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Misunderstandings by some about Saving Grace


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What truly terrifies me is this  .     If we truly have the Holy SPIRIT in us ,  and we have learned Christ ,  we would long by now be identical and see sin

the exact same way the apostles who warned about it did .    Men are destroying the churches .

Grace would be teaching us all things necessary to walk holy and to be grave and serious when error is spotted .   Grace would not make light of sin .

JESUS DID NOT .    Don't we KNOW JESUS IS the comforter .     WHY would the SPIRIT then approach sin differently than did Christ or the apostles who I KNOW HAD the SPIRIT .

We must do an all out exodus of mens acroynms and doctrines and do a massive ENTRODUS back into THE BIBLE .     DO IT NOW .  DO it now before its too late . 

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43 minutes ago, childoftheking said:

 

 

Yeshua, being the Person of God, knew the Cross was ahead of Him.   The Lord's prayer has nothing to do with the Law or with Grace, much like the 10 Commandments, do not have relationship to the Law or Grace.    And we should always abide by them, especially the ones that Yeshua redefined.

 

 

 

We “ should” but we don’t.......we need a loophole....

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1 hour ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

We “ should” but we don’t.......we need a loophole....

Amen!!

 

And I absolutely believe if we truly are Saved and born again, we can NEVER lose our Salvation.

(1) God will never leave us

(2) Someone truly Saved and born again will never leave God

 

But twice we received from God in way of the Commandments and His Prayer.   These were important enough for God to PERSONALLy give them to us each time.   In my opinion, He wants us not only to observe them, but to obey and follow them!!

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2 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Every day I grow more and more worried for blood bought .    He is giving folks a license to sin .  He may not support sin , but he is giving folks a free pass to will full sin .

He has no idea the danger he is in .

There are others here who may be osas ,   but I do not even see them saying what blood bought implies .    

We should examine how he approaches sin and how all the apostles did .    And what a major difference in the two .   

Yet our pattern should be identical to the pattern set in that bible .     If not we are misunderstanding something big time .

I know what the problem is ,   anything to do with working out our own salvation with fear and trembling ,    Has been turned into legalism .

They took a big part of the original pattern set by CHRIST and kept by the apostels away from the church .   is it then any wonder why error only begat more error .

We gotta do something .     They think we are legalists ,  and have no idea we are simply keeping the same pattern the early church did .   Guess paul, james and

some of us are all legalists .   Cletus you just don't know how worried I am about this for some .    Wait ,  you actually do ,  you seem worried for them too .

 

You think I am wrong— I think you are wrong

You pray for me- I’ll pray for you

meanwhile......see if you can explain this: I have some very serious problems with a family member that would  drive many people to a life of misery or even suicide on a daily basis, yet anybody that knows me,knows that I am the most joy- filled person around — upbeat , witty, kind......what’s up with that? Why is my life so abundant if I have everything wrong?My faith has resulted in two things.....I want to know God more than anything in this world, and I sit around thinking about kind things to do to people.Doesnt that  make you scratch your head just a little bit.I would wager everything that humanly speaking, I have more peace and joy in my life than my critics have and there is less sin in my life than in theirs.I sin less and don’t even try.I think I am on to something good and I ain’t turning back.

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"There are a lot of "religious but lost" people who are doing the work of real believers, while real believers are doing the work of NO ONE , except to attend to their own carnal desires.

So, all of this, is meaningless. And that is because God does not accept anyone into his family based on their personal "worthiness", as all have fallen short, all are sinners.

The Cross is God's sole method to separate the lost from the saved.   There is no other method.   No works are accepted. No lifestyle.  No point of view.. No Opinion. =  "you must be born again".

God is the One who created the way Salvation SAVES, and Jesus is THE Way".  And there is NO other."

If people have all fallen short, they still fall short. This means they are ungodly, they still are ungodly. If God calls anyone, He transforms them, to be different from the ones who hate their brothers, they now love them, or there is no change at all, according to these peoples corrupted ideas. 

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.


"Yeshua taught in the Lord's Prayer, that God DOES NOT FORGIVE US unless we first have forgiven those who have sinned against us:

That would still hold true , but something happened that changed everything —- the Cross.Your sins are forgiven before you even think of committing them."

The Lord did not forgive us until the cross, when Jesus the Messiah is on earth bringing the judgement of the Lord to redeem us back to Himself through His righteous blood offering, forgiveness is taught by Christ and it is empty minded to think that Jesus comes preaching forgiveness that is not about the forgiveness He came to achieve on the cross. So in order, sand not taking any of the words of Christ away, unless we forgive, and have that forgiving nature in us given by the Holy Spirit to be born again, this shows to the world, this is how the Father does not forgive us..

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

So to sum it up for you, if you are in the power of satan, in darkness, doing works of evil, you are never turned to the Lords light

"We study, learn, and grow, praise, work, and worship-- just as I imagine you do.  No one here is cursing you or challenging your salvation.  I really do not understand why you would reject anyone's wanting God's blessing for you, but... it's your choice to view it as a curse."

2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.
6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.
7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is.
8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

" I posted the scriptures above in love to remind you that ONLY our Father knows our hearts.  We are not yours to judge.  We are His.  "

Ezekiel 33:31 And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.

Proverbs 26:28 A lying tongue hateth those that are afflicted by it; and a flattering mouth worketh ruin.

This is love for you..

Psalms 107:39 Again, they are minished and brought low through oppression, affliction, and sorrow.
40 He poureth contempt upon princes, and causeth them to wander in the wilderness, where there is no way.
41 Yet setteth he the poor on high from affliction, and maketh him families like a flock.
42 The righteous shall see it, and rejoice: and all iniquity shall stop her mouth.
43 Whoso is wise, and will observe these things, even they shall understand the lovingkindness of the Lord.

Proverbs 27:5 Open rebuke is better than secret love.

Proverbs 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

Psalm 141:5 Let the righteous smite me; it shall be a kindness: and let him reprove me; it shall be an excellent oil, which shall not break my head: for yet my prayer also shall be in their calamities.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.


"But if we do our best to walk in the light, we will fall short and sin against God, but Jesus will forgive us as long as we confess our sins"

We sin against the brethren, and sin against Christ, that is treading Him down under your feet to which there is no repentance.

1 Corinthians 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

We do not do our best, it is Christs best, which gives us the victory, it is all straight forward and good. We cant hate the ones we are to love, love is love and hatrwed is hatred..

1 John 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

1 John 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Luke 11:36 If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


"The Lord's prayer has nothing to do with the Law or with Grace, much like the 10 Commandments, do not have relationship to the Law or Grace."

All Jesus speaks is grace, and the ten commandments are everlasting, everything done is glorious and for purpose, it is man that has no purpose and is temporary like his understanding..

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Psalm 119:144 The righteousness of thy testimonies is everlasting: give me understanding, and I shall live.

Psalm 111:8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.


"And I absolutely believe if we truly are Saved and born again, we can NEVER lose our Salvation.

(1) God will never leave us

(2) Someone truly Saved and born again will never leave God

 But twice we received from God in way of the Commandments and His Prayer.   These were important enough for God to PERSONALLy give them to us each time.   In my opinion, He wants us not only to observe them, but to obey and follow them!!"

Born again is for few, and everybody is concerned about themselves, and not having the character of Christ to be only for another. The Lords prayer teaches humility, the word coming and in front of them that is their daily bread, the forgiveness that has been sent of Christ the hope of eternal life, the delivery from the devils temptation, for now God took His Kingdom to Himself and gave the power of His word  and the glory through Christ, who taught one way only, if you fear you will not be exalted, and when you exalted your fear is on it's way in the judgement..Does anyone see with me, that God highly exalted Him because He was obedient unto death and that this should be your way too, to lay your lives down ?

Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Philippians 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

"I wish traditions of man would cease and we could do away with these acronyms and such.  The Bible is ALL TRUTH, and it’s supposed to flow in TRUTH.  Let’s endeavor to understand ALL scripture as it’s written, and in context.  This endless accusing of each other is not pleasing to our Father—not at all.  My heart is heavy this morning.  May our Father forgive us for what we’re doing with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  So many people are reading what we say…. Are we driving them away instead of bringing them into the Flock?  "

When a person says their own opinion, it is against the Lord, even if they think they mean well. Nothing can drive anyone away, division  was sent by Christ, HIs sheep hear Him, others do not, and the Lord will decide on judgement day, and if anyone is pleased the way they are, remain as you are, and if anyone thinks they know nothing as they should know, good for you to rethink now..

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

1 Corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

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9 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Every day I grow more and more worried for blood bought .    He is giving folks a license to sin .  He may not support sin , but he is giving folks a free pass to will full sin .

He has no idea the danger he is in .

There are others here who may be osas ,   but I do not even see them saying what blood bought implies .    

We should examine how he approaches sin and how all the apostles did .    And what a major difference in the two .   

Yet our pattern should be identical to the pattern set in that bible .     If not we are misunderstanding something big time .

I know what the problem is ,   anything to do with working out our own salvation with fear and trembling ,    Has been turned into legalism .

They took a big part of the original pattern set by CHRIST and kept by the apostels away from the church .   is it then any wonder why error only begat more error .

We gotta do something .     They think we are legalists ,  and have no idea we are simply keeping the same pattern the early church did .   Guess paul, james and

some of us are all legalists .   Cletus you just don't know how worried I am about this for some .    Wait ,  you actually do ,  you seem worried for them too .

 Then you just don't understand what Grace really means.   He has told no one to go and sin.  Every believer has to study the word and examine it for themselves, pray and seek the Lord wisdom for his guidance .  The bible speaks volume on sin and its avoidance. He is not saying that we should not go and sin willy nilly and still be a spirit filled  believer.  No, the man who does so is not saved to begin with.   The human condition is that we are not perfect and and everyone would have to give his personal accountability as no one can fool his creator.  But we have an advocate that when we do err, we can go to him with confidence .  So then, you have no reason now to ask God to forgive you of anything, as you follow the law perfectly, isn't it.  Your prayer should not include anything of asking for forgiveness as you do no wrong, you obey perfectly.  Examine yourself man with this foolishness.   

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24 minutes ago, warrior12 said:

 Then you just don't understand what Grace really means.   He has told no one to go and sin.  Every believer has to study the word and examine it for themselves, pray and seek the Lord wisdom for his guidance .  The bible speaks volume on sin and its avoidance. He is not saying that we should not go and sin willy nilly and still be a spirit filled  believer.  No, the man who does so is not saved to begin with.   The human condition is that we are not perfect and and everyone would have to give his personal accountability as no one can fool his creator.  But we have an advocate that when we do err, we can go to him with confidence .  So then, you have no reason now to ask God to forgive you of anything, as you follow the law perfectly, isn't it.  Your prayer should not include anything of asking for forgiveness as you do no wrong, you obey perfectly.  Examine yourself man with this foolishness.   

The human condition is he is perfect, a perfect deceiver, perfect excuser, perfect for seeking all good things for himself, perfect at avoiding truth and perfect at calling darkness his light. Speaking of accountability and not checking the words you speak, or giving the scriptures to make as certain as we can, that we do no lie in Gods name ? Christ had to die for the words He spoke, as the world hated Him for His righteous judgement. His blood is what released the Holy Spirit into the world, and it is His body and His blood we eat and drink, we no longer feed off corruption, it ceased, what we hunger for and thirst for, and what we receive to eat and drink now is righteousness, and that is why that new creature only knows this, they cant know what they no longer receive. Just the same as the ones not cleansed, never knew the way of Holiness, they see it as a way to fail and that this is advocated for, it my well be, but still the wicked believer is to be put away from you, or if you think they are not wicked, or you dwell with them, or you are them, this is why it is a narrow path few find, as the world is on the wide one to destruction, because they believed the perfect lie, the devils way out appealed to them as everybody around them agrees to their deluded falling away ways.

 

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

 

 

1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Peter 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

1 Corinthians 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

 

 

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

1 Corinthians 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

1 Corinthians 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

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43 minutes ago, Sonshine☀️ said:

This may be true of a lot of Christian forums, but it is still a heartbreaking thing to see so many “hearts” divided.  There are so many divisions among us.  There is very little edification, just so much contending, this group against the other group.  

How would it be if we all had one “heart” and we made it our goal to avoid offending each other?  

I wish traditions of man would cease and we could do away with these acronyms and such.  The Bible is ALL TRUTH, and it’s supposed to flow in TRUTH.  Let’s endeavor to understand ALL scripture as it’s written, and in context.  This endless accusing of each other is not pleasing to our Father—not at all.  My heart is heavy this morning.  May our Father forgive us for what we’re doing with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  So many people are reading what we say…. Are we driving them away instead of bringing them into the Flock?  

Well said.   I've now been a Christian for about 45 years.  The debate on this thread is pretty much the first one I was introduced to as a young Christian and joined into.  I was basically indoctrinated that one side was right and the other was wrong and that to be a good Christian I had to join a church that was on the right side of this.  Sadly, it took me a couple decades to realize that neither side was "right" as they thought of it.  Even more regretful to me was the time and effort and good will I wasted and the bridges I burned because I was more zealous for being on the right side and proselytizing as many as I could from the other side.

I truly believed deep in my heart I was doing the biblical, moral, and right thing.  I now realize I was just so heavily indoctrinated I didn't know any better.  I knew my bible verses, what they meant, how to explain what the other side's verses *really* meant, and how the other side couldn't rightly divide scripture.   It's why it's hard for me to get mad at people who carry on this fight.  They are truly convinced deep in their hearts that God would have them protect younger Christians from the dangers of the other side.  I never reached the point where I doubted they were Christians, but I truly felt and believed that they were teaching unhealthy doctrine that would harm other Christians and that they shouldn't be left along with young believers.

Here's what I now see when I read a thread like this.  Yes, it's an oversimplification but it catches the gist of things I've been watching for decades.

Side 1:  The biggest proof of being a Christian is assurance and knowing you are saved.  If you don't have perfect assurance and teach young believers that they are completely secure in Christ, you are hindering them from being a good Christian.  Most of the progress made in the Christian life is due to this.

Side 2:  The biggest proof of being a Christian is a changed life and holiness.  If you aren't striving for and seeing progress in holiness, it is doubtful a saving work is going in your life.  If you do not teach young Christians that holiness and pressing forward in Christ is a necessary part of the Christian life, you are encouraging sin and hindering young believers from moving forward in Christ.  Most of the progress made in the Christian life is due to this.

Side 1 is horrified that side 2 could imply a person might not be saved if there is too much sin in their life.  Side 2 is horrified that side 1 could tell a new believer that rampant sin in their life is of no eternal concern because they are totally forgiven.  Side 1 truly believes side 2 is teaching one must do good works to be saved.  Side 2 truly believes that side 1 believes that continuing in sin has nothing to do with salvation.  Both truly believe deep in their hearts that the other side is bad for new believers and are potentially teaching another gospel and are close to being under God's curse for being wrong on this.

What changed my belief that I had to pick sides?  First of all, I hung around with enough mature believers on both sides of this to slowly realize there was no real difference between them in their daily lives.  Each side claims what they believe makes them a better Christian, but I couldn't see any real differences in the actual lives of Christians on either side of this.   I saw both mature and immature Christians on both sides.  I saw old saints on both sides with equal measures of real assurance and real holiness.  I saw those that were struggling and immature on both sides.  I saw struggles with doubts and sins in Christians on both sides.  If picking the right side was that important, I'm fairly sure I'd have seen some type of difference in fruit.  In the centuries this argument has been going on, I'm sure some huge chasm of fruit would have developed.  In all honesty, I have not seen it.  The only thing believers on the two sides agree about with regard to this issue is that they are very uncomfortable about the other side and would be happy if new Christians would join their side rather than the other side.  When it comes to this belief that only one side is right, I haven't seen good fruit but damage.  I've seen zealous sincere believers burn bridges within the body of Christ in order to proselytize from the other side.  I've seen mature saints who've each been walking with the Lord for decade unable in good conscience do evangelism together.  I've literally seen Christians who've known and ministered together for lengthy periods of time go different directions because they learned the other was on the wrong side of this issue and they no longer felt spiritually comfortable with them. 

The second thing that happened is that I slowly realized that both assurance and holiness are things that grow in our lives.  Neither show up completely fully formed and functioning in our lives.  They are things that we see in ever increasing measure as we grow.  Telling a new believer that they must now be completely holy is as healthy as telling them they should "know for sure" that they are saved.   New believers pretty much all struggle with doubts and sin.    Planting seeds in their mind that those struggles are indicative that they might not be really saved is unhelpful.  What really happens in our Christian lives?   We have a conversion experience of some type where we suddenly have a sense of God's presence and realize that He is indeed real and that we are now His adopted child.  Does this immediately give us 100% perfect faith and confidence where our thoughts, feelings, and attitudes are completely certain about everything?   Based on all the testimonies, sermons, and articles I've heard over the years, I don't think so.  Does this work starting in our lives change us in such a way that all sins immediately disappear?  No.  Some certainly do and our transformation starts, but sanctification continues on.   What do I see in all Christians?  I see struggles and concerns over doubts and sin.  I see victories and progress where doubts fade and are overcome;  I see victories where fruit and good works grow and sin fades.  I see spiritual growth.  It was when I started reading I John in Greek that I realized I had been missing something.  The Greek forms of I John 2:1 (I'm writing these things so you will not sin) and 5:13 (I've written these things that you might know you have eternal life) carry equivalent form and weight.  I realized that John seemed to see both assurance and holiness at the same level of possibility and desirability.  At that point, my sense of I John started to change and I started to see it as a book describing what the Christian life was meant to become as we spiritually mature.  This includes both holiness and boldness and assurance with God being things that grow in our lives rather than showing up fully formed immediately.

What do I now tell believers with struggles with doubts and sin?  I tell them something like this.  Our Christian life is like a garden.  It's full of things that will slowly grow and start to mature and start to bear fruit.  It needs to be tended, weeds need to be pulled, fertilize and appropriate amounts of water, sun, and fresh air are needed.   It will grow.   Trust, confidence, assurance, good works, fruit, holiness, are all things that you will see in increasing measure over time.   If someone is struggling with doubts, I don't lay burdens and a guilt trip on them that something is wrong if they don't have 100% surety at all times nor do I start questioning their relationship with Christ.  I point out that trust and confidence and assurance are a consequence and natural result of seeing and experiencing God doing things in our lives and those around us.  Trust and confidence and assurance are based in our firsthand knowledge of God, not repeated intellectual arguments to ourselves over why we shouldn't have doubts.  These things grow over time.   When someone is struggling with sin, I don't lay burdens and a guilt trip on them that something is wrong that they are not 100% holy right now.  I point out that growth of fruit and good works squeezes out the sin from our lives.  Some things we can easily fix on our own and change, we should of course do that.  But we sometimes have bondages and spiritual and emotional trauma and injury that requires God's healing and deliverance to free us.  Both assurance and holiness are things that we see grow.

How do you measure the health of a garden?  You keep track of whether it is growing and flourishing.  Is it getting greener with more buds showing and starting to bloom?  Can you see its progress?  Or is it starting to turn brown and dry up?   Are the plants you want to grow flourishing or are the weeds flourishing?  Is it covered in pests and insects eating leaves and stalks, or is it clear of such things?   Many years ago, I decided I was more concerned with whether the gardens I was watching were becoming greener or browner rather than arguing over whether or not a "real" garden could ever complete dry up and die and or how quickly fruit must appear before giving up on the garden.

It took me several years to change from being a proselytizing zealot (who would have gleefully jumped into a thread like this one to enlighten those who didn't know the Bible very well) to seeing that I needed to focus on what God was really doing in people's lives and doing what I could to encourage and help them according to God's priority.   I've learned that I pretty much will never fit into either camp anymore.  I don't idolize either assurance or holiness as ends in themselves anymore.  I see them as natural fruit that grows rather than goals to be achieved through our best efforts.  I've also learned to rather cautiously and prudently encourage holiness in those who treasure assurance and encourage assurance in those who treasure holiness.   At times, I rather cynically debate if it's even worth writing and sharing this stuff when I could be doing something else.  But, if a few hours of my time stays the madness in just one brother or sister's life and stops them from burning some bridges and wasting much time and effort fighting this destructive centuries old civil war in the body of Christ, it's worth it.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, pinacled said:

If recall correctly,

The Angel armies far outnumber the enemy.

The angels armies do outnumber the enemies armies, that is when they are called to fight them. In Kings we see they were resisting against what God wanted to be done, that resistance cant be done..

 

2 kings 6:14 Therefore sent he thither horses, and chariots, and a great host: and they came by night, and compassed the city about.
15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?
16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.
17 And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

 

Now we see the final war spiritually. Spirit is unseen. The devil is cast out because Michael overcame the devil, which is Christ destroying him that had power over death, the devil. The spirits of devils gather the whole world against Christ, because the Spirit of Christ casts out satan. This as told below is the salvation, and is the power of His Christ, who gave His life for us to believe in His righteousness on the cross. The accusing lying spirit is revealed, and the ones who fight with Christ do not love their lives till the death. They also overcome the devil by the blood of the Lamb, by His testimony that the world does not receive(seen here in this forum) and the whole world is in trouble, because they want to hide from the wrath of the Lamb and the last testimony is given and nobody seems to care if they have shame or not or fear..

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

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22 minutes ago, gordon7777 said:

The human condition is he is perfect, a perfect deceiver, perfect excuser, perfect for seeking all good things for himself, perfect at avoiding truth and perfect at calling darkness his light. Speaking of accountability and not checking the words you speak, or giving the scriptures to make as certain as we can, that we do no lie in Gods name ? Christ had to die for the words He spoke, as the world hated Him for His righteous judgement. His blood is what released the Holy Spirit into the world, and it is His body and His blood we eat and drink, we no longer feed off corruption, it ceased, what we hunger for and thirst for, and what we receive to eat and drink now is righteousness, and that is why that new creature only knows this, they cant know what they no longer receive. Just the same as the ones not cleansed, never knew the way of Holiness, they see it as a way to fail and that this is advocated for, it my well be, but still the wicked believer is to be put away from you, or if you think they are not wicked, or you dwell with them, or you are them, this is why it is a narrow path few find, as the world is on the wide one to destruction, because they believed the perfect lie, the devils way out appealed to them as everybody around them agrees to their deluded falling away ways.

Well you have no need to ask for forgiveness as you never sin as you are  perfect.  So, when you offer up your prayer, do you ask to be forgiven and if so for what ?.

 

Matthew 6 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)

 

12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven ([e]left, remitted, and let go of the debts, and have [f]given up resentment against) our debtors.

13 And lead (bring) us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

14 For if you forgive people their trespasses [their [g]reckless and willful sins, [h]leaving them, letting them go, and [i]giving up resentment], your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

15 But if you do not forgive others their trespasses [their [j]reckless and willful sins, [k]leaving them, letting them go, and [l]giving up resentment], neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses.

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