Messiah is of any benefit to us is if He Resurrects, ...THAT is our proof, THAT is our Rock, THAT is our confirmation that the Propitiation has been made for us/all sinners, that proves the Holiness, the Righteous that Father demands for a human to be able to stand in His Presence was satisfied/accepted, ...the Sacrifice of His Only Begotten Son, ...Jesus Christ.

They also pointed out that the Jews scattered all over the world have celebrated Passover every year for thousands of years, why, because God said, "Do this as a remembrance of Me delivering you, My people, out of the slavery and bondage of Egypt," ...the problem is they didn't see or understand their Messiah illustrated in the Seder, ...therefore blindness has come upon Israel, so that we Gentiles can receive their Messiah.

So yes, the Jews celebrate the Passover, and we the Church learn and grow in the Grace and Knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ by the types illustrated in it, but we, the Church, celebrate the Resurrection, even though it was accomplished by Jesus 2,000 years ago, it's an opportunity for us to Do This in Remembrance of Me and celebrate Communion with fellow Saints, ...what better time than on Resurrection Sunday to remember and celebrate our personal Resurrection from the dead that He accomplished for us, ...with Him?  

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On 5/6/2019 at 7:23 PM, Betha said:

 We need to put traditional teaching under the microscope to see the flaws and errors so well hidden by UNgodly men of old. The heart of man is not to be trusted Jer 17, nor every spirit.

Does that include women too, ...Mary Baker Eddy, Ellen G. White, Helena Blavatsky, Aimee McPherson, ...et. al.?

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33 minutes ago, Betha said:

It won't matter which way you put it...error is error and HOLINESS can not exist and interact with UNholiness. YOU are on Home-turf my friend, and can say what agrees with Establishment...see what happened to Yashua for trying to teach/correct the Pharisees ?  You do not see the dangerous time we live in . May God help you on your journey ! 

Holiness comes from the cross and resurrection of Yeshua/Jesus, not from avoiding work and/or worshiping on the Sabbath. There are specific passages on contrasting Sabbath observance with God-sourced holiness in both testaments.

Pray about your doctrine? If many Christians say your doctrine is wrong, it may be wrong. I'm not a Pharisee arguing with Yeshua. The Pharisees tried to source holiness/salvation by Law-keeping, tradition-keeping and Sabbath-keeping, that was Jesus's main point!

Pray about our conversation, I will. Jesus will show us both truth!

PS. The dangerous time we live in I DO see. It has to do in large part with a need for revival (Spirit) and reformation (bad doctrine repentance).

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