"Turn or Burn" Is Not My Gospel

[thomas t]

3 hours ago, Firm Foundation said:

You are against it why?  [slapping "turn-or-burn"-messages into other people's faces

It's all about behavior.

I think Christians are called to spread the good news.

Please imagine you're a shop vendor in an earthly shop selling cokes to thirsty customers...

Once you were telling some customer "you're a minion of SATAN" you will be fired. Simply fired. Here in Germany, at least. I have a friend giving speeches for money; some earthly topic for which you get good money, he has a good education, too. The moment he tells his customers "you're owned by SATAN - burn in hell" he will be instantly fired. Fired. No second chance possible, I guess. Why do you think this kind of behavior is ok for Christians?

The coke shop wants to sell their stuff. The shop is interested everything goes allright, so that the customers come and bring some money in.

Equally, we primarily want something from our visitors, we want them to listen. We are told to spread the gospel, it's not the other way round, we should have them learn all the things we could learn - the very things we are so greatful to know about. So let's have an environment that makes it possible to do so!

So, please everyone adopt some minimum standards of good behavior.

Thomas

[warrior12]

11 minutes ago, thomas t said:

It's all about behavior.

I think Christians are called to spread the good news.

Please imagine you're a shop vendor in an earthly shop selling cokes to thirsty customers...

Once you were telling some customer "you're a minion of SATAN" you will be fired. Simply fired. Here in Germany, at least. I have a friend giving speeches for money; some earthly topic for which you get good money, he has a good education, too. The moment he tells his customers "you're owned by SATAN - burn in hell" he will be instantly fired. Fired. No second chance possible, I guess. Why do you think this kind of behavior is ok for Christians?

The coke shop wants to sell their stuff. The shop is interested everything goes allright, so that the customers come and bring some money in.

Equally, we primarily want something from our visitors, we want them to listen. We are told to spread the gospel, it's not the other way round, we should have them learn all the things we could learn - the very things we are so greatful to know about. So let's have an environment that makes it possible to do so!

So, please everyone adopt some minimum standards of good behavior.

Thomas

Your topic statement seems a bit misleading as if to say that is all that is preached .  The whole gospel has to be preached and this includes the reality of those who die without Jesus Christ as their savior.   A good sermon would point to that very fact and would have men heart riveted not with fear as such, but the future of his existence as a soul.  It will start with the introduction of sin and how every man was born in the state he is in and it will progress to show that the rejection of the salvation of his soul would ultimately lead to the place named in the bible as Hell.  As the saying goes, bitter medicine is hard to swallow, but it is necessary to get the cure.  

[Michael (limmuwd)]

3 hours ago, warrior12 said:

Romans 6 has to read in its entirety to really understand what happens when a man is saved.   It is not just walking up to the alter and repeating a prayer of confession of sins, but something that took place in the heart.   Believers, believe in their hearts and confess with their tongue that Jesus Christ is Lord and that he died for their sins.  They now see the sin nature that they have within and the one who paid for those sins.  It is spelled out in Roman.  Sin has no more dominion over you.  You are now a spiritual warrior as you now know the truth and reality of the host of wickedness that are perpetrators of evil and who does his manipulations or play with your mind to  get you back into his world.   Now, when you resist the reality of the gospel come to light as you hear and read of the written word.

The issue that separates man from God is "unbelief that Jesus is Lord".   Once a man has been granted that grace, he would go through the trials of life that the devil and his dominion would put him through for  him to come back.  Since he now knows the truth and that he is loved and his sins we paid for, he strives to follow the Lord and his heart is converted to follow the word.  There is no  turning back, this is the believer.  His burdens are at the Lord feet and he rest in his mercies and this is what is meant by saving grace in short.

How do you interpret Romans 7 and Paul struggle as a believer.  Why did he wrote that ?. Yes, as you say rightly, context has to be read and examined as to the whole statement.

Romans 6 King James Version (KJV)

¹⁴ For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

¹⁵ What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

¹⁶ Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

¹⁷ But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

¹⁸ Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

 

Thanks for your reply. Romans 6 is one of my favorite chapters, along with Romans 8 (of which I've done extensive Bible Study), for it tells us of what it truly means to be baptized and become a True follower of Christ Jesus. Verse 16 you quote above is one of the keys. "Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?" Many church-goers, although "saved" still continually "offer themselves as slaves to sin", which can only lead one place. Being "saved" does not make one automatically a saint who only wants to serve God with all their heart, soul, mind and strength. We often claim that, but it reality it just isn't true. Look around you in church. Look at yourself in the mirror. We are only "servants of righteousness" if we are actually "practicing righteousness" in our behavior and deeds. 

Our initial being "saved" is an opportunity, not an end. The whole of Scripture, in context, undeniably confirms that.

[warrior12]

34 minutes ago, Michael (limmuwd) said:

Verse 16 you quote above is one of the keys

I appreciate  your forthright reply. Thanks.

Verse 17 that follows showed us who we are now that we are saved.  The believer is unique from the unsaved in that he now knows the reality and truth of the gospel which speaks to his heart and convicts him of the truth.  Once he know this truth, it pricks his conscience with the help of the Holy Spirit to follow the path of righteousness . 

He becomes stronger as this truth takes hold of his life . Yes the world the flesh and the devil would  be there to tug at his heart to pull him back into the mire,  but the truth is embedded in his soul that he now takes up the full armor of God and wages war with the spiritual host of wickedness in high places.  As the troubles and trials comes, it further strengthens him to press on, there is no  turning back. 

 This is the believer.  He is molded and through the sufferings and trials he endures.  The fate of the unsaved is known to him and yes, the Holy fear of the Lord reminds him that he has to strive to stay on the right path and to encourages others to do so, which builds his faith even more.   The Lord is not asleep, but sees his struggles and trials and helps him to mature.

 

¹⁶ Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

¹⁷ But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

 

 

[Neighbor]

3 hours ago, Still Alive said:

...The key is to not be MARRIED and DOGMATIC about beliefs that, at the end of the day are questionable interpretations of the bible. When we study it and have the holy spirit guiding us, we can get the message of God without judging him because of stuff that misses the point. This is especially important when discussing it with people who are hostile to the message, which I find myself doing quite a bit. If I debate with them based on the premise that the bible can be taken literally, I'll get chewed up and spit out. I don't play that game. 

Hi Still alive,

Sorry but the post declaration leads me to think immediately, "Then shame on all that do so".  Shame  for playing any game with the word of God making it a book of fables  then sharing of it in whatever new meaning and manner wished with an unsaved world. All the Bible itself is the reveal  of Jesus from word one to the very end, presented as  total and quite literal truth, delivered as inspired of and by God to many human authors of it's contents, foolishness to all the unsaved world and made known to those called out by the Holy Spirit alone.

Anyone's mission that changes those words, makes them  fables, instead of deliberate unvarnished truth  from God denies the competency of God Himself and substitutes their own competency and their own reasoning; and under what guise- that they are smarter than all that have come before them, up to and including God and that it is up to them personally to change the understanding of God's word so that these lesser than self beings may understand today ? 

As for myself, I certainly am married to the word and  dogmatic about not compromising it to  become a respecter of persons to appease the already misguided by their own notions and their own desires for a god of their own creation, by trying to explain God's word as not really meaning what it states.  I do credit God  as having the awesome power to understand that His word would be read today and to  have that covered. Knowing that His word Need not to be changed in it's meaning by any mere man that thinks others are not enlightened enough to understand when rceving the same specific call to their salvation by the Holy Spirit that they had received,  and then given reveal  of Jesus that they will understand, all without further  meddling of it by any man having to  change much of it to the status of fables.

In short I totally disagree-  Instead I do believe God knows what he is communicating. He communicates his truth  for my benefit personally,  as well as for the individual  benefit of  each and all that are called to  be with Him. 

[thomas t]

1 hour ago, warrior12 said:

Your topic statement seems a bit misleading as if to say that is all that is preached .

Hi Warrior!

My point is some jump in when there's a debate with a non-believer and/or doubter and preach it. They restrict their message to just that.

When I converted there used to be street preachers around in Germany who restricted their message to "y'all burn in hell!". Horrible. 

Christians seem to love it because it gives them the feeling of being superior to the rest?

When Jesus spoke about hell he first came up with some everyday subject, presented the problems within the issue and then brought the hell in.

This is ok.

1 hour ago, warrior12 said:

It will start with the introduction of sin and how every man was born in the state he is in and it will progress to show that the rejection of the salvation of his soul would ultimately lead to the place named in the bible as Hell. 

Look I'm wholeheartedly against all sorts of universalism, the teaching that implies that everyone ends up in heaven after some time, regardless of their wrongdoing, for example. So I appreciate you having the same state of mind with regard to universalism.

But what you're proposing here, to me, comes across as "ah Thomas, since you are there ... there is a topic popping up in my mind: HELL. HELLFIRE. SATAN. TURN OR BURN. BURN ETERNALLY in case you don't repent!!!!" (I took me as an example)

This would be invasive! Why me of all people?

This comes across like "Ah, Thomas, since you are there, I must think of Adolf Hitler!"

This is so abusive, in my opinion.

Please, Warrior, we need to keep some minimum level of conduct.

Regards,

Thomas

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2019 by thomas t
typo

[Michael (limmuwd)]

47 minutes ago, warrior12 said:

I appreciate  your forthright reply. Thanks.

Verse 17 that follows showed us who we are now that we are saved.  The believer is unique from the unsaved in that he now knows the reality and truth of the gospel which speaks to his heart and convicts him of the truth.  Once he know this truth, it pricks his conscience with the help of the Holy Spirit to follow the path of righteousness . 

He becomes stronger as this truth takes hold of his life . Yes the world the flesh and the devil would  be there to tug at his heart to pull him back into the mire,  but the truth is embedded in his soul that he now takes up the full armor of God and wages war with the spiritual host of wickedness in high places.  As the troubles and trials comes, it further strengthens him to press on, there is no  turning back. 

 This is the believer.  He is molded and through the sufferings and trials he endures.  The fate of the unsaved is known to him and yes, the Holy fear of the Lord reminds him that he has to strive to stay on the right path and to encourages others to do so, which builds his faith even more.   The Lord is not asleep, but sees his struggles and trials and helps him to mature.

 

¹⁶ Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

¹⁷ But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

 

 

Amen. May we be counted among them to whom this Word is given. For it applies only to those who "presented their bodies a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God", to those who actually are "obeying from the heart" the Truth of what Jesus & the Apostles taught. 

 

[Still Alive]

1 hour ago, Neighbor said:

Anyone's mission that changes those words, makes them  fables,

Here's the rub and it comes with two elements:

1. What words are being changed? I only see people changing translations. And because there is not word for word equivalence between English/Hebrew/Greek, then all translations into English are, by definition, also interpretations. So, if someone goes back to the original greek or hebrew and disagrees with what someone else is getting out of the english version, who is changing words?

2. John 3:16 and Romans 6:23 are plain language that supports annihilationism. Yet, a believe in eternal torment in hell will "change the meaning of the words. e.g. "death" isn't really death and "perish" doesn't really mean perish. I've actually heard the phrase, "that's not how the bible defines the word". The problem is that the bible does not define words. Dictionaries do. The bible USES words.

If all one is debating from is a particular English translation of the bible, and all they are depending on is what is said in their bible, they are guaranteed to lose a debate with a believer that uses study material on the source material and translation methodologies used to create the English translation. 

A simple example: neither aeonia, nor aeonian means eternity. They both discuss time in an endefinite length, yet they are used to mean "eternal" or "eternity" in the bible a lot, even for events that were of a very short duration. More precisely they discuss an age. 

And eternal punishment doesn't mean eternal "suffering". It means the punishment lasts forever. Or is it only for an age?

And what is punishment? It can be death - which most see as fairly permanent - or a spanking, or sitting in a corner. It depends on the purpose of the punishment. If it is to teach a lesson and change behavior (the usual reason for intentional punishment), it is kinda pointless for it to never end. If it is simply the result of disobeying a law - like jumping off a cliff and trying to disobey the law of gravity - it will bring swift consequences that are not designed to teach, but simply to apply a result. 

The result of sin is a miserable life followed by death. Feel free to ingest all the meth you want. You will be punished. For starters, you'll lose your teeth.

[Neighbor]

27 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

What words are being changed?

When one declares them to be expression of fable instead of telling of fact, all of the are being negated, changed, rendered meaningless, for they are then subjected  to becoming used to satisfy anyone's desire for what they "should" mean instead of what they do mean.

 

[warrior12]

1 hour ago, thomas t said:

Look I'm wholeheartedly against all sorts of universalism, the teaching that implies that everyone ends up in heaven after some time, regardless of their wrongdoing, for example. So I appreciate you having the same state of mind with regard to universalism.

But what you're proposing here, to me, comes across as "ah Thomas, since you are there ... there is a topic popping up in my mind: HELL. HELLFIRE. SATAN. TURN OR BURN. BURN ETERNALLY in case you don't repent!!!!" (I took me as an example)

This would be invasive! Why me of all people?

This comes across like "Ah, Thomas, since you are there, I must think of Adolf Hitler!"

This is so abusive, in my opinion.

Please, Warrior, we need to keep some minimum level of conduct.

Regards,

Thomas

There are many ways to say the same things in most cases I would think.   Some use raw language, which may not be the right approach, but nevertheless, it is their way of proclaiming what they preach.   Does the below conclude the same thing or not. It is the gospel.  

John 3 King James Version (KJV)

³⁶ He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.