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What Happens When you Die?


OpenMind

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On 4/28/2019 at 1:28 PM, OpenMind said:

I will show that the Bible actually does not support this theory.  In fact, according to the Bible there is no spirit inside of us at all.  We exist only as mortal bodies, made from dust having been given the breath of life.  And it is this “breath of life” that is confused with, or interpreted as, a “spirit”. 

Okay..., this is what God said to Adam: 

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.  Gen 2:17

Adam lived 930 years, so it wasn't his physical body.

And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.  Gen 5:5

Adam and Eve exhibited emotion, they were afraid because they were naked, which shows an emotion.

And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.  Gen 3:10

So enlighten me, ...what died?

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1 hour ago, OpenMind said:

Also, the Greek does not appear to use the word "Lord" at all.  https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15-47.htm.  I don't know where the KJV got that from.

Really.......

 οG3588 T-NSM πρωτος G4413 A-NSM-S ανθρωπος G444 N-NSM εκ G1537 PREP γης G1093 N-GSF χοικος G5517 A-NSM ο G3588 T-NSM δευτερος G1208 A-NSM ανθρωπος G444 N-NSM ο G3588 T-NSM κυριος G2962 N-NSM εξ G1537 PREP ουρανου G3772 N-GSM    1 Cor 15:47 Greek NT Textus Receptus with Strong's Numbers

ο G3588 T-NSM  

Definite article masculine - The

κυριος G2962

 noun - supreme in authority, Lord

The King James "got" it, ...and that says it all, ...more correctly, translated it,  from the Textus Receptus manuscript.

Do you even know the manuscripts the NIV used?

One more VERY important FACT,   the King James is a word for word translation,

whereas the NIV is an interpretation...,

The NIV is not word for word. The 1983 preface to the NIV states, "...thought patterns and syntax differ from language to language, faithful communication of the meaning of the writers of the Bible demands frequent modifications in sentence structure..."  Christianity Stack Exchange

Here's the verse in King james English:

The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second Man is the Lord from Heaven. 1 Cor 15:47

Notice the second is is in italics, that's the King James telling us it's been added for clarity, ...but is not in the original.

So, ...you prefer some men's ideas to leave out The Lord in the Holy Scripture and change it to, ...is of

NIV:  The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.

No thanks, ...in these dark and dangerous times I'll stick with what the Holy Spirit said word for word...

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2 hours ago, JustPassingThru said:

Really.......

 οG3588 T-NSM πρωτος G4413 A-NSM-S ανθρωπος G444 N-NSM εκ G1537 PREP γης G1093 N-GSF χοικος G5517 A-NSM ο G3588 T-NSM δευτερος G1208 A-NSM ανθρωπος G444 N-NSM ο G3588 T-NSM κυριος G2962 N-NSM εξ G1537 PREP ουρανου G3772 N-GSM    1 Cor 15:47 Greek NT Textus Receptus with Strong's Numbers

ο G3588 T-NSM  

Definite article masculine - The

κυριος G2962

 noun - supreme in authority, Lord

The King James "got" it, ...and that says it all, ...more correctly, translated it,  from the Textus Receptus manuscript.

Do you even know the manuscripts the NIV used?

One more VERY important FACT,   the King James is a word for word translation,

whereas the NIV is an interpretation...,

The NIV is not word for word. The 1983 preface to the NIV states, "...thought patterns and syntax differ from language to language, faithful communication of the meaning of the writers of the Bible demands frequent modifications in sentence structure..."  Christianity Stack Exchange

Here's the verse in King james English:

The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second Man is the Lord from Heaven. 1 Cor 15:47

Notice the second is is in italics, that's the King James telling us it's been added for clarity, ...but is not in the original.

So, ...you prefer some men's ideas to leave out The Lord in the Holy Scripture and change it to, ...is of

NIV:  The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.

No thanks, ...in these dark and dangerous times I'll stick with what the Holy Spirit said word for word...

The KJV is not translated word for word, but neither is the NIV.

Can you please post the source for your Greek.  Thank you.

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On 4/29/2019 at 12:01 PM, OpenMind said:

OneLight, I believe the word "spirit" in your first example is a reference to a different kind of spirit what we typically refer to as "character", similar to how we would use the word in regards to "school spirit", "Christmas spirit" or "the spirit of giving".  It is in fact the same word used in 2 Corinthians 4:13 which speaks of "the spirit of faith".

Take this definition of spirit:   those qualities regarded as forming the definitive or typical elements in the character of a person, nation, or group .

The word "soul", as I explained in the OP refers to what we are, as in "a living creature".  Man became a soul when God breathed life into his nostrils in Genesis 2:7.  The original Greek word used here is Psuche.  However, psuche can also be a reference to a person's individuality or "self".  Either way, this word is a reference to a person's life and existence as a soul.

So given the context, I believe that passage can be paraphrased as "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your character, life, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.".

 

Now let me ask you something.  How do you reject the many passages that say we return to the dust of the earth when we die?

Every living thing has a Body a soul and spirit. The body is the outward form or house in which his soul and spirit dwell, (Gen. 2:7, 19; John 5:28-29; Matt. 27: 52; 1 Cor. 15:34-58; Jas. 2:26; 1 Thess. 5:23; Heb. 10:5-10.
The soul is that invisible part which feels , the seat of his emotions and desires, and which gives him self consciousness and makes him a sentient being (Lev. 23:43; 1 Sam. 22:2; 30:6; 2 Sam. 13:39; 2 Kings 4:27; 23:3; Ps. 107:5, 9, 18, 26; Mark 12:33; Matt. 26:38; John 12:27; Heb. 10:38; Heb. 4:12).
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The spirit is that invisible part of all living beings that knows the seat of his intellect, mind and will, and that which gives him self determination and makes him a free moral agent and a rational being (1 Cor. 2;11; Matt. 26:41; Exodus 35:21;Job 38:8, 18; Prov. 20:27; Phil. 1:27; Heb. 4:12; Jas. 2:26; 1 Thess. 5:23).

Animals have both feelings and knowledge although somewhat limited and on a much lower scale than that of man. Animals were not created in the likeness of God as men are. They are a lower type of life and they have souls and spirits in the sense of feelings, emotions, appetites, desires, passions, and a low form of knowledge, as can be seen in may Scriptures. If there are horses in Heaven as the Scriptures teach then there must be all kinds of animals there for Heaven is called a better place, and therefore it is sure to be as good as the Earth (Hebrews 11:10-16).

Scriptures teach that there is a difference between the natural spirit of man and the spirit of beasts (Eccl. 3:21); that there is a difference between "breath" and "spirit" (Job 34:15; Ps. 19:7; Luke 12:19; 1 Cor. 5:5; 2 Cor. 7:1) ; and that each creature has a separate spirit which is not a part of God (Num. 16:22; 27:17; Eccl. 3:21 ; Ezek. 21:7; Dan. 2:1-3; Mal. 2:15-16; Prov. 16:2; 1 Cor. 2:10-12; 14:32; Heb. 12:9, 23; 1 Thess. 5:23).

Scriptures teach that there is a difference between the natural spirit of man and the spirit of beasts (Eccl. 3:21); that there is a difference between "breath" and "spirit" (Job 34:15; Ps. 19:7; Luke 12:19; 1 Cor. 5:5; 2 Cor. 7:1) ; and that each creature has a separate spirit which is not a part of God (Num. 16:22; 27:17; Eccl. 3:21 ; Ezek. 21:7; Dan. 2:1-3; Mal. 2:15-16; Prov. 16:2; 1 Cor. 2:10-12; 14:32; Heb. 12:9, 23; 1 Thess. 5:23).

Eccl. 3:21 states this; "Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?"

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3 hours ago, OpenMind said:

The KJV is not translated word for word, but neither is the NIV.

Can you please post the source for your Greek.  Thank you.

I'll be more than happy to, ...right after you answer my question im my other post, ...What died?

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9 hours ago, OpenMind said:

Here's something else to consider for all those who believe the dead are living in heaven.  

Considering the story of the death and resurrection of Lazarus in John 11, why when Martha said "I know he will rise again on the last day" did Jesus not comfort her by saying "He's living right now in heaven"?  And why, if the people knew he was living in heaven would they want him to come back?  Wouldn't they be happy for him and want him to stay in a place so much more wonderful than earth where he would surely suffer again?

And why when John recounted the resurrection of Lazarus made he no mention of "his spirit" returning to his body?  In fact, there was no reference to what happened to Lazarus' spirit at all.  And wouldn't Lazarus have said upon his resurrection, "why did you bring me back?  I was happy in heaven."?

Nobody spoke about where Lazarus was and wondered if he went to heaven or hell.  Nobody spoke about Lazarus as though he was "living" as a spiritual entity.  Nobody comforted the other by saying he's in heaven.  Nobody mentioned heaven at all.  Why is that? 

I mean, if your concept of immediate life after death is true, then wouldn't such a critical part of our universe be talked about in scripture at the very least in such a detailed recounting of the events surrounding Lazarus' death and resurrection?  Wouldn't the whereabouts of his "spirit" be the most integral part of the story? 

And what, if death is not death, would a resurrection really mean?  It wouldn't be bringing somebody back from the dead if he was really still alive.  It would be about bringing somebody's spirit back to their old body for the selfish reasons of those left behind, and would Jesus really facilitate such a transaction, knowing that Lazarus is in a better place in heaven?  Think about that.

Right on point, and another question is why didn't Lazarus protest at being brought back down out of heaven?

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19 hours ago, OpenMind said:

And putting aside all of my explanations here, this is all really quite simply settled by common sense, knowing that we are to be transformed into immortal spirits on resurrection day, how then can it be that we are already immortal spirits today, as you claim?  What then would be the point of resurrection day?

It's actually the body that's resurrected, quickened by the Holy Spirit in which the spirit of the saved Christian resides to never be separated from Christ, such is the promise of eternal life fulfilled so that nothing can be added to or subtracted from the grace in which the saints stand.   

1Co 15:44
(44)  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Rom 8:23
(23)  And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Php 3:20-21
(20)  For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
(21)  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Jas 2:26
(26)  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

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On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 9:24 PM, Willa said:

 Rom 8:9  But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.  

We will not become spirits or angels after we die. Perhaps you inferred that we will become life giving spirits because no where do I find that.  I do find that Paul would be absent from the body and be present with the Lord.  I don't find any honosty in that in you misquoted that we become life giving spirits.    Our spirits are not resurrected with our bodies.  Our bodies are transformed in to bodies like Jesus' resurrected body and will be reunited with our spirits.  

I will no longer respond to you and will be praying for both of us for our blindness be removed and that we might be enlightened by the Holy Spirit.  

 

This was clearly shown by Christ to those who doubted in this case Thomas, that the resurrection is bodily...

John 20:27-28 King James Version (KJV)

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

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On 4/30/2019 at 5:21 PM, JustPassingThru said:

I'll be more than happy to, ...right after you answer my question im my other post, ...What died?

Why would you not want to share your evidence?  Do you think you're doing me a favour that I have to pay you for it?  

I'll be happy to answer your question, whether you share your evidence or not because it's not a competition or adversarial discussion to me, but I'm not sure what you're referring to.  Please restate the question.

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16 hours ago, Michael37 said:

It's actually the body that's resurrected, quickened by the Holy Spirit in which the spirit of the saved Christian resides to never be separated from Christ, such is the promise of eternal life fulfilled so that nothing can be added to or subtracted from the grace in which the saints stand.   

1Co 15:44
(44)  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Rom 8:23
(23)  And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Php 3:20-21
(20)  For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
(21)  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Jas 2:26
(26)  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

My question still stands.  If you are already an immortal spirit, why would the body need to be transformed into an immortal spirit?  And why would you need to be joined with it?  You say "the body without the spirit is dead", which is of course true (though not using the definition of "spirit" as you see it), but when the body is resurrected it is not raised a natural body, but a spiritual.  So again I ask, if you are already an immortal spirit, why would you need a spiritual body to go along with that immortal spirit?  What's the point?

My point being, not that the body will not be resurrected as a spiritual body, because it certainly will, but that in it being so, we do not need also another spirit as our body becomes the immortal spirit we crave.  In other words, when our bodies are resurrected and transformed, that's all we need.  This extra spirit that you guys believe in, is completely unnecessary and in fact impossible to reconcile with the resurrection since with it we are already immortal and spiritual, the entire point of the resurrection.  It's an obvious conundrum.  Not sure why you can't see it.  

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