The Impetus for "Peace and Safety!"

[Last Daze]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's interesting that Paul speaks to that day as occurring in two different ways depending on the group. The distinction is made between those in darkness and those not in darkness.

"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." - 1 Thess 5

So this day, the day of the Lord, occurs in what amounts to opposites depending on whether one lives in light or darkness. This would be the two subsets, light or darkness, of the set of all people alive at the time of the day of the Lord; necessarily meaning the day of the Lord and the sudden destruction come upon those in darkness, wherever and whoever they are.

In the flood sudden destruction took a matter of days for some, weeks for others and I would suppose it was instant for anyone in the path of the fountains of the great deep. They were unprepared so it appeared to occur without warning and they were destroyed even if it took weeks.

If indeed the the bowls, or vials, are the wrath of God and the sudden destruction does come upon people when the day of the Lord finally occurs it would seem to be upon all the people so affected for the duration of the pouring out of the bowls; a few months perhaps. Not that I want to get into a lot of word study but definitions can be enlightening; "cometh upon" is 'ephestemi',  to set upon, set up, to stand upon, be present; Usage: I stand by, am urgent, befall one (as of evil), am at hand, impend. This sudden destruction looks like a condition the earth and all it's people endure for a particular window of time.

The same would apply, in my mind, with peace and safety. Since the context is a comparison between the light and the darkness and those living in each, the call for security would apply to those in darkness and those would be in danger of the impending and present condition of 'sudden destruction'; which in my understanding seems more like enacting the punishment clause and not an execution or annihilation. And since it's an existing condition, this 'sudden destruction', it would not mean the destruction would fall in a moment but still be assured as it's based on a spiritual condition and not locale.

But this goes back to Isaiah 28 and my dogmatic position of the Israel-centric nature of scripture. I'm convinced from certain evidence in scripture, and empirical evidence, that peace and safety may only consist of the call from the nation of Israel for security, for which they will reap the consequences of Isaiah 28.  I'm not saying that many people won't be calling for peace and safety, they may be as 1 Thess 5 seems to say 'whoever and whenever they speak peace and security', I'm saying the ultimate consequential call for security will emanate from the nation of Israel and be joined by a chorus of voices worldwide. 

The combined voices operate out of the cloud of spiritual emptiness and this darkness will lead to the sudden and shocking fate of those who believe not.

I agree that the day of the Lord will affect different people differently based on whether they are in darkness or light. (I wonder if that has anything to do with lamps being lit or not?)

The message of the flood analogy is that the wicked were carrying on as if life were normal, not realizing their impending doom.  They didn't figure it out until it was too late.

The main point of this thread is that the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night which, according to Jesus in Rev 16:13-16, is something that is still yet to happen as the armies are gathering together at Armageddon.

[Diaste]

On 5/17/2019 at 8:10 AM, Last Daze said:

I agree that the day of the Lord will affect different people differently based on whether they are in darkness or light. (I wonder if that has anything to do with lamps being lit or not?)

The message of the flood analogy is that the wicked were carrying on as if life were normal, not realizing their impending doom.  They didn't figure it out until it was too late.

The main point of this thread is that the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night which, according to Jesus in Rev 16:13-16, is something that is still yet to happen as the armies are gathering together at Armageddon.

Well that brings up questions. 

If Jesus has not yet come, yet wrath has begun, and we are not appointed to wrath, and are not taken off the earth till Jesus does come as a thief, and Rev 16:15 clearly states he 'is coming' something has to give. Because if He has not come to get us when he appears, it is unequivocal in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 that we are gathered when he appears, then we are in His wrath as Rev 16:1 states wrath has begun. Yet 16:15 seems to say he has not yet come and His elect would still be here in wrath, which is disputed by 1 Thess 5, 1 Cor 15, 2 Thess 2, Matt 24, etc.

Why isn't Rev 16:15 an iteration of a characteristic action for readers to be aware of long before any of this occurs? A reminder that we do not forget the instantaneous nature of His coming and the reward for diligence and failure, and not a prominent feature of a previous timeline inserted into a sub timeline well after the fact?

I think this insertion has no bearing on and does not disturb well established fact on the timeline of His appearance and the gathering. 

It seems to be a reminder saying, "Stay ahead of events and remember just how quickly things will turn."

Or, "Remember to walk with me at all times and this will not fall on you." Or both. I like both.

 

On 5/17/2019 at 8:10 AM, Last Daze said:

 

The message of the flood analogy is that the wicked were carrying on as if life were normal, not realizing their impending doom.  They didn't figure it out until it was too late.

 

Yes, but that doesn't invalidate the point. It will seem sudden to atheists but to me the time is dragging by with glacial speed. The destruction of the flood was a present condition which is the point. In the face of eternity of death a thousand years would seem like a single tick of the clock and so it's the same here as the flood. It only seemed instantaneous as they were not watching.

The greater point was that 'sudden destruction' may endure for a given time greater than a single time/space moment lasting only minutes or hours in a single location. Hence the 'peace and safety' may be a world wide call not limited to any singular event but linked to a mental, emotional and spiritual condition of those in darkness, per 1 Thess 5, prior to the coming of the Lord and the onset of wrath of the 1st vial.

 

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

4 minutes ago, Diaste said:

If Jesus has not yet come, yet wrath has begun, and we are not appointed to wrath, and are not taken off the earth till Jesus does come as a thief, and Rev 16:15 clearly states he 'is coming' something has to give. Because if He has not come to get us when he appears, it is unequivocal in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 that we are gathered when he appears, then we are in His wrath as Rev 16:1 states wrath has begun. Yet 16:15 seems to say he has not yet come and His elect would still be here in wrath, which is disputed by 1 Thess 5, 1 Cor 15, 2 Thess 2, Matt 24, etc.

God is able to protect His people from His wrath without removing them from the earth.  The plagues of Egypt serve as an example.

• But on that day I will set apart the land of Goshen, where My people are living, so that no swarms of flies will be there, in order that you may know that I, the Lord, am in the midst of the land.  Exodus 8:22
• But the Lord will make a distinction between the livestock of Israel and the livestock of Egypt, so that nothing will die of all that belongs to the sons of Israel.  Exodus 9:4

 

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

God is able to protect His people from His wrath without removing them from the earth.  The plagues of Egypt serve as an example.

• But on that day I will set apart the land of Goshen, where My people are living, so that no swarms of flies will be there, in order that you may know that I, the Lord, am in the midst of the land.  Exodus 8:22
• But the Lord will make a distinction between the livestock of Israel and the livestock of Egypt, so that nothing will die of all that belongs to the sons of Israel.  Exodus 9:4

 

Never heard the plagues of Egypt likened to wrath; the flood, but not the plagues. Wrath maybe likened to drowning Pharaoh's army in the red sea, but the flood is the only analogy to wrath so stated.

[Last Daze]

20 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Never heard the plagues of Egypt likened to wrath; the flood, but not the plagues. Wrath maybe likened to drowning Pharaoh's army in the red sea, but the flood is the only analogy to wrath so stated.

How about the death of the first born where the blood of the lamb was absent?  Regardless, the example is valid.  God knows who is His and is able to protect His people from His wrath, wherever they are. 

[Last Daze]

23 hours ago, Diaste said:

Why isn't Rev 16:15 an iteration of a characteristic action for readers to be aware of long before any of this occurs? A reminder that we do not forget the instantaneous nature of His coming and the reward for diligence and failure, and not a prominent feature of a previous timeline inserted into a sub timeline well after the fact?

The fact that Rev 16:15 is sandwiched between two verses that speak of the armies gathering at Armageddon leads me to believe that His exhortation is relevant to that specific point in time.

[Diaste]

On 5/22/2019 at 7:09 AM, Last Daze said:

The fact that Rev 16:15 is sandwiched between two verses that speak of the armies gathering at Armageddon leads me to believe that His exhortation is relevant to that specific point in time.

That would then point to the occurrence of gathering of the armies in the Valley before Jesus appears, which is part of the vials, the 6th, which are wrath, which began at the 1st vial and the 6th seal; the 6th seal being the coming of our Lord and the beginning of wrath, and presumably the gathering of the elect. Didn't Jesus already come immediately prior to the first vial?

[Last Daze]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

That would then point to the occurrence of gathering of the armies in the Valley before Jesus appears, which is part of the vials, the 6th, which are wrath, which began at the 1st vial and the 6th seal; the 6th seal being the coming of our Lord and the beginning of wrath, and presumably the gathering of the elect. Didn't Jesus already come immediately prior to the first vial?

I view the seals as being opened sequentially.  After the sixth seal has been opened, the seventh seal is opened.  The seventh seal contains the seven plagues (trumpets / vials) which also unfold sequentially.  The statement that Jesus made in Rev 16:15 is between the sixth and seventh plagues which I conjecture to be about three years after the sixth seal is opened.

I don't agree with Jesus returning at the sixth seal.  I used to be of that persuasion but there are too many things that don't fit when you consider the return of Christ in its entirety and view the seals and plagues as being sequential.  

[Diaste]

On 5/25/2019 at 10:05 AM, Last Daze said:

I view the seals as being opened sequentially.  After the sixth seal has been opened, the seventh seal is opened.  The seventh seal contains the seven plagues (trumpets / vials) which also unfold sequentially.  The statement that Jesus made in Rev 16:15 is between the sixth and seventh plagues which I conjecture to be about three years after the sixth seal is opened.

I don't agree with Jesus returning at the sixth seal.  I used to be of that persuasion but there are too many things that don't fit when you consider the return of Christ in its entirety and view the seals and plagues as being sequential.  

This always happens doesn't it? We begin with a topic and then chase a rabbit!  

I like it. It's all about learning more about our Savior and as long as we don't bring up extrabiblical points like the price of tea in China it's all the same subject.

That being said I'll chase the rabbit down the hole. 

The Seventh Seal

When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and they were given seven trumpets.

Then another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, rose up before God from the hand of the angel.

Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.

 

The Seventh Trumpet

Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven:

Then the temple of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple. And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm.

 

The Seventh Bowl of Wrath

Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came from the throne in the temple, saying, “It is done!”

And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake the likes of which had not occurred since men were upon the earth—so mighty was the great quake. The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. And God remembered Babylon the great and gave her the cup of the wine of the fury of His wrath.

Then every island fled, and no mountain could be found. And huge hailstones, about a hundred pounds each, rained down on them from above. And men cursed God for the plague of hail, because it was so horrendous.

While I understand the Triune of Sevens are sequential individually, it sure looks to me like they are not successive to each other. It appears they run more or less concurrently, not one for one but all within the same allotted time, culminating at the preordained end of man's government and ushering in the reign of Jesus.

Unless the above described events happen three times, but I'm dubious.

In my fantasy world then Seals open and at some point Trumps begin sounding; before all the Seals open. The 6th Trump gathers the 200 million man army and the 6th Bowl paves the way, essentially allowing them to enter the Holy Land and fill the Valley of Decision. Christ is atop the Mount of Olives which split allowing safe haven for all that can get there before the final battle; might take some time for everyone to flee into the valley all while the Great Army is marching to it's certain doom. 

So then as the people flee to the Safe Valley all the bowls are poured out at once and the effects begin to run their course.

The only exception here is the 7th Trump which must sound before wrath as it's the clarion call to the dead and living in Christ.

In the above examples the "flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm."

are only seen at the 7th Trump while at the 7th Seal and 7th Bowl they are respectively:

"the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake." and

"flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake the likes of which had not occurred since men were upon the earth—so mighty was the great quake."

So then the 7th trump calls us up, both dead and living, to Jesus and the 7th Seal and 7th Bowl occur together and are the very end of the ways of mankind and the beginning of Peace.

Or so I see it.

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

On 5/22/2019 at 7:09 AM, Last Daze said:

The fact that Rev 16:15 is sandwiched between two verses that speak of the armies gathering at Armageddon leads me to believe that His exhortation is relevant to that specific point in time.

Could be. I continue to think that Jesus knew the prophecy would be read in it's entirety well before the foretold events and inserted the warning at a description of circumstances most dire; as if to remind us how quickly this would come upon us and not to get caught unaware and not necessarily as evidence of previous or ensuing events.

I don't know what the point of the warning would be when it's clear wrath is occurring and if indeed the warning only comes between the 6th and 7th bowl it's moot, to wit;

8 Next, the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was given power to scorch the people with fire. 9 And the people were scorched by intense heat, and they cursed the name of God, who had authority over these plagues; yet they did not repent and give Him glory.

10 And the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness, and men began to gnaw their tongues in anguish 11 and curse the God of heaven for their pains and sores; yet they did not repent of their deeds.

The language suggests the fourth bowl effects the whole earth.

You could be right, but I'm not convinced.