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Misunderstandings by some about Saving Grace


Debp

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"Side 2:  The biggest proof of being a Christian is a changed life and holiness.  If you aren't striving for and seeing progress in holiness, it is doubtful a saving work is going in your life.  

The second thing that happened is that I slowly realized that both assurance and holiness are things that grow in our lives.  Neither show up completely fully formed and functioning in our lives.  They are things that we see in ever increasing measure as we grow.  Telling a new believer that they must now be completely holy is as healthy as telling them they should "know for sure" that they are saved.   New believers pretty much all struggle with doubts and sin."

 

Side 2 also think that there is growth and no perfection. Holiness is not a white clothing that has filth on it, clean is clean, dirty is dirty. A new believer as you say, is to be told nothing, they have their own master, it is not for anyone's own ideas to say a thing, but the testimony to stop those wide path assumptions. New believers do not doubt, because we are damned if we doubt..

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

 

"We have a conversion experience of some type where we suddenly have a sense of God's presence and realize that He is indeed real and that we are now His adopted child.  Does this immediately give us 100% perfect faith and confidence where our thoughts, feelings, and attitudes are completely certain about everything?   Based on all the testimonies, sermons, and articles I've heard over the years, I don't think so.  "

Based on Gods words and ignoring the testimonies men receive of men, ignoring any mans teaching and articles made up, the conversion is to be humble as a little child, as a weaned child, and that heart of the child does not grow, it remains humble always and notice...is already GREAT..

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Psalm 131:2 Surely I have behaved and quieted myself, as a child that is weaned of his mother: my soul is even as a weaned child.

" Does this work starting in our lives change us in such a way that all sins immediately disappear?  No.  Some certainly do and our transformation starts, but sanctification continues on.   What do I see in all Christians?  I see struggles and concerns over doubts and sin.  I see victories and progress where doubts fade and are overcome;  I see victories where fruit and good works grow and sin fades.  I see spiritual growth. "

I think we see the examples, not yours in your church histories, but the one true..

Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.

2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

2 Thessalonians 3:7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

2 Timothy 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
 

" The Greek forms of I John 2:1 (I'm writing these things so you will not sin) and 5:13 (I've written these things that you might know you have eternal life) carry equivalent form and weight.  I realized that John seemed to see both assurance and holiness at the same level of possibility and desirability.  At that point, my sense of I John started to change and I started to see it as a book describing what the Christian life was meant to become as we spiritually mature.  This includes both holiness and boldness and assurance with God being things that grow in our lives rather than showing up fully formed immediately."

Gordon's interpretation time.  For the new ones, they have time alright, but they need to know Christ, this is not growing, this is coming to know Him. The love of God needs to be perfected in us, not grown, but we need love, to walk as Christ walked, not to sometimes walk and  then stumble, but to simply walk in His footsteps..

1 John 2:My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Now the sin not unto death are for the ones who do not know yet, and do not know the Lord as being born of God is knowing Him, all unrighteousness is sin, and the one who does not know what he is doing does not do it to death. This I can pray for, and I do, because the rest I don't know. Keep from idols, keep from the world, as that is the wrong place to be in its wickedness. Presumptious sins are the same as presumptious teaching, without any understanding or goodness behind i at all. This is done because it is a wicked world that accepts wicked interpretations..

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Psalm 19:13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


"What do I now tell believers with struggles with doubts and sin?  I tell them something like this.  Our Christian life is like a garden.  It's full of things that will slowly grow and start to mature and start to bear fruit.  It needs to be tended, weeds need to be pulled, fertilize and appropriate amounts of water, sun, and fresh air are needed.   It will grow.  "

What I tell them is, it begins sown as wheat, and the other is sown tares. The tares are evil, the wheat is good. The goo does not produce evil, neither does the evil produce good. These both grow, some do more good, and the other more evil..

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

3 John 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

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29 minutes ago, warrior12 said:

Well you have no need to ask for forgiveness as you never sin as you are  perfect.  So, when you offer up your prayer, do you ask to be forgiven and if so for what ?.

 

Matthew 6 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)

 

12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven ([e]left, remitted, and let go of the debts, and have [f]given up resentment against) our debtors.

13 And lead (bring) us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

14 For if you forgive people their trespasses [their [g]reckless and willful sins, [h]leaving them, letting them go, and [i]giving up resentment], your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

15 But if you do not forgive others their trespasses [their [j]reckless and willful sins, [k]leaving them, letting them go, and [l]giving up resentment], neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses.

 

Forgive us our debts and deliver us from the evil one. That prayer was accomplished, as we were quickened together with Him, and He did it once and for all,  as our flesh was uncircumcised,  which is to be dead in sins, and now He ever liveth to make intercession for us, we do not fall back again, and it is the Spirit of Christ that makes intercession for us, we would not know what should be spoken, as Christ is the one who is heard, not us. 

 

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

1 Corinthians 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

We are forgiven in Christ and forgive in the person of Christ, Paul was not commended by the believers for all he suffered, and gloried in his infirmities in Christ, and askewd for forgiveness for that wrong, but he did not wrong by hating and hurting others, this is not in the word of God..

2 Corinthians 2:9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

2 Corinthians 12:11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.
12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
13 For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.
14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.
15 And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved.

 

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7 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

You think I am wrong— I think you are wrong

You pray for me- I’ll pray for you

meanwhile......see if you can explain this: I have some very serious problems with a family member that would  drive many people to a life of misery or even suicide on a daily basis, yet anybody that knows me,knows that I am the most joy- filled person around — upbeat , witty, kind......what’s up with that? Why is my life so abundant if I have everything wrong?My faith has resulted in two things.....I want to know God more than anything in this world, and I sit around thinking about kind things to do to people.Doesnt that  make you scratch your head just a little bit.I would wager everything that humanly speaking, I have more peace and joy in my life than my critics have and there is less sin in my life than in theirs.I sin less and don’t even try.I think I am on to something good and I ain’t turning back.

I've heard many testimonies like this from many Christians over the years coming from both sides of the main debate on this thread.  Some attribute it to the particular things they believe and as evidence what they believe is correct.  I've heard old saints talk about assurance and knowing they were secure in Christ as being what lead to where they were at.  I've heard old saints talk about a lifetime of pressing forward in Christ and pursuing holiness as what lead to where they were at.  I've seen Christians who couldn't in good conscience agree to minister together because they disagree about this.  They've become convinced deep in their hearts that their explanation of how and why God has transformed their life was critical to that transformation .  I've spent a lifetime watching solid old saints that are a credit to Christ unable in good conscience to entrust a new believer with another solid old saint because they disagree on how to explain how and why God transforms a person.

My explanation is that God's Holy Spirit transforms us and that both assurance and holiness grow naturally in our lives.  It's not being a follower of Calvin or Wesley or having the right interpretation of various Bible verses Christians have been fighting over (and building walls and burning bridges in the body of Christ over) for centuries, it about the very real work that God Himself is doing in all of our lives.   It follows the same pattern in all believers. Our trust, confidence, and assurance grow as we get to know God and His character more and more over time and as we see His hand in our lives.  Fruit and good works start pushing out sin and we become more holy over time.  Both are a natural result of God working in our lives and changing us.   I've sadly seen many  Christians over the years on both sides attribute God's work in their life to having picked the right side and then split the body of Christ trying to convince others to join the right side.

 

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2 minutes ago, gordon7777 said:

Forgive us our debts and deliver us from the evil one. That prayer was accomplished, as we were quickened together with Him, and He did it once and for all,  as our flesh was uncircumcised,  which is to be dead in sins, and now He ever liveth to make intercession for us, we do not fall back again, and it is the Spirit of Christ that makes intercession for us, we would not know what should be spoken, as Christ is the one who is heard, not us

Ok.   The question still remains though, do you ever ask to be forgiven when you offer up your prayers and meditations and for what ?.  

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29 minutes ago, warrior12 said:

Ok.   The question still remains though, do you ever ask to be forgiven when you offer up your prayers and meditations and for what ?.  

You are answered, the Holy Spirit makes utterings for us, and it is the Holy Spirit that makes intervention for us forever. Also the Holy Spirit forgave us all the debt, and makes sure we do not add to it again. If you don't like the answer OK, but asking again receives the same answers.

 

Ephesians 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
 
Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Now your question.

 

Are you ashamed of the evil you say you cant stop doing to others, or not ashamed and is why you say we all cant stop it and need to ask forgiveness and never can stop doing the things we need to ask forgiveness for. Do you think God wants us to never stop working ill to our neighbour, did He show us this way to do all things well, or you see some crooked examples somehow ?

 

Romans 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
 
Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
 
If you think you can ignore my question, after I answered you, don't think you can ask anything else and receive any answers.
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1 hour ago, gordon7777 said:

You are answered, the Holy Spirit makes utterings for us, and it is the Holy Spirit that makes intervention for us forever. Also the Holy Spirit forgave us all the debt, and makes sure we do not add to it again. If you don't like the answer OK, but asking again receives the same answers.

You see, you really could not answer the question as you know perfectly well that you do ask the Lord to forgive you  for your shortcomings .  Pride is at the issue here sir.  You have to put it aside and humble yourself, as you can do nothing of your own.  Yes and I agree that the Holy Spirit is there to help us in our weakness, but it is with the mouth that we confess and the heart we believe.  

I do hope you are confessing your sins to one another and praying for the sick if they may have committed any sins as James is instructing.  

A believer do not live in willful sin and wallow in it, but he is still is surrounded by the elements of the world.  We cannot be to proud and puff up that we can be perfect in all we do.  

 James 5 King James Version (KJV)

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Edited by warrior12
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5 hours ago, Sonshine☀️ said:

This may be true of a lot of Christian forums, but it is still a heartbreaking thing to see so many “hearts” divided.  There are so many divisions among us.  There is very little edification, just so much contending, this group against the other group.  

How would it be if we all had one “heart” and we made it our goal to avoid offending each other?  

I wish traditions of man would cease and we could do away with these acronyms and such.  The Bible is ALL TRUTH, and it’s supposed to flow in TRUTH.  Let’s endeavor to understand ALL scripture as it’s written, and in context.  This endless accusing of each other is not pleasing to our Father—not at all.  My heart is heavy this morning.  May our Father forgive us for what we’re doing with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  So many people are reading what we say…. Are we driving them away instead of bringing them into the Flock?  

 

This obviously has a double meaning to it both in beliefs and in understanding, in theology, and definitely in general knowledge:

 

Luke 12:51 
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
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2 hours ago, warrior12 said:

You see, you really could not answer the question as you know perfectly well that you do ask the Lord to forgive you  for your shortcomings .  Pride is at the issue here sir.  You have to put it aside and humble yourself, as you can do nothing of your own.  Yes and I agree that the Holy Spirit is there to help us in our weakness, but it is with the mouth that we confess and the heart we believe.  

I do hope you are confessing your sins to one another and praying for the sick if they may have committed any sins as James is instructing.  

A believer do not live in willful sin and wallow in it, but he is still is surrounded by the elements of the world.  We cannot be to proud and puff up that we can be perfect in all we do.  

 James 5 King James Version (KJV)

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

"you know perfectly well that you do ask the Lord to forgive you  for your shortcomings"

Whosoever believes on Him shall not be ashamed, and notice, CONFESSION IS MADE UNTO SALVATION. Nothing else is told to be done for salvation.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

A man is JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, faith in His blood, for the remission of sins that are past, nothing speaks of needing to continue sinning and confessing to be redeemed..

 

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 

All is fulfilled in ONE THING, to love your neighbour as yourself. If we walk in the Spirit, we do not fulfil any lust of the flesh. These are contrary to each other, they are enemies, and not in each others camp. Calling ytourself a warrior and not knowing that does not show much sense. Maybe a proper soldier of Christ could confess his shortcomings ? Now, if you do any in the list there, which you say we all do and you do and cant ever end, but the Lords true witnesses keep telling us, we shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit, is temperance in all things, and if you claim to be Christs warrior12, you would have crucified your flesh with the affections and lusts..

Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

 

"A believer do not live in willful sin and wallow in it, but he is still is surrounded by the elements of the world."

 

You must be proud of yourself to speak all contrary to sound doctrine and the righteous example of Christ and the Holy Apostles of the Holy Lord God. When we were children, we were in bondage under the elements of the world. God redeemed us, and now not a servant to sin, but a son to abide in the house ever. When you do not know God, you serve the devils, and when you know God, you are not to turn again to those elements that are serving the devil, as that is to be in bondage to sin and not set free by Christ..

Galatians 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

The sinner has error of his way, is not converted, errs from the truth, his sins never hidden or forgiven, and he is the one compelled to confess all of this, but warrior12 has decided it is him and he wont change from erring from the truth or be converted to change..

James 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

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6 hours ago, gordon7777 said:

"A believer do not live in willful sin and wallow in it, but he is still is surrounded by the elements of the world."

 

You must be proud of yourself to speak all contrary to sound doctrine and the righteous example of Christ and the Holy Apostles of the Holy Lord God. When we were children, we were in bondage under the elements of the world. God redeemed us, and now not a servant to sin, but a son to abide in the house ever. When you do not know God, you serve the devils, and when you know God, you are not to turn again to those elements that are serving the devil, as that is to be in bondage to sin and not set free by Christ..

Are you casting stones brother.  Do you not read what I said. "willful".   So here is the question for you ?.

Do you ever sin, not even once ?.  Let me narrow it down. Did you sin once in the last year ?.    

Also.  Did not the Lord teach believers how to pray as an example and mentioned we should forgive so that we would be forgiven of what ?

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Jesus later said that we should forgive “ as God has forgiven us” .If God can forgive you and I despite our wretchedness, why should we not forgive others? That is the impetus in this Age of Grace.....The Cross changed many,many things....

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