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Questions about Noahs Flood (is it logical or just magic you have to believe)

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1 hour ago, Jostler said:

all I really need to "see" is entropy.  It's such a well established principle, I simply  cannot imagine evolution could possibly run against every other process we know and add information/complexity successfully.

This is venturing a little from the OP, and it may be better to start another thread. I've already asked @Who me if they are interested in discussing evolution in a new thread, but I'll give them some time to decide.

In any case, the earth is not a closed system, it is constantly receiving energy from the sun. So it is entirely possible for living things to increase in complexity. This happens all the time during embryogenesis - what starts as a single cell becomes increasingly more complex as cells divide and differentiate until you have an organism ready for birth/hatching/etc that may consist of trillions of cells - pretty complex!

1 hour ago, Jostler said:

(huge percentage of mutations are detrimental if not deadly  to any  organism)

Yes, mutations are sometimes harmful, and some are even deadly. However, neutral mutations (with respect to fitness) are much more common (since mutations in protein-coding sequences make up a very small portion of many genomes) and produce the raw material required for adaptation through natural selection. The idea that natural selection is the ONLY process required for evolution was discarded decades ago (see neutral theory - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutral_theory_of_molecular_evolution).

 

1 hour ago, Jostler said:

There's a very  compelling evidence found in  the idea of irreducible complexity...plenty  of mind bogglingly impossible statistical studies modeling  the  impossibility of assembling  the proteins necessary for life by random  forces.

There are a couple of things I'd like to address in this statement. First, I agree that the molecular assembly (proteins, nucleic acids, lipids, and others) required for the first cells is extremely difficult for me to imagine occurring WITHOUT a Creator. However, I believe that once those first cells were in place, naturalistic explanations for the development of life over time become much more feasible. While I don't think there is sufficient evidence to support a purely naturalistic origin of life, I believe the evidence is in favor of God creating through the process of evolution.

In the words of 19th century priest (and several other interests), Charles Kingsley:

Quote

Shall we quarrel with Science if she should show how those words (Darwin’s) are true? What, in one word, should we have to say but this?–We knew of old that God was so wise that He could make all things; but behold, He is so much wiser than even that, that He can make all things make themselves.

 

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On 7/15/2019 at 11:58 PM, one.opinion said:

This is venturing a little from the OP, and it may be better to start another thread. I've already asked @Who me if they are interested in discussing evolution in a new thread, but I'll give them some time to decide.

In any case, the earth is not a closed system, it is constantly receiving energy from the sun. So it is entirely possible for living things to increase in complexity. This happens all the time during embryogenesis - what starts as a single cell becomes increasingly more complex as cells divide and differentiate until you have an organism ready for birth/hatching/etc that may consist of trillions of cells - pretty complex!

Yes, mutations are sometimes harmful, and some are even deadly. However, neutral mutations (with respect to fitness) are much more common (since mutations in protein-coding sequences make up a very small portion of many genomes) and produce the raw material required for adaptation through natural selection. The idea that natural selection is the ONLY process required for evolution was discarded decades ago (see neutral theory - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutral_theory_of_molecular_evolution).

 

There are a couple of things I'd like to address in this statement. First, I agree that the molecular assembly (proteins, nucleic acids, lipids, and others) required for the first cells is extremely difficult for me to imagine occurring WITHOUT a Creator. However, I believe that once those first cells were in place, naturalistic explanations for the development of life over time become much more feasible. While I don't think there is sufficient evidence to support a purely naturalistic origin of life, I believe the evidence is in favor of God creating through the process of evolution.

In the words of 19th century priest (and several other interests), Charles Kingsley:

 

You refer to naturalistic explanations, yet there are two waves of appearances of species fully intact, all without fossil precursor. Firstly the Ediacaran small shellies, then the early Cambrian Explosion of new species. 

On the balance of logic a creation event seems more feasible, especially considering you already acknowledge the first biological species was supernaturally created. 

Edited by ARGOSY

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17 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

You refer to naturalistic explanations, yet there are two waves of appearances of species fully intact, all without fossil precursor. Firstly the Ediacaran small shellies, then the early Cambrian Explosion of new species. 

I'm not a paleontologist, by any stretch, but I do believe it is a fair point that there are significant gaps in the record of those very ancient fossils. However, I'm sure it could be argued that the Ediacarans were precursors to the Cambrians. Also, there are older fossils than the Ediacarans that are likely to be considered precursors. It is also important to remember that the Ediacaran period lasted nearly 100 million years and the Cambrian "explosion" lasted an estimated 15-25 million years. These organisms did not appear all at the same time as would be expected for separate creation events.

27 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

On the balance of logic a creation event seems more feasible

I'm not sure if you are arguing for a single creation event 6000 years ago (young earth creation), or multiple creation events hundreds of millions of years ago and separated by millions of years (progressive creation). Out of the two options, I would say the progressive creation model fits the evidence better, but I don't remember you arguing this position before. Personally, I believe that creation through evolution is the best fit for the available evidence.

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27 minutes ago, one.opinion said:

I'm not a paleontologist, by any stretch, but I do believe it is a fair point that there are significant gaps in the record of those very ancient fossils. However, I'm sure it could be argued that the Ediacarans were precursors to the Cambrians. Also, there are older fossils than the Ediacarans that are likely to be considered precursors. It is also important to remember that the Ediacaran period lasted nearly 100 million years and the Cambrian "explosion" lasted an estimated 15-25 million years. These organisms did not appear all at the same time as would be expected for separate creation events.

I'm not sure if you are arguing for a single creation event 6000 years ago (young earth creation), or multiple creation events hundreds of millions of years ago and separated by millions of years (progressive creation). Out of the two options, I would say the progressive creation model fits the evidence better, but I don't remember you arguing this position before. Personally, I believe that creation through evolution is the best fit for the available evidence.

I believe in compressed timeframes, as per a literal view of the biblical lineages since Adam. Thus all biological life was created about 6500 years ago. (I'm not actually YEC,  I'm more literal than that, believing a dark watery world existed before creation week as described in Genesis 1)

Under that compressed time frames model, bacteria and eukaryotes would have had multiple generations before the first small Shelley fossilized. Not only that, these primitive bacteria would have been seeded into deeper and more remote locations. The small shellies  being in the deeper ocean would have been fossilized before the Cambrian Explosion. 

There's a small yet hidden location possibly in the Middle East and/or Siberia that I will call the "island of greater Eden" from where radiations of more terrestrial animals would inhabit the growing landmasses as ice caps and glaciation expanded in the far south. 

 

In summary I believe in one creation event and compressed timeframes, with radiation events from a terrestrial location as the world became more terrestrial. 

Edited by ARGOSY

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I know much has been said and indeed, volumes have been written about the Biblical account of the Flood.  I compiled some Q/As from reference sources and perhaps what follows below, although a bit lengthy, may be of help:

 

Why was there a Flood?

The earth had become filled with violence and ungodly people (Ge 6:13)

 

When was the Flood?

2370 B.C.E

 

Was the Flood localized or world-wide?

This was no local flash flood or cloudburst. In fact, the Greek word used in the Bible to refer to the Flood, or Deluge, is ka·ta·kly·smosʹ, a cataclysm. (Lu 17:27) Local floods come and go in a matter of hours or a few days at the most; this one lasted over a year, the greater portion of which was required for the water to subside. How unreasonable to believe that Noah spent perhaps 50 years building a huge vessel of approximately 40,000 cu m (1,400,000 cu ft) for the survival of his family and a few animals through a mere local flood. If only a comparatively small area was affected, why the need of bringing into the ark specimens of “every living creature of every sort of flesh” in order to “preserve offspring alive on the surface of the entire earth”? (Ge 6:19; 7:3) Definitely this was a global deluge, the like of which had never occurred before nor has since. “The waters overwhelmed the earth so greatly that all the tall mountains that were under the whole heavens came to be covered. Up to fifteen cubits [c. 6.5 m; 22 ft] the waters overwhelmed them and the mountains became covered.” (Ge 7:19, 20) “The end of all flesh has come before me,” God said, hence “I will wipe every existing thing that I have made off the surface of the ground.” And it was just so. “Everything in which the breath of the force of life was active in its nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground, died . . . only Noah and those who were with him in the ark kept on surviving.”—Ge 6:13; 7:4, 22, 23.

 

Were people warned of the coming Flood?

The Deluge did not come suddenly without warning. Years of time were spent building the ark, time that Noah the “preacher of righteousness” also used in warning that wicked generation. (2Pe 2:5) Finally the time limit was up “in the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month.” The “male and female of every sort of flesh” had been brought into the ark with Noah’s family, as well as a sufficient food supply for all, and “after that God shut the door.” Then “the floodgates of the heavens were opened.” (Ge 7:11, 16)

 

How long did the Flood last?

There was an incessant torrential downpour for “forty days and forty nights”; “the waters continued overwhelming the earth” a hundred and fifty days. (Ge 7:4, 12, 24) Five months after the downpour began, the ark “came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.” (Ge 8:4) It was nearly two and a half months later before “the tops of the mountains appeared” (Ge 8:5), another three months before Noah removed the ark’s covering to see that the earth had practically drained (Ge 8:13), and nearly two months later when the door was opened and the survivors set foot on dry ground once again.—Ge 8:14-18.

 Noah and his family entered the ark in the 600th year of Noah’s life, the 2nd month (October-November), the 17th day. (Ge 7:11) One year later (a year consisting of 360 days) was the 17th day, 2nd month, 601st year. Ten days after that would be the 27th day of the 2nd month, when they came out; a total of 370 days, or parts of 371 separate days, spent in the ark. (Ge 8:13, 14) In the log that Noah kept, it appears he used months of 30 days each, 12 of them equaling 360 days. In this way he avoided all the complicated fractions involved had he used strictly lunar months consisting of slightly more than 29 1⁄2 days. That such calculations were used in the account is evident from the fact that a five-month period consisted of 150 days.—Ge 7:11, 24; 8:3, 4.

 

Where did the Floodwaters come from?

It has been said that if all the moisture in the atmosphere were suddenly released as rain it would not amount to even a couple of inches if spread over the earth’s surface. So from what source was this vast deluge of Noah’s day? According to the Genesis account, God said to Noah: “Here I am bringing the deluge [or, “heavenly ocean”; Heb., mab·bulʹ] of waters upon the earth.” (Ge 6:17) Describing what happened, the next chapter says: “All the springs of the vast watery deep were broken open and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.” (Ge 7:11) So overwhelming was the Deluge that “all the tall mountains that were under the whole heavens came to be covered.”—Ge 7:19.

 So where did this “heavenly ocean” come from? The Genesis account of creation tells how on the second “day” God made an expanse about the earth, and this expanse (called “Heaven”) formed a division between the waters below it, that is, the oceans, and the waters above it. (Ge 1:6-8) The waters suspended above the expanse evidently remained there from the second “day” of creation until the Flood. This is what the apostle Peter was talking about when he recounted that there “were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God.” Those “heavens” and the waters above and beneath them were the means that God’s word called into operation, and “by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water.” (2Pe 3:5, 6) Various explanations have been offered as to how the water was held aloft until the Flood and as to the processes that resulted in its falling. But these are only speculative. The Bible says simply that God made the expanse with waters above it and that he brought the Deluge. His almighty power could easily accomplish it.

 

Where is all the water now?

Evidently that water is right here on the earth. It is believed that there was a time when the oceans were smaller and the continents were larger than they are now, as is evidenced by river channels extending far out under the oceans. It should also be noted that scientists have stated that mountains in the past were much lower than at present, and some mountains have even been pushed up from under the seas. As to the present situation, it is said that “there is ten times as much water by volume in the ocean as there is land above sea level. Dump all this land evenly into the sea, and water would cover the entire earth, one and one-half miles deep.” (National Geographic, January 1945, p. 105) So, after the floodwaters fell, but before the raising of mountains and the lowering of seabeds and before the buildup of polar ice caps, there was more than enough water to cover “all the tall mountains,” as the inspired record says.—Ge 7:19.

 

What effect on the Earth would all the water cause?

With the Deluge great changes came, for example, the life span of humans dropped very rapidly. Some have suggested that prior to the Flood the waters above the expanse shielded out some of the harmful radiation and that, with the waters gone, cosmic radiation genetically harmful to man increased. However, the Bible is silent on the matter. Incidentally, any change in radiation would have altered the rate of formation of radioactive carbon-14 to such an extent as to invalidate all radiocarbon dates prior to the Flood.

 With the sudden opening of the ‘springs of the watery deep’ and “the floodgates of the heavens,” untold billions of tons of water deluged the earth. (Ge 7:11) This may have caused tremendous changes in earth’s surface. The earth’s crust, which is relatively thin and varied in thickness, is stretched over a rather plastic mass thousands of kilometers in diameter. Hence, under the added weight of the water, there was likely a great shifting in the crust. In time new mountains evidently were thrust upward, old mountains rose to new heights, shallow sea basins were deepened, and new shorelines were established, with the result that now about 70 percent of the surface is covered with water. This shifting in the earth’s crust may account for many geologic phenomena, such as the raising of old coastlines to new heights. It has been estimated by some that water pressures alone were equal to “2 tons per square inch,” sufficient to fossilize fauna and flora quickly.—See The Biblical Flood and the Ice Epoch, by D. Patten, 1966, p. 62.

 

What evidence proves that there truly was a global deluge?

Other possible evidence of a drastic change: Remains of mammoths and rhinoceroses have been found in different parts of the earth. Some of these were found in Siberian cliffs; others were preserved in Siberian and Alaskan ice. In fact, some were found with food undigested in their stomachs or still unchewed in their teeth, indicating that they died suddenly. It is estimated, from the trade in ivory tusks, that bones of tens of thousands of such mammoths have been found. The fossil remains of many other animals, such as lions, tigers, bears, and elk, have been found in common strata, which may indicate that all of these were destroyed simultaneously. Some have pointed to such finds as definite physical proof of a rapid change in climate and sudden destruction caused by a universal flood.

 

How would Flood Legends support the Biblical view of a watery cataclysm?

Such a cataclysm as the Deluge, which washed the whole world of that time out of existence, would never be forgotten by the survivors. They would talk about it to their children and their children’s children. For 500 years after the Deluge, Shem lived on to relate the event to many generations. He died only ten years before the birth of Jacob. Moses preserved the true account in Genesis. Sometime after the Flood, when God-defying people built the Tower of Babel, God confused their language and scattered them “over all the surface of the earth.” (Ge 11:9) It was only natural that these people took with them stories of the Flood and passed them on from father to son. The fact that there are not merely a few but perhaps hundreds of different stories about that great Deluge, and that such stories are found among the traditions of many primitive races the world over, is a strong proof that all these people had a common origin and that their early forefathers shared that Flood experience in common.

 These folklore accounts of the Deluge agree with some major features of the Biblical account: (1) a place of refuge for a few survivors, (2) an otherwise global destruction of life by water, and (3) a seed of mankind preserved. The Egyptians, the Greeks, the Chinese, the Druids of Britain, the Polynesians, the Eskimos and Greenlanders, the Africans, the Hindus, and the American Indians—all of these have their Flood stories. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (Vol. 2, p. 319) states: “Flood stories have been discovered among nearly all nations and tribes. Though most common on the Asian mainland and the islands immediately south of it and on the North American continent, they have been found on all the continents. Totals of the number of stories known run as high as about 270 . . . The universality of the flood accounts is usually taken as evidence for the universal destruction of humanity by a flood and the spread of the human race from one locale and even from one family. Though the traditions may not all refer to the same flood, apparently the vast majority do. The assertion that many of these flood stories came from contacts with missionaries will not stand up because most of them were gathered by anthropologists not interested in vindicating the Bible, and they are filled with fanciful and pagan elements evidently the result of transmission for extended periods of time in a pagan society. Moreover, some of the ancient accounts were written by people very much in opposition to the Hebrew-Christian tradition.”—Edited by G. Bromiley, 1982.

 

Does the Bible elsewhere confirm the Flood?

Stronger evidence of the historicalness of the Deluge than the pagan traditions of primitive people is the endorsement other Bible writers gave under inspiration. The only other place where the same Hebrew word (mab·bulʹ, deluge) occurs outside the Genesis account is in David’s melody where he describes God as seated “upon the deluge.” (Ps 29:10) However, other writers make reference to and confirm the Genesis account, as, for example, Isaiah. (Isa 54:9) Ezekiel also endorses the historicity of Noah. (Eze 14:14, 18, 20) Peter draws heavily upon the Deluge account in his letters. (1Pe 3:20; 2Pe 2:5; 3:5, 6) Paul testifies to the great faith Noah displayed in constructing the ark for the survival of his household. (Heb 11:7) Luke lists Noah in the lineage of Messiah’s forebears.—Lu 3:36.

 Even more significant is what Jesus said about the days of the Deluge, as recorded by both Luke and Matthew. Far more than just a simple endorsement of the veracity of the Deluge account, Jesus’ words show the pictorial and prophetic significance of those ancient events. In answer to the disciples’ question, “What will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” Jesus said, among other things: “For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.” (Mt 24:3, 37-39; Lu 17:26, 27) There is, therefore, abundant evidence from the inspired Holy Scriptures themselves to support the authenticity and genuineness of the Deluge account. It does not rest on mere traditions of men, on the folklore of primitive people, or on geologic and archaeological findings.

 

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Hello, Bible Student. I think the Biblical account, particularly the references from Jesus Himself, are sufficient to conclude that the flood was a real event, and not some sort of literary device. However, I also believe that there is sufficient reason to believe, from the Biblical account, that the flood was not a global event. This is also consistent with the lack of evidence from paleontology and geology for a global flood.

The fact that many cultures have a flood account is quite likely better explained by other localized floods, not necessarily a single, global flood. For example, the oldest of the Egyptian pyramids, Djoser, was built around 2630 BC, yet is still standing, very much intact after the date you provided for the proposed global flood. Additionally, the Egyptian records of the period spanning your date for the proposed flood are intact and do not support the necessary conclusion that all Egyptians died during the proposed global flood.

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On 7/14/2019 at 8:58 PM, ARGOSY said:

It's just our relationship with Jesus that counts, how we see Genesis is largely irrelevant to our faith. 

Beloved brother, while I generally agree with what you have said, ...also, may I humbly point out what Jesus said:

For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed Me: for he wrote of Me.  John 5:46

Moses is credited with the writing of the first five books of the Old Testament, in Genesis, the first book, Moses wrote about the flood of Noah and it has been shown by various Scriptures in this thread the Flood was global, 

...granted, Moses specifically prophesied about Jesus Deu 18:18, and he also wrote about Jesus in Gen 3:15, so the the account of the Flood lies between the two in his writings, add to that what the Holy Spirit inspired Peter to write: 

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Pet 1:21 

...that must include all of what Moses' wrote, 

...so with regard to what Jesus said, ...if modern man of today choose to believe Modernism and Post Modernism about Creation, the Flood,  the Exodus of God's chosen people from Egypt and many other Biblical accounts of history rather than the Holy Spirit inspired Word of God, then it seems Jesus is saying they won't believe what He has said about being the only, ...Way, ...Truth ...and Life.

Not to hijack this thread, ...but don't we see that here at Worthy with all of the threads that question the Truth and veracity of the Word of God?

Lord bless 

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1 hour ago, JustPassingThru said:

Beloved brother, while I generally agree with what you have said, ...also, may I humbly point out what Jesus said:

For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed Me: for he wrote of Me.  John 5:46

Moses is credited with the writing of the first five books of the Old Testament, in Genesis, the first book, Moses wrote about the flood of Noah and it has been shown by various Scriptures in this thread the Flood was global, 

...granted, Moses specifically prophesied about Jesus Deu 18:18, and he also wrote about Jesus in Gen 3:15, so the the account of the Flood lies between the two in his writings, add to that what the Holy Spirit inspired Peter to write: 

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Pet 1:21 

...that must include all of what Moses' wrote, 

...so with regard to what Jesus said, ...if modern man of today choose to believe Modernism and Post Modernism about Creation, the Flood,  the Exodus of God's chosen people from Egypt and many other Biblical accounts of history rather than the Holy Spirit inspired Word of God, then it seems Jesus is saying they won't believe what He has said about being the only, ...Way, ...Truth ...and Life.

Not to hijack this thread, ...but don't we see that here at Worthy with all of the threads that question the Truth and veracity of the Word of God?

Lord bless 

Yes I do agree with you and enjoy what you said. I don't like to water down any words of the Bible, and I tend towards literalism where possible. 

But when a brother claims faith in Christ, yet disagrees on literal interpretation here and there, who am I to judge the heart? 

Romans 14: Accept the one whose faith is weak,without quarreling over disputable matters.

Sure a bit of online banter is fine, but without the condemnation that often goes with it. Not saying you do that, just conceptually we shouldn't undermine each other's faith.

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Guest Petros

There is a lot of archeological evidence for the flood, as a famous archeologist named woolly discovered. However, this evidence is not for a worldwide flood but a localised one.

I am struggling to remember his first name, but it might be Bernard, and He was an Englishman as I recall who was knighted and made a sir by the monarch in the early part of the last century. Your library might be able to source his findings for you. If not, a good Christian bookshop will have something similar. Its all well documented.  Its a long time since it was required reading for me at college. Enjoy the research.

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Not reading anything on this thread I say:

To not believe in a global flood is to call the Father a liar. Only men are liars! He promised NEVER to repeat the flood. If the flood was only local, God broke His promise! God forbid! So, if it's a local flood, why did Noah preach for 120 years of the coming flood instead of just moving?! Why did he have to build an ark (WOW!! What a meteorologist to forecast a flood 120 years in advance!) How many local floods are everywhere these days? Mt. St. Helen created a mini grand canyon (40 x smaller) in 9 hours. A similar lake over the great planes drained out into the Pacific. There is absolutely no way the Colorado River could carve out the Grand Canyon. Fly over it and you can see for yourself! Also, God said the water was 15 cubits (~26 feet) above the highest mountain. Does water have a standing still wall? Crazy. People just do not believe the word of God and they will suffer the consequences. Use the grey matter to understand the word of God instead of being a parrot repeating garbage.

You will be held accountable for the blood of those that perish from perpetuating lies against the word of God. Shame! Shame! Shame!

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