Ancient saints shall be gathered with the church to heaven

[R. Hartono]

On 5/8/2019 at 10:54 AM, Montana Marv said:

This ascension began at the Mt of Olives.  Paradise and those in it were lifted up into heaven at this time.

Montana Marv

 

Apostles didnt write anything about Jesus went to heaven with those souls when they witnessed the ascension.

[R. Hartono]

16 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

The Rapture is for the Bride Only.  It is the reuniting of the Soul which is already in Heaven to their Body which is in the grave. Glorification. 

 

Are you saying that at the rapture those souls already in heaven will be taken by Jesus to their graves on earth and resurrected ? and then make a return trip to heaven ? 

Edited May 10, 2019 by R. Hartono

[Montana Marv]

7 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Apostles didnt write anything about Jesus went to heaven with those souls when they witnessed the ascension.

Please read Eph 4:7-10.  When Christ Ascended He lifted those souls from Paradise and brought them to Heaven.  (not their bodies, only their souls)

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

7 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Are you saying that at the rapture those souls already in heaven will be taken by Jesus to their graves on earth and resurrected ? and then make a return trip to heaven ? 

It is the other way.  Their bodies will be resurrected to meet their souls in the Air. Their resurrected body will become an immortal one.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[R. Hartono]

On 5/8/2019 at 12:57 PM, missmuffet said:

I really do not understand what your reasoning is here. All those souls who are in heaven now are believers and they do not yet have their resurrected bodies. All the souls who are in Hades are not believers and they do not have resurrected bodies. They are not in the same place. I do not know if those in Hades can see those in heaven. Everything in the Bible is the truth. Parable or not there is a lot we can learn from the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man.  After Jesus's resurrection he went to paradise and He took those in Paradise to heaven. That is where they are right now. 

 

On 5/10/2019 at 8:49 PM, Montana Marv said:

Please read Eph 4:7-10.  When Christ Ascended He lifted those souls from Paradise and brought them to Heaven.  (not their bodies, only their souls)

In Christ

Montana Marv

Thats your misunderstanding, Jesus says they will be hearing from their graves, not in heaven :

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Eph 4:8 When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. THIS EXPLAINS THE BROKEN CAPTIVITY OF SINS, because the apostles who witnessed Jesus ascension to heaven DIDNT WRITE ABOUT THE DEADS BEING TAKEN to heaven as well.

 

[missmuffet]

2 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

 

Thats your misunderstanding, Jesus says they will be hearing from their graves, not in heaven :

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Eph 4:8 When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. THIS EXPLAINS THE BROKEN CAPTIVITY OF SINS, because the apostles who witnessed Jesus ascension to heaven DIDNT WRITE ABOUT THE DEADS BEING TAKEN to heaven as well.

 

Are you another soul sleep believer?

[R. Hartono]

18 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Are you another soul sleep believer?

Did Jesus say they sleep in their graves ?

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

[Retrobyter]

On 5/6/2019 at 2:29 AM, R. Hartono said:

Some people assume when good people die they will go to heaven.

In heaven there is no separation between good people and bad people, as described in the story of Lazarus :

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.                  

Jesus actually tell us in this story of Lazarus that Abraham is not in heaven yet now, but he is in the paradise.

The same thing happen to the man crucified with Him who believe in Him :

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Gabriel told Daniel that he would die and rest and will receive his rewards in the end of days, Daniel is not yet in heaven now but he may rest in paradise :                

Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.     

ALL THAT ARE IN GRAVES SHALL HEAR JESUS VOICE :

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Shalom, R. Hartono.

What more can I say? You have the wrong definition of "heaven," the wrong definition of "paradise," and the wrong philosophy/theology of the afterlife. And, while it comes as no shock to me that these would be in error, it's most unfortunate and heart-sickening to me. I'll reiterate what I said recently regarding the words of Yeshua` about the rich man and Elezar ("Lazarus"):

First, let's look at the parable of the rich man and Elezar ("Lazarus"). To do this, one must go back a few verses, at least. The whole account begins in chapter 15, verse 1. Yeshua` had received the publicans and sinners - the outcasts of society, and the P'rushiym ("Pharisees") and the transcribers of the Torah, generally accepted to be the scholars and experts on the Bible, had noticed and commented on their disgust. So, Yeshua` gave them a few parables to correct their thinking:

First, He gave them the parable of the man who lost one sheep out of 100 he owned and how he left the 99 to find the one, and rejoiced when he had found it! The 99 were never lost in the first place.

Then, He gave them the parable of the woman who had 10 silver pieces and searched for a missing piece, and when she found it, she rejoiced with her friends! The 9 pieces were never lost in the first place.

Then, He gave them the parable of the prodigal son. The son finally came humbly home and his father welcomed him back, while his brother who never left his father did not.

In all three, something was lost and was found, and the one who had lost them, was rejoicing at the find. That which was lost represented the publicans and sinners! That which was not lost was everyone else in Israel, including the P'rushiym and the transcribers of the Torah, and these leaders were also represented by the brother who never left.

Then, He gave them the parable of the unjust steward, a man who mismanaged his master's affairs, was caught in the act, and cushioned the blow he knew was coming by giving his master's debtors a break that would make him a welcome guest in the future. This was a warning to these leaders to act wisely before the hammer falls. We pick up the story here:

Luke 16:10-31 (KJV)

10 "He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much. 11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches? 12 And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own? 13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. 15 And he said unto them (the P'rushiym or Pharisees), 

"Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

16 "The law and the prophets (collectively the Tanakh, the whole Bible they had at the time) were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached (heralded), and every man presseth into it (pushes to get in). 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle (a hook on a Hebrew letter to distinguish it from another) of the law (the Torah) to fail.

18 "Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

19 "There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell (Greek: en too hadee = "in the unseen" or "in the unknown") he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, 

"'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 

25 "But Abraham said, 

"'Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.'

27 "Then he said, 

"'I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' 

29 "Abraham saith unto him, 

"'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 

30 "And he said, 

"'Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.' 

31 "And he said unto him, 

"'If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.'"

I should also mention that the rich man and Elezar ("Lazarus") is frequently misunderstood. The timing of this parable is NOT between death and the Resurrection; it's AFTER the Resurrection!

The word used for "hell" in verse 23 is "hadee," the dative form of "hadees":

86 hadees (hah'-dace). From a (as negative particle) and eidoo; properly, unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls
-- grave, hell.

Greek uses a backward apostrophe called "rough breathing" over a vowel (or the second vowel in a diphthong) at the beginning of a word that we equate with an "h" sound in translation. Thus, in Greek it is spelled "alpha-delta-eta-sigma."

1492 eidoo (i'-do). A primary verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equivalent optanomai and horaoo; properly, to see (literally or figuratively); by implication, (in the perfect tense only) to know
-- be aware, behold, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) know(-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wish, wot. Compare optanomai.

3700 optanomai (op-tan'-om-ahee). A (middle voice [a specific form of passive voice]) prolonged form of the primary (middle voice) optomai (op'-tom-ahee); which is used for it in certain tenses; and both as alternate of horaoo; to gaze (i.e. With wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable; and thus differing from blepoo, which denotes simply voluntary observation; and from eidoo, which expresses merely mechanical, passive or casual vision; while theaomai, and still more emphatically its intensive theoreoo, signifies an earnest but more continued inspection; and skopeoo a watching from a distance)
-- appear, look, see, shew self.

3708 horaoo (hor-ah'-o). Properly, to stare at (compare optanomai), i.e. (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension, to attend to; by Hebraism, to experience; passively, to appear
-- behold, perceive, see, take heed.

Despite the Greek influence on the usage of this word, including Greek mythology in which the Romans used the Latin equivalent "Pluto," the word itself is a word that is equivalent to what we call "the unknown."

This man, the rich man, had his eyes. He had his feeling sensors in his skin such that he could be tormented in flame. He had his tongue. He had his ears to hear Avraham's response. He had his voice to call out to Avraham.

This isn't evidence that "human spirits have eyes"; it's evidence that he was alive as a human body! He was already resurrected! That makes MUCH more sense than "human spirits have eyes!"

The definition of "the heaven" is simply "the sky" (or "the skies") in both the Hebrew word "hashaamayim," and the Greek words "ho ouranos" and "hoi ouranoi."

Genesis 1:6-8 (KJV)

6 And God said,

"Let there be a firmament (Hebrew: raaqiya`) in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament

"Heaven (Hebrew: hashaamayim, the same word used in Genesis 1:1 with the definite article)."

And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Here's the two words in Strong's Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary:

7549 raaqiya` (raw-kee'-ah). From raaqa'; properly, an expanse, i.e. The firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky
-- firmament.

7554 raaqa` (raw-kah'). A primitive root; to pound the earth (as a sign of passion); by analogy to expand (by hammering); by implication, to overlay (with thin sheets of metal)
-- beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.

And, it IS an expanse; not a two-dimensional expanse like a plate, but a THREE-dimensional expanse of GASES! After all, they expanded to separate the waters above this expanse from the waters below this expanse which was later called "hamayim" or "the seas." 

8064 shaamayim (shaw-mah'-yim). Dual of an unused singular shaameh {shaw-meh'}; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve)
-- air, X astrologer, heaven(-s).

Actually, the dual refers more simply to the day sky and the night sky.

The Greek is simple, too. The P'rushiym and Ts'duqiym ("Pharisees and Sadducees," meaning "Separatists" and "Righteous Ones") used a word translated into Greek as "ho ouranos":

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out-from the sky"). 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: tou ouranou = "of-the sky"); but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas."

And he left them, and departed.

 

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THE ANCIENT SAINTS AND THE EARLY CHURCH WILL RISE FIRST

1 Thes 4:15  According to the Lord's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.…

I believe that you are spot on, here. 

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But the martyrs in the great tribulation they will appear under the Altar awaiting their fellow for a little time.

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.                                                                                                                                                                                                  

Here, however, you've misunderstood the word "soul." A "soul" (Hebrew "nefesh" and Greek "psuchee") means an "air-breathing being." That's hard to do without having their bodies resurrected first!

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man (not the body of a man) of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (Hebrew: nefesh).

5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh). From naafash; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental)
-- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

5314 naafash (naw-fash'). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air)
-- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

This verse was quoted by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:45 using the Greek word "psucheen," the accusative form of "psuchee":

1 Corinthians 15:45 (KJV)

45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam was made a living soul (Greek: psucheen zoosan = "an-air-breather living");" the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

5590 psuchee (psoo-khay'). From psuchoo; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from pneuma, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from zooee, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew nefesh, ruwach and chay)
-- heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

5594 psuchoo (psoo'-kho). A primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently, thus differing on the one hand from pneoo, which denotes properly a forcible respiration; and on the other from the base of aeer, which refers properly to an inanimate breeze), i.e. (by implication, of reduction of temperature by evaporation) to chill (figuratively)
-- wax cold.

[OldCoot]

Some of those OT saints are probably already there.  At least it would seem so from Matthew 27.

[Uriah]

I see it looking like this:

Heb. 11:39 & 40- And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

So, no, they are not there yet. 

John 5:24- Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

"Shall not" indicates future tense. Once a believer dies he is "passed" into the future--- through time!!! To the day we all meet Jesus in the air. The same then is true then for those who went before us and it includes the leading of the captives to their freedom as well as the thief on the cross. 

 In the part about Lazarus, it seems like a "once in all of history" event, not something we can use to build a doctrine upon. The characters in the passage were likely allowed to communicate through time itself.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Uriah