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Questions about Noahs Flood (is it logical or just magic you have to believe)


Leyla

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3 hours ago, Who me said:

The article can be found@


https://creation.com/a-biblically-based-cratering-theory

Unfortunetly for Joulre2abba, it does not mention water from the firament splashing up and marking the moon. That is pure make believe/childs story.

 

The subsequent posts from me on the topic will answer your too-quick-to-make-a-judgement-before-knowing-all.. post.

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On 4/28/2019 at 9:09 PM, Jayne said:

[1]  How can a planet be habitable after the Flood?  If the water/land ratios were the same pre-Flood as now, and I believe they are, 75-80% of the planet was/is already water.  Land masses today [continents, islands, etc.] comprise about 20-25%.  Couple that information with the Biblical fact that Noah and his family and those animals were on that ark for a little over a year and one can conclude that after the 40 days of rain from above and water surging up from below, and the 5-6 months that the waters took to overcome even the mountain top, the earth [the land] was settling down back to habitability in the last few months. 

Major changes in the earth today can happen in mere weeks and days.  It's been seen - provable, observable.  So 2-3 months of recovery from the Flood is time enough for God to make the world habitable again - at least enough for life to start over.

Genesis 7:20 "The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than fifteen cubits. ".   15 cubits is 6,85 meter. The mount everest is 8 848 m tall. The radius of the earth is 6371071,03 m = 6371,07103 km. Lets assume that the earth is a perfect sphere, which its not. If we take the radius of the earth, add in the height of the mountain and add an additional 6,85 meter = 6379,92588 km. The volume of our earth is (4 / 3) * 3.14 *6371,07103 = 1083243147129,12 km^3. The volume of the earth with the flood would be (4/3) * 3,14 * 6379,92588 = 1087766072607 km^3.     1087766072607 km^3 - 1083243147129,12 km^3 = 4522925477.88  km^3. Now lets assume that one third of the calculated flood water, was actually not water but land, mountains etc, that were above the radius of the earth and were calculated into its volume. That would be 4522925477,88 km^3 * 0,66 = 2985130815.4 km^3. According to this calculation the total volume of the flood water, is  2985130815,4 km^3 or 716170968,641578 miles^3. According to wiki "   en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_distribution_on_Earth   " the total volume of all water right now is 332500000 miles^3. The volume of the flood water minus the volume of the water we have now is 716170968,641578 miles^3 - 332500000 miles^3 = 383670968,641578 miles^3 or 1599210358,441008 km^3.  If these calculations are accurate, then it would mean that 383670968,641578 miles^3 or 1599210358,441008 km^3 of water are missing. It would mean that the total volume of the water increased by 215% and then suddenly dissapeared. I cant believe that a few months are enough to make the water dissapear. There is also not enough time for a new ecosystem to develop. The only explanation, that I can think of, is magic.

On 4/28/2019 at 9:09 PM, Jayne said:

[2]  How did all the sea life survive?  The life that God killed was anything that lived totally on land and breathed through it's nose.  That's what Genesis said.  And that included birds.  Sea life was untouched.  Obviously, with great churning of waters, there may have been some mixing of salt and fresh waters.  There are some fish and sea creatures who can live in that today.  Some can't.  But God kept enough of them alive to create a food source of the people and birds and creatures he saved on the ark.   There was no way for sea life to get into the ark and Noah and his family were going to need something to eat immediately. 

A flood, is as catastrophic for water animals, as it is for us. The only way I can think of, that could make all sealife survive, is the use of magic.

On 4/28/2019 at 9:09 PM, Jayne said:

[4.]  Even if we assume that the animals survived and had enough oxygen, food etc... how did they find their way back home, to the different regions in all the other continents?    Well, that's an easy one.  They did not have a home to go back TO.  There were no seven continents "in the beginning".  God created one land mass.  Science agrees.  Science calls the original landmass Pangea and both science and the Bible agree that that supercontinent broke into the seven continents we know today.  The Bible and science just don't agree on how it happened.

 

Plate tectonics kept going even after the Flood was long over.  Climate changes drastically.  An Ice Age came.  Dinosaurs died out.  Extremely large mammals died out.  Giant plant eaters died out.  The earth changed.

If we agree that there was an original landmass, then we also have to agree on the timescale and that the original landmass had its shape millions of years ago and that the earth is not a few thousand years old.

 

On 4/28/2019 at 9:09 PM, Jayne said:

[5]  If we world was flooded on this big scale, why cant we find any evidence?? Do you think our scientists are really so incompetent, that they cant find even one evidence for it?     There's actually quite a lot of evidence for the Great Flood and science knows about it.  Here's one piece - the fossil record.  All those layers and layers of rock found everywhere that have massive graveyards of animals that all died together.  Creationists and many scientists who believe the Bible see an incredibly rich evidence pool of creatures representing every creature we know of dying en masse.  The higher the layer, the more advanced the creature.  Animals who were intelligent enough to run who had a huge self-preservation instinct would be at the top.  Example, clams on the bottom layer and dinosaurs/Sabre-tooth cats on the top.  

If this is evolution and the clams lived 4.5 billion years ago, why do clams today and clam 4.5 billion years ago look the same?  Why do ALL creatures in the fossil record look the same as they do today?  [For those that are not extinct].

The main thing is that God, in his sovereignty, can do anything.  I trust that.  I trust him.

There were many mass extinctions on our earth so there are also many mass graveyards of animals. I also dont agree that old fossils look the same as they do now. "       evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evograms_03    " here is a link , that shows how land mammals slowly evolved into whales. I also never heard that we found something that looks today, exactly as it looked 4,5 billion years ago.                         

Edited by Leyla
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On 5/1/2019 at 2:10 AM, Joulre2abba said:

The water subsided before those on the ark even got off. Except for water that remained in low lying areas.

Where did the water go? I made a calculations one post previously and the volume of the water is absolutely huge, it cant just dissapear.

 

On 5/1/2019 at 2:10 AM, Joulre2abba said:

A lot didn't. The deluge was sudden. It fell so heavily from above the clouds. Up to that time the land was watered from dew. There had never been rains from the clouds. The waters had been stored in what was called the firmament. It acted like a terrarium.

Until the day that the firmament broke open and down came all that water all at once. It hit the earth with such force that it splashed so high as to reach the moon and left water spots on it.

The air was stirred and caused violent turbulent waters that ran swiftly passed rocks and created mountains, it upturned rocks or left them at an angle.. the water carried many sea life into soft dirt areas and buried them swiftly.

The ark, built like an elongated box was made of floating wood and covered with tar bobbed around like a fisher's sinker that during the turbulence always rose to the surface.

The findings at the poles indicated that at one time that area was like Hawaii. The flood deluge caused such a swift atmospheric change at the poles that quick froze the animals there. One was found with plants in it's mouth of the kind that grows in warm temperatures.

Its not that alot of sealife did not survive. A global flood on this scale would definitely eradicate the sealife.

 

On 5/1/2019 at 2:10 AM, Joulre2abba said:

During the flood all selected animals were on the ark. They were all young enough that none of the carnivores had learned to see any of it's other animals in the ark as food.. they survived on milk from those animals that gave milk. And eggs from egg producing animals.

When they got off the ark. The plants available to eat were edible water plants until the land produced grasses and plants to eat. In the way that God kept the lions from eating Daniel when he'd been put in the lion's den, the meat eating animals did not eat any animals in order that all species survive.

Cows and chickens take the chemicals from their food and use that to make eggs and milk. If they dont have anything to eat then there are no eggs and milk. The energy transfer of food is not 100% so there would be a natural loss of energy. The animals on the ark could not live in basically a perpetual machine of eggs and milk. I also strongly suspect that there would be no grass or plants for a very long time after a global flood.

 

On 5/1/2019 at 2:10 AM, Joulre2abba said:

There wasn't an oxygen problem. The food was plentiful for that amount of young animals at that time. Just like they survived on the ark, they survived on land.

If there is no greenlife, how can there be no oxygen problem? There is strong evidence, that the land was dead and cold earth when they left the ark, it wasnt a plentiful enviroment.

 

On 5/1/2019 at 2:10 AM, Joulre2abba said:

Do you really think that the atheist evolutionist will admit to finding anything that supports the Biblical record? 

But there are some Christians that have done research in the field and have found evidence. Dr. Carl Baugh is one of them. The answers that I've given to your questions come from such as he and others to be found on the internet.

Plus any one can look at the Grand Canyon and other such places that show natural waterlines in the rock which points to the receding of water as from a great flood. The receding time happened at a much shorter scale than the evolutionists say that it happened. They use measurements of it happening over millions of years. The Egyptian Phoenix has waterlines that didn't take millions of years for a flood that surrounded it to recede.

But many of the evolutionist claims in using a scale of millions or thousands of years for something to happen have been proved wrong at the recovery of the area around Mount St. Helens. If it were up to the evolutionists they'd say that recovery like that could only happen over thousands of years.

Why should they not admit it, if they find something that supports the bible record? I think its very mean to assume that atheistic scientists or evolutionists try to conceal information. I respect people that spend lots of years studying their profession and also work hard to progress the knowledge of mankind. Ill check out drl carl baugh and your comment about the receeding waterlines on the Grand Canyon I think noone tries to actively disprove the bible, the evidence just points to the opposite of what the bible tells us. I could not find a single scientific peer reviewed paper ( that was well received), that supports Noahs Flood yet, but I will check out your references thank you.     [EDIT: I will also check out the links the others gave me but it will take some time until Im done with it]

Edited by Leyla
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1 hour ago, Leyla said:

The only explanation, that I can think of, is magic.

As a math/science teacher of over three decades, I was going to check your calculations, but when I got to this statement of yours, I realized it would be futile.

You go ahead and believe in magic.  I'll believe God.

  • Huh?  I don't get it. 1
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   It's not about magic - it really happened. Everything in the Word actually happened.

   There were always things in the Word that didn't sit perfectly well w/ me before I knew God, even during times when I was really trying to live for Him (and I'm not saying you don't know God; I'm just trying to urge you to really inquire of the Lord). After God revealed His Holy Spirit to me, He explained those parts of His Word that were really hard for me to accept.

   I'm not saying I perfectly understand God's Word. It is so incredibly profound and powerful, that probably none of us could ever fully understand every mystery It contains (especially during this life). But I understand It WAY more than I ever used to, and God's shown me enough that I fully believe that everything in it is 100% Truth.

   The Holy Spirit is our greatest Witness. If you ask God to explain anything you don't understand in his word, He WILL explain it to you in a way you understand (but not always according to our schedules, and how attentive we are to His instruction can also play a role in how quickly we assimilate the lessons). If we're covered by the Blood of Yeshua/Jesus, and we're not harboring unconfessed sins, then we may boldly approach the Throne of Grace; and if what we ask is in accordance w/ God's will, then we know we have the answer to our petition. And since knowing and understanding God's Word leads people to salvation (and it's God's will that as many should be saved as possible), it must be His will for us to understand His Word.

   There actually is a lot of scientific evidence for the flood of Genesis, as well as for many other things in the Bible. However, many claims are asserted as fact in mainstream science, even though there's no definitive evidence for them (I personally don't consider these particular scientists to, in fact, 'be' scientists, since they've abandoned the scientific method, which is supposed to be the backbone of science), and, many points of evidence for the Bible are suppressed by mainstream science. There are very good books out there which give great supporting evidence for God's Word (much better than any of the stuff "claimed" as evidence by critics of the Bible, in my eyes), but a lot of publishers won't touch them, because the prevailing attitude of mainstream, modern culture is one of hostility towards God and anything to do w/ Him.

   There's a war going on, and it spills into the affairs of humans. The devil will do anything to try to get people to not believe the Word.

   We live in very dark times so this anti - Bible/God movement has gained a lot of momentum (but God and His followers are also hard at work).

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17 hours ago, Leyla said:

Where did the water go? I made a calculations one post previously and the volume of the water is absolutely huge, it cant just dissapear.

It's interesting that you use the word "disappear" because there is the natural case of water evaporating. But I'd say that the majority reason is due ot  underground pockets where the water went.. as big as they may be, it's feasible that there are very large pockets of water underground.

Since I'm speaking in general here, to get the numbered calculations.. you can consult on the wide web.

17 hours ago, Leyla said:

Its not that alot of sealife did not survive. A global flood on this scale would definitely eradicate the sealife.

Due to the violence of the water, yes.

17 hours ago, Leyla said:

Cows and chickens take the chemicals from their food and use that to make eggs and milk. If they dont have anything to eat then there are no eggs and milk. The energy transfer of food is not 100% so there would be a natural loss of energy. The animals on the ark could not live in basically a perpetual machine of eggs and milk. I also strongly suspect that there would be no grass or plants for a very long time after a global flood.

Noah had 120 years to make the ark and grow food as well as store it on the ark. The practicality of it unfortunately is not detailed in the Bible so anything said beyond that is speculation. Here's mine. They had seed and animal fertilizer so they could have built dedicated bins and packed them with dirt to grow food.

As for "after the flood" there's the detail in the Bible of Moses releasing a bird .. it flew about but returned. He did that several times until the bird brought back a twig with sprouted leaves on it. I'd venture to say that during that time, they ate from the produce of their ark-bins garden.

17 hours ago, Leyla said:

If there is no greenlife, how can there be no oxygen problem? There is strong evidence, that the land was dead and cold earth when they left the ark, it wasnt a plentiful enviroment.

This is from a website: "Despite the common belief that vegetation is responsible for the presence of oxygen in the atmosphere, this is not stoichiometrically sound. There is simply not enough reduced carbon in the vegetation on the planet to balance out the vast amount of oxygen in the air. Put simply, the life cycle of plants is a part of the carbon cycle, but they are really dependent upon the atmosphere rather than the other way around. Burning off (oxidizing) all the plant life on earth would use up only a small fraction of all the oxygen in the atmosphere - less than 1%."

My personal response is: If oxygen comes only from plants.. how does anyone survive in Alaska?

Before the flood the temperature was evenly distributed due to the firmament that surrounded the Earth, creating a terrarium effect.

The collapse of the firmament, and subsequent flood changed the temperature world-wide in that there were the poles that were cold, while the lands of the Equator were warm. 

17 hours ago, Leyla said:

Why should they not admit it, if they find something that supports the bible record?

If you think that they would admit something that supports the Biblical record, then provide the website article.

17 hours ago, Leyla said:

I think its very mean to assume that atheistic scientists or evolutionists try to conceal information.

If you think a Christian is being mean about it, then why come to Christians for the information when according to you it would be readily available at any atheistic scientific study about the Biblical account of Noah's flood.

17 hours ago, Leyla said:

I respect people that spend lots of years studying their profession and also work hard to progress the knowledge of mankind.

In that case you would respect the studies that Christians have done about Noah's flood. Men like Faulkner, Brown, Baugh that I know of.. plus others out there too.

- - -

Leyla said:

Ill check out drl carl baugh and your comment about the receeding waterlines on the Grand Canyon

Just in case you didn't know.. dark green makes the words in black difficult to read.

- - -

Leyla said:

I think noone tries to actively disprove the bible,

Excuse me?.. have you read some of the opposing opinions that have been posted to me?

- - -

Leyla said

the evidence just points to the opposite of what the bible tells us.

The evidence that you speak of comes from the atheistic community. Which proves my point.

- - -

Leyla said:

I could not find a single scientific peer reviewed paper ( that was well received), that supports Noahs Flood yet, but I will check out your references thank you.   

Walter Brown was formerly an Atheist, and now a Christian, so you might especially want to read his findings. The fact that he made his studies after he became a Christian proves again my point that the Atheists don't provide the information that supports the Bible.

(my responses end here)

  [EDIT: I will also check out the links the others gave me but it will take some time until Im done with it]

Edited 16 hours ago by Leyla

 

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18 hours ago, Jayne said:

As a math/science teacher of over three decades, I was going to check your calculations, but when I got to this statement of yours, I realized it would be futile.

You go ahead and believe in magic.  I'll believe God.

Both God and magic seem to be something that is seperate from the natural world so I dont understand why its a bad comparison. Is there another word like magic for the things God did/does/will do? If you dont want to respond to the things I wrote then dont. But making the efford to post in this thread just to devalue the things I said, after I tried my best to examine the flood, is really mean.

 

1 hour ago, Joulre2abba said:

It's interesting that you use the word "disappear" because there is the natural case of water evaporating. But I'd say that the majority reason is due ot  underground pockets where the water went.. as big as they may be, it's feasible that there are very large pockets of water underground.

 

Water evaporating is one thing and its observed. However if my calculation from earlier is accurate, then the volume of the water increased by around 215% and suddenly dissapeared. Such huge water amounts cant just evaporate in thin air in such high rates.

 

1 hour ago, Joulre2abba said:

Noah had 120 years to make the ark and grow food as well as store it on the ark. The practicality of it unfortunately is not detailed in the Bible so anything said beyond that is speculation. Here's mine. They had seed and animal fertilizer so they could have built dedicated bins and packed them with dirt to grow food.

arkencounter.com        I found this website about a guy that build Noahs Ark with the appropriate size. It took them 1000 workers,  modern power tools, trucks, huge cranes, easily avaiable ressources etc and 2 years.  8 people survived so lets make a 10 out of it for easier math and assume that everyone helped building the arc .  In theory and in our modern time, this is how long it would take one person to build the arc: 2 * 1000 = 2000, so it would take 10 people 200 years, so its somewhat close to 120. However, that calculation is highly theoretical and involves the use of modern technology. Without that technology it would certainly take thousands of years, or it would take  tens of thousands of slaves working day and night. There is not enough time to build it, so how can there be enough time to grow food, prepare it, produce fertilizers, store seeds etc.

 

1 hour ago, Margo73 said:

I really do not understand why Leyla and others are trying to prove or disprove what God said/did .. if one has faith, one would believe that if God said He did it, He did it and with God, ALL things are possible .. wouldn't time be better spent attempting to resolve a real world problem such as homelessness, starvation, terrorism, ... and so many other problems man "created .. perpetrated and perpetuates" than debating a "done deal that Noah and the flood DID happen" .. in continuing to debate the undebatable, I think Christian participants are risking losing their faith unless they remain in 100% accordance with God's Holy Spirit inspired Word and Truth .. strengthen your faith rather than risk lessening it or even losing it .. God said and God did .. the end .. 

If we dont look for proof and accept everything, how can we ever hope to find the truth? How are we supposed to know what faith is true, what aspects of a faith are not true or which faith will lead  you to a bad life/afterlife? If we assume that one religion is true, then it would mean that all the other religions are false, because they contradict each other. Our afterlife and spiritual being is depended on finding the true faith, so I do think that its a problem that is so severe that it can be compared to homelessness, starvation, terrorism etc.

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3 minutes ago, Leyla said:

Water evaporating is one thing and its observed. However if my calculation from earlier is accurate, then the volume of the water increased by around 215% and suddenly dissapeared. Such huge water amounts cant just evaporate in thin air in such high rates.

I haven't ever heard that the flood waters suddenly disappeared. As I pointed to, there is the Biblical content that the waters receded over time. If you'd read that, then your post to me of someone else claiming a sudden disappearance should be addressed to them.

I'll respond to the other that you address to me on a separate post.

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8 minutes ago, Leyla said:

arkencounter.com        I found this website about a guy that build Noahs Ark with the appropriate size. It took them 1000 workers,  modern power tools, trucks, huge cranes, easily avaiable ressources etc and 2 years.  8 people survived so lets make a 10 out of it for easier math and assume that everyone helped building the arc .  In theory and in our modern time, this is how long it would take one person to build the arc: 2 * 1000 = 2000, so it would take 10 people 200 years, so its somewhat close to 120. However, that calculation is highly theoretical and involves the use of modern technology. Without that technology it would certainly take thousands of years, or it would take  tens of thousands of slaves working day and night.

The matter of it taking "thousands of years" is based on the modern technology.. all done without God involved at all. What those modern men did doesn't prove anything but that they could only do it at their own pace.

But what has to be entered into the discussion is that God planned the flood and the building of the ark.. And God called Noah to build it.

So forgive me if I bring in my faith in God into this discussion. I will fall upon the verse that states "This is impossible with men but not impossible for God."

We must remember that we are talking about God who created the world and all in it over the span of seven days time. 

8 minutes ago, Leyla said:

There is not enough time to build it, so how can there be enough time to grow food, prepare it, produce fertilizers, store seeds etc.

They lived a farm life, so they always had food stored up and fertilizers to use for composting all the time. We in our modern lives go every week to buy our groceries. We don't store up any food. What they do on a regular basis looks to us like a daunting task.

There's also the matter of God's blessing to multiply their vegetables that they had. We read of Isaac who planted seed and received a full harvest that was exceptional during famine. We also see the multiplying of food by Jesus when he had just five loaves and two fish, enough to feed thousands of people.

I shudder to think how things would have turned out if God asked us.. our modern thinking.. to build an ark, and come up with food and supplies for 8 family members plus the amount of animals to feed and live with us for one year.

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1 hour ago, Leyla said:

Both God and magic seem to be something that is seperate from the natural world so I dont understand why its a bad comparison. Is there another word like magic for the things God did/does/will do? If you dont want to respond to the things I wrote then dont. But making the efford to post in this thread just to devalue the things I said, after I tried my best to examine the flood, is really mean.

God and magic cannot be compared.

God is supernatural because he is not a created thing.  He is sovereign, holy, all-present, all-knowledge, and all-powerful.  He is good and everything he does is good and holy.

Magic is not real - in terms of humans being able to control nature and the spiritual realm.  For those that practice it - modern day witches like Wiccans and such - demonic forces can come into play and demons are definitely real and can do real things.  And it's never for good.  Demons are under the control of the devil, ergo, any dabbling in magic will only end badly.  The bible says to stay away from things that that.  Magic did not create the world and magic did not cause nor control the flood. 

God is not magic and magic is not God nor of God.

God is holy and all-powerful.

Magic is of the occult and involves demonic forces.

If I offended you, I am sorry.  

 

Edited by Jayne
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