Some people say the 2nd Seal has been opened.

[R. Hartono]

19 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It is too simple! I am amazed you haven't figured this out yet. All martyrs so far are with that group under the altar, but they are there IN SPIRIT, not in FLESH.  They await the resurrection where they can get their bodies back, just as all others (not martyrs; just dead in Christ) are waiting. Paul said Jesus would escort those spirits back from heaven WITH HIM so they can meet with their resurrection bodies.

Some people assume when good people die they will go to heaven.

In heaven there is no separation between good people and bad people, as described in the story of Lazarus :

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.                  

Jesus actually tell us in this story of Lazarus that Abraham is not in heaven yet now, but he is in the paradise.

The same thing happen to the man crucified with Him who believe in Him :

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Gabriel told Daniel that he would die and rest and will receive his rewards in the end of days, Daniel is not yet in heaven now but he may rest in paradise :                

Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.  

1 Thes 4:15  According to the Lord's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.…

But the martyrs in the great tribulation they will appear under the Altar, and Jesus does not come down to earth to take them back for their souls are already in heaven awaiting their fellows who shall be killed as well  in the tribulation.

 

Edited May 6, 2019 by R. Hartono

[iamlamad]

23 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

Some people assume when good people die they will go to heaven.

In heaven there is no separation between good people and bad people, as described in the story of Lazarus :

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.                  

Jesus actually tell us in this story of Lazarus that Abraham is not in heaven yet now, but he is in the paradise.

The same thing happen to the man crucified with Him who believe in Him :

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Gabriel told Daniel that he would die and rest and will receive his rewards in the end of days, Daniel is not yet in heaven now but he may rest in paradise :                

Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.  

1 Thes 4:15  According to the Lord's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.…

But the martyrs in the great tribulation they will appear under the Altar, and Jesus does not come down to earth to take them back for their souls are already in heaven awaiting their fellows who shall be killed as well  in the tribulation.

 

Paul did not assume this: he WROTE IT: not good but born again people: absent from the body is present with the Lord. There have been many people now that have died, went to heaven, then got prayed back to their body on earth. It is common knowledge now that the dead in Christ wait out their time IN HEAVEN.

Before Christ rose, the righteous saints had to go to hades, but there was a great gulf fixed: they were not in the fire. Jesus emptied that place. No dead in Christ go there.

Edited May 6, 2019 by iamlamad

[R. Hartono]

5 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Paul did not assume this: he WROTE IT: not good but born again people: absent from the body is present with the Lord. There have been many people now that have died, went to heaven, then got prayed back to their body on earth. It is common knowledge now that the dead in Christ wait out their time IN HEAVEN.

Before Christ rose, the righteous saints had to go to hades, but there was a great gulf fixed: they were not in the fire. Jesus emptied that place.

You cannot change Bible with your story .

The story of Lazarus told us that Abraham is not in heaven but in paradise

Gabriel told Daniel that he would die and rest and will receive his rewards in the end of days, Daniel is not yet in heaven now but he may rest in paradise :                

Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days. 

Its illogical that Jesus need to come to earth to take them to heaven if their souls already in heaven.

 

[iamlamad]

6 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

You cannot change Bible with your story .

The story of Lazarus told us that Abraham is not in heaven but in paradise

Gabriel told Daniel that he would die and rest and will receive his rewards in the end of days, Daniel is not yet in heaven now but he may rest in paradise :                

Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days. 

Its illogical that Jesus need to come to earth to take them to heaven if their souls already in heaven.

That is ancient History; the righteous HAD to go to hades  - that is, UNTIL JESUS ROSE from the dead. When He rose, He emptied paradise where Abraham was. This is just common knowledge today and it IS scriptural. Check out Matthew 27. 

Jesus took them all to heaven, but at the same time resurrected a FEW of them, perhaps the elders. Some were SEEN after their resurrection.  

No, their "souls" were NOT "already in heaven. Did you not understand that the spirit and soul of a human are tied together very tightly? Only the word of God can tell soul from Spirit. The soul and spirit make up the "inward" man. They CANNOT be the same, for the spirit  gets born again, the soul does not.  Again, this is common New Testament knowledge. 

Before Christ rose, if anyone died, saint or sinner, their spirit with their soul left the body and went deep into the earth. If they were a saint, they went to paradise; if they were a sinner they went to the fire - but in both cases, they went DOWN. No part of them could get to heaven. NO ONE could get to heaven until Jesus rose from the dead.  But God always has exceptions: Enoch and Elijah. Their time will come as the Two Witnesses. 

[R. Hartono]

16 hours ago, iamlamad said:

That is ancient History; the righteous HAD to go to hades  - that is, UNTIL JESUS ROSE from the dead. When He rose, He emptied paradise where Abraham was. This is just common knowledge today and it IS scriptural. Check out Matthew 27. 

Jesus took them all to heaven, but at the same time resurrected a FEW of them, perhaps the elders. Some were SEEN after their resurrection.  

No, their "souls" were NOT "already in heaven. Did you not understand that the spirit and soul of a human are tied together very tightly? Only the word of God can tell soul from Spirit. The soul and spirit make up the "inward" man. They CANNOT be the same, for the spirit  gets born again, the soul does not.  Again, this is common New Testament knowledge. 

Before Christ rose, if anyone died, saint or sinner, their spirit with their soul left the body and went deep into the earth. If they were a saint, they went to paradise; if they were a sinner they went to the fire - but in both cases, they went DOWN. No part of them could get to heaven. NO ONE could get to heaven until Jesus rose from the dead.  But God always has exceptions: Enoch and Elijah. Their time will come as the Two Witnesses. 

Absolutely your story,

Bible cannot contradict itself, Gabriel clearly said to Daniel he will rest till the end of the days, which until now has not come yet.

Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days. 

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Absolutely your story,

Bible cannot contradict itself, Gabriel clearly said to Daniel he will rest till the end of the days, which until now has not come yet.

Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days. 

So Daniel has been resting, but his rest has been in heaven. That is not a contradiction. 

Always remember, the New Testament explains the Old - not the other way around.

[R. Hartono]

On 5/7/2019 at 8:28 PM, iamlamad said:

So Daniel has been resting, but his rest has been in heaven. That is not a contradiction. 

Always remember, the New Testament explains the Old - not the other way around.

Thats your misunderstanding, Jesus says they will be hearing from their graves, not in heaven :

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Eph 4:8 When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

THIS EXPLAINS THE BROKEN CAPTIVITY OF SINS, because the apostles who witnessed Jesus ascension to heaven DIDNT WRITE ABOUT THE DEADS BEING TAKEN to heaven as well.

 

[iamlamad]

20 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Thats your misunderstanding, Jesus says they will be hearing from their graves, not in heaven :

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Eph 4:8 When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

THIS EXPLAINS THE BROKEN CAPTIVITY OF SINS, because the apostles who witnessed Jesus ascension to heaven DIDNT WRITE ABOUT THE DEADS BEING TAKEN to heaven as well.

 

That is YOUR misunderstanding! It is the dead bodies, long decayed of the Old Testament saints that will "hear his voice" and fly up out of the ground. Jesus or angels will bring the spirits from heaven to meet with their bodies - exactly like will happen with the rapture of the church. Jesus will bring the spirits of the dead in Christ with Him to meet with their bodies.