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Gospel : Paul teaching = "preaching of the Cross". "we preach Christ Crucified"..."Jesus sent me not to baptize but to preach the Gospel".."faith comes by hearing this".....

So, all that, if believed by an unbeliever resolves an eternal issue......
What is the issue?
What is God's purpose for coming to earth to die as Jesus The Christ on a Cross?
What is He doing?...What is He alone solving, that all our 10 commandment keeping and holy lifestyle can never solve, which is WHY HE had to solve it? ?
And right here is what is so often misunderstood, or not taught correctly, and this is why so many people who mean well, and love Jesus, or would like to love him, do not understand <>WHAT IS<> the actual reason that God came here to die.

So what is that reason?
The reason, is that keeping the law, the 10 commandments, and doing good works, confessing sin, and living as holy as we can, could not make us acceptable to God..
And here is the "catch 22".... It also can't AFTER you are saved.
And right here is where "Legalism vs Grace" becomes the touchstone of constant fighting on forums, and everywhere else that it can show up where believers WILL clash.
(Apparently this clash became such a long standing fight and fury on this forum that members here are barred from posting- fighting about it.)

It is a fact and statement of the CROSS that the law and the 10 Commandments can't make you righteous, they can only show you that you are unrighteous., as that is the actual purpose of the Law, as well as outlining what God expects regarding our basic moral conduct & behavior, once we are born again.
So, how can it be that half the body of Christ is trying to keep all this, all these works, and they believe that this is "keeping them saved".
Whereas the other half of the body of Christ is trusting in Jesus to keep them saved.
So, do you see the line in the sand?
Its this " What is keeping you SAVED"....that is the minefield of theological confusion.
THATS the fight.
Legalism vs Grace.
Its happening on every forum like this one, and its the reason for 5000 denominations that don't agree, and 300 bibles that don't agree.
This issue started with Paul and his preaching of "justification by Faith" >alone, and he wrote the letter to the Galatians that talks about it, and explains it.
2000 yrs later, this issue of Legalism vs Grace is still a fist fight between "Christians".
Here on this forum, apparently they outlawed the battle. 

Isn't it interesting to realize that if the 10 commandments, or lawkeeping, or living holy, could save you or keep you saved, if that were the truth, then Jesus could have stayed in Heaven and saved Himself some PAIN.....
But ita not the case.
Now im not certain what you have been taught, but i teach that you "present your body a living sacrifice" and you to "live holy as God is holy", not to save yourself or keep yourself saved, but because this is what you should do, and what God expects, .. because you ARE saved.
The Legalist would argue that .."no, you do it to stay saved", and if you don't then you're not.
I wonder, reader, what you believe.
However, keep it to yourself, as this is between you and God, tho make sure you get it right, as if you get it wrong and you are teaching it, then Galatians 1:8 has become quite a literal issue for you.

So, leaving all that now, lets just look at the problem that God had to come here and solve for us, as to look at this, is to understand the reason for Salvation which is to understand Salvation.
Our problem we had, before we were saved, is only one thing, one issue only. And God Himself had to solve it, because we can't.
We are born, and we get older, and we don't have any righteousness.
None.
And so, God can't accept us, because we are UNRIGHTEOUS. 
This is "lost", "unsaved"....hellbound = we don't have any RIGHTEOUSNESS< as all of ours, are "filthy rags".
So, in steps SALVATION... Down from Heaven God as The Christ arrives... The Cross has been raised.... As God bleeding out on the "tree" has come down from Heaven to give us HIS righteousness so that He can accept us, based on THAT.......and for no other reason will He accept you, or me.
God, literally became a man, and died on a Cross, to GIVE US "the righteousness of Christ". (God's very own righteousness).
And that is what salvation actually is....Its God coming to earth to give us His righteousness so that HE can accept us, as by giving us His very righteousness, this makes us acceptable to God.
Welcome to Salvation.
Salvation is only.... "what makes you acceptable to God"....and that is one thing, its GOD'S Righteousness, becoming ours.
A born again person, has literally BECOME "the righteousness of Christ", and Christ is GOD.

To say that God's Grace is amazing, is really the least of what it is...
How can you describe the wonder of God, dying to give you His righteousness in place of your unrighteousness, as a free Gift?
Is there a word that can even claim to honor this spiritual transaction enough?
Just one.
LOVE.
Agape` Love.
God is LOVE.

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Notice, the end terrible times do not have legalists, they have boasters, prideful, disobedient, unthankful unholy, trucebreakers, fierce, despisers of good, heady, highminded, led away with sins, reprobate concerning the faith, lovers of your own selves, surely you see this is you who do the same things ? If you want the other path, it is perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works, from your instruction in righteousness..

2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

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It isn't salvation verses legalism, since the Bible never mentions legalism.  It can be salvation verses trying to be saved by doing good works and not accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour.  If you don't believe in Jesus, you can't be saved.  I could just as easily start a thread on salvation verses faith in OSAS, because they are not one and the same.  To trust in OSAS is to trust in a false and man made doctrine.

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Strange how everyone gets hung up on their understanding of how we are saved, yet ignore that Jesus said,'If you Love ME you Will obey ME/my commandments.' John 14:15

What is interesting is, do we Love Jesus and how do we show it?

We are not bound to obey the law/commandments but we bind ourselves because as Christians we do Love Jesus, don't we.

 

So how hard is it to obey someone you love?

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, gordon7777 said:

Notice, the end terrible times do not have legalists, they have boasters, prideful, disobedient, unthankful unholy, trucebreakers, fierce, despisers of good, heady, highminded, led away with sins, 

Actually the pride of the legalist is worse then all these works of the flesh, that you post in your list.

The reason the pride of the legalist is worse, is because a Legalist is not trusting in CHRIST ALONE< to keep them saved......and this means they are pitting, they are evaluating their own WORKS as their savior, and this insults the Holy Spirit, and denies the Cross its Power, and Jesus His Blood Atonement.

Legalism, is a person who has put themselves on the Cross, and kicked Jesus off, as they are now become the FINISHER of their Salvation.

This is the worst sort-type of Pride. 

Edited by Behold
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3 hours ago, Behold said:

Actually the pride of the legalist is worse then all these works of the flesh, that you post in your list.

The reason the pride of the legalist is worse, is because a Legalist is not trusting in CHRIST ALONE< to keep them saved......and this means they are pitting, they are evaluating their own WORKS as their savior, and this insults the Holy Spirit, and denies the Cross its Power, and Jesus His Blood Atonement.

Legalism, is a person who has put themselves on the Cross, and kicked Jesus off, as they are now become the FINISHER of their Salvation.

This is the worst sort-type of Pride. 

You can make legalism and legalist into anything you want, because it's not a Bible word.  It is just rhetoric saying the legalist this and the legalist that, and it is bearing false witness accusing people of being prideful.  

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18 hours ago, Behold said:

Actually the pride of the legalist is worse then all these works of the flesh, that you post in your list.

The reason the pride of the legalist is worse, is because a Legalist is not trusting in CHRIST ALONE< to keep them saved......and this means they are pitting, they are evaluating their own WORKS as their savior, and this insults the Holy Spirit, and denies the Cross its Power, and Jesus His Blood Atonement.

Legalism, is a person who has put themselves on the Cross, and kicked Jesus off, as they are now become the FINISHER of their Salvation.

This is the worst sort-type of Pride. 

Yes, an obsession to try to make pride worse than unholy and trucebreakers fiercely disobedient to the Lords Holy commandment that they turn away from into only sins..

 

Anyone who trusts in Christ has no boasting, no pride in themselves, no unholy actions, a pure mind and heart and spirit, lowly, not working the hatred sins of the devil to his brother, and to the ones who are not highminded, they will happily and with fear of the Lord await until that righteous judgement of Christ to see if they know the ones who did good believed in the good that Christ accomplished on the cross, and the rest believe He did no good at all, seen through the lack of good they ever do, and this list emphasises all..

 

boasters, prideful, disobedient, unthankful unholy, trucebreakers, fierce, despisers of good, heady, highminded, led away with sins

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On 5/20/2019 at 5:23 AM, Who me said:

So how hard is it to obey someone you love?

It is very difficult, very hard indeed to sustain obeying even someone I love. Without the Holy Spirit indwelling me I would not obey except when it suited my own purposes.

It is not natural to obey. It is  more natural to deceive even one's self, to rationalize evil as being good. The evil nature of one's heart is aware while even in the womb.

Love is also selfish, taking what pleasures it can obtain. That is the love that is natural to mankind in it's fallen state, a husband will lie to God's face and say the woman you gave me she made me do it. Mankind is totally depraved fallen without hope except that God has redeemed many to Himself by His love alone.

 

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On 5/15/2019 at 1:04 PM, Behold said:

So what is that reason?
The reason, is that keeping the law, the 10 commandments, and doing good works, confessing sin, and living as holy as we can, could not make us acceptable to God..

Actually it could and does. Jesus who is God and became fully man did that. He was perfect, the very standard of acceptance by God the Father.

Jesus who is God the son upped the anti so to speak. For He clarified that not only were the physical acts of man sin, but so were the thinking of sinful acts, the nature of the heart as well.

The issue is sin and sin alone, man is depraved not by rules, but by his fallen nature. He is deceitful at best.  He does not seek God, does not seek God's word, does not acknowledge God's sovereignty. He only seeks to deceive until God the Holy Spirit alone calls him to his repentence of his sin against God.  

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20 hours ago, Neighbor said:

It is very difficult, very hard indeed to sustain obeying even someone I love. Without the Holy Spirit indwelling me I would not obey except when it suited my own purposes.

It is not natural to obey. It is  more natural to deceive even one's self, to rationalize evil as being good. The evil nature of one's heart is aware while even in the womb.

Love is also selfish, taking what pleasures it can obtain. That is the love that is natural to mankind in it's fallen state, a husband will lie to God's face and say the woman you gave me she made me do it. Mankind is totally depraved fallen without hope except that God has redeemed many to Himself by His love alone.

 

You identfy the Christian and the nonchristian in your reply and seem to run them together.

There is a difference between them.

One wants to obey the other does not.

 

But the point of my reply is that legalism tries to frame life so we must obey.

Those who seek to obey out of love know they will fail, but still keep trying.

Picture a toddler, 'helping Daddy!' just how much help is that toddler, yet would the Father have the toddler not helping?

Our Father wants us to, like the toddler, to try.

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