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How to understand the "TRINITY"

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Posted (edited)

A mystery is something that has not been uncovered or revealed.

The Trinity is really not a mystery, as this is a misapplied definition that someone once used who didn't understand it, or didnt want to believe it, and it has sort of hung around Christendom, seemingly forever.

Now then......The Bible lays out the reality of  God's existence, generally,  as  3 distinct aspects, yet as  One individual whole....

So, here we go.... Lets take a look :

First......Think of yourself......are you a spirit , a soul, and a body?......... How many is that?......Well, you are Tri-part being.   You are 3 in One.

Have you ever noticed the sun in the sky?   The Sun:  is Heat, Light, and Actinic rays. (ultraviolet, etc).   That is 3 parts of the same ONE..... So, is that a mystery?

The reason most Christians think of these type things as mysteries, is because we live in the natural world, we exit in the natural realm, and so, what we don't see with our eyes, = "mystery".  "seeing is believing".

So, God is 3.  But He is One.  ... Like this :

  Christ said that He is "In the Father",  John 10:30

Thomas kneeled before Christ and said...>"my Lord and my GOD",..... and Jesus didn't correct Him.   John 20:28

Christ said......."touch me not, i have not yet ascended to my Father and yours"........  John 20:17

The reason the Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus is .....1.) Envy.   2.) Legalism: Religious Spirit, and because Jesus said......"Before Abraham was...... I AM"....and this is Jesus referring to Himself "pre incarnate", as in Genesis 1, when He was not yet "God manifested as a man, in the FLESH".    John 8:58    1 Timothy 3:16

So, we see that Jesus is talking about Himself (referring to Himself as God), before He was later come down from heaven as " God manifested in the FLesh"....... John 8:58 and 1 Timothy 3:16

Ok then,  i wrote a simple and quick "Trinity" study recently that i'll now post for you to use if you feel like studying all this, that im posting for yuo   

Here is the rest....

-

1.) John 1:10..  If you read it, you'll read that Jesus was in and literally placed His feet on the World HE created.

 

2. ) Colossians 1:6 says that through JESUS, and by Jesus, all things were created.

 

3.) 1 Timothy 3:16 says that "God" was manifested, (was made flesh and walked among us as a Man) ""

 

4. ) John 20:28 says that Thomas the Apostle, upon first seeing Jesus after He rose from the dead , said... "My Lord AND MY GOD"....

 

JESUS is the "word made flesh".      

God made all that you see, by speaking words.  "Let there BE...... light, nature, creation, all of it"....>"Let there BE" is like saying, let there BECOME.....   God spoke it, and it (creation)  appeared.
 

Genesis 1.  In the beginning was the Word and the Word (Jesus) was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was/is God.

So, there you have Jesus as the Word before He was sent here to die, being worshipped as God after He was sent here.

That is God the Father, and Jesus as the Word made flesh = 2

Then add the Holy Spirit, the comforter...... = 1

2 +1 = 3

 

Three are "One", as Jesus says. "I and my Father are ONE"..... yet, they are each, one of themselves.

 

"Trinity".

Edited by Behold
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14 minutes ago, Behold said:

A mystery is something that has not been uncovered or revealed.

As I just noted in your other post, in the New Testament, a mystery is something formerly hidden, but now revealed. Greek μυστήριον (mustérion).

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

As I just noted in your other post, in the New Testament, a mystery is something formerly hidden, but now revealed. Greek μυστήριον (mustérion).

What you are saying, is the true koine greek understanding of the word "mystery", sure.

However, if you take 50,00 Christians, 10 from every denomination, worldwide,  and ask then to explain the "trinity", they will say...."thats a mystery".

But it's not.  Its a doctrine in the NT that has gotten misused and abused and miscast. 

The same thing has happened to the phrase "OSAS":, which is just the simple fact of how redemption works as an eternal process.... YET.... this term gets abused by law-keeping religious types who do not understand Grace and will not understand it until they experience it.

Edited by Behold
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1 minute ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I agree with all you said there, except with a minor exception, and that could just be a misunderstanding on my part.

There I am thinking, that they may be already experiencing God's grace, but will still not understand it, until He comes again. On the other had, while it is unfortunate that they do not fully understand it, their lack of understanding, will not necessarily keep them out of Heaven, The unfortunate part of that is that they cannot fully appreciate the grace of God, if they underestimate what it is that they have to be thankful for, that all the work was done by Him. God in Christ, did not save us initially, only to have us try to keep our salvation by things we do. When Jesus said "it is finished, He meant it. The redeemed have eternal life, not eternal life IF they can keep it

It is an awesome thing that God will lose not of those He has saved, and will continue His work in us, through the perseverance that He insures, but then, you know all this!

 

 

Christians all start at the same place.   The Cross.

But not all of them stay there.

Some fall away from grace....they stop trusting in the Lord as they did when they were saved, and they become "self savers"......"im doing this, and keeping this commandment, and im working, enduring, abiding.......MYSELF to keep myself saved". 

Paul wrote Galatians to exposes these types, and if you just drill down to the bone, to get the literal understanding of a person who thinks they can "lose it", you find that they are now on the Cross, and Jesus is no where in sight.  Their "living it", has replaced the Blood Atonement.

Some of these people are saved, but many are just religious, and can speak "christianese", and run around in packs of 3-4 and show up on "Christian" forums, trying to bait and troll.

This is every Christian forum, you find them, the same people..... including on this forum.

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We have already a conversation going about the Holy Spirit, maybe somebody wants to read those posts also, to get more understanding of who the Holy Spirit is?

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2 hours ago, angels4u said:

We have already a conversation going about the Holy Spirit, maybe somebody wants to read those posts also, to get more understanding of who the Holy Spirit is?

 

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Posted (edited)

he Trinity is one God existing in three Persons. Understand that this is not in any way suggesting three Gods. Keep in mind when studying this subject that the word “Trinity” is not found in Scripture. This is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God—three coexistent, co-eternal Persons who are God. Of real importance is that the concept represented by the word “Trinity” does exist in Scripture. The following is what God’s Word says about the Trinity:

1) There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5).

2) The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word for "God," "Elohim," definitely allows for the Trinity.

In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this passage is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of three distinct Persons in the Trinity.

3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages. In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). The Spirit is distinguished from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17). This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another Person in the Trinity—the Father.

4) Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16).

5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.

6) The individual members of the Trinity have different tasks. The Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

There have been many attempts to develop illustrations of the Trinity. However, none of the popular illustrations are completely accurate. The egg (or apple) fails in that the shell, white, and yolk are parts of the egg, not the egg in themselves, just as the skin, flesh, and seeds of the apple are parts of it, not the apple itself. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not parts of God; each of them is God. The water illustration is somewhat better, but it still fails to adequately describe the Trinity. Liquid, vapor, and ice are forms of water. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not forms of God, each of them is God. So, while these illustrations may give us a picture of the Trinity, the picture is not entirely accurate. An infinite God cannot be fully described by a finite illustration.

The doctrine of the Trinity has been a divisive issue throughout the entire history of the Christian church. While the core aspects of the Trinity are clearly presented in God’s Word, some of the side issues are not as explicitly clear. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God—but there is only one God. That is the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. Beyond that, the issues are, to a certain extent, debatable and non-essential. Rather than attempting to fully define the Trinity with our finite human minds, we would be better served by focusing on the fact of God's greatness and His infinitely higher nature. “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” (Romans 11:33-34).

https://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html

trinity.jpg.8129b7ff227353ecd4649397b9adba3d.jpg

Edited by missmuffet

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Posted (edited)
On 5/16/2019 at 12:37 AM, missmuffet said:



2) The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word for "God," "Elohim," definitely allows for the Trinity.

 

 

 

image.png.6cdc397d7f8d778f2623062a02dac6bc.png
Elohim in Biblical Hebrew and In Modern Hebrew, it is often referred to in the singular despite the -im ending that denotes plural masculine nouns in Hebrew.
 
 
Yeshua as I AM in Exodus speaking to Moses in the Burning Bush said, I AM THE ELOHIM OF YOUR FATHER, THE ELOHIM OF ABRAHAM, THE ELOHIM OF ISAAC, AND THE ELOHIM OF JACOB:
 
Shemot - Exodus - Chapter 3
6 וַיֹּ֗אמֶר אָֽנֹכִי֙ אֱלֹהֵ֣י אָבִ֔יךָ אֱלֹהֵ֧י אַבְרָהָ֛ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֖ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֣י יַֽעֲקֹ֑ב וַיַּסְתֵּ֤ר משֶׁה֙ פָּנָ֔יו כִּ֣י יָרֵ֔א מֵֽהַבִּ֖יט אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִֽים:
 
 
So, how is Yeshua (I AM) claiming to be ELOHIM = 3
This is as SINGULAR IN MEANING as it gets!!
 
And why DO YOU BELIEVE THE HEBREWS/JEWS ARE SO IGNORANT YOU HAD TO REDEFINE THEIR WORD ELOHIM THAT MEANS ONE GOD, not plural, IN THE HEBREW LANGUAGE?
 
Is it so you can have this False trinity concept?
 
 
 
 
And where are you getting 3 PERSONS when (the term PERSONS) is not scriptural but MAN MADE TRADITION?
 
 
 
I have already provided the KJV Bible has falsely manipulated Matthew 28:19 and 1 John 5:6-8 in another thread and will copy/paste that on to this post so you can ALSO ANSWER ME THAT!!
 
 
****************************************************************************************************************
 

Where does it claim that God is THREE PERSONS, the term PERSONS in nowhere within scripture?

 

And why would anyone base their Theology from the King James Bible that shows human manipulation all throughout it?

 

When you use the information from the Papyrus we understand to be the Original Greek, and even the first translation from the Original Greek (Latin Vulgate), they align together perfectly and the King James is nowhere close in meaning.

 

Example:

KJV

Matthew 28:

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

 

Proper Translation + church history to back the proper translation

GREEK:

 19 Going, then, disciple all the nations, baptizing them into My Name

 

CHURCH HISTORY

With one word and voice He said to His disciples: “Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you,” — (Proof of the Gospel by Eusebius, Book III, ch 6, 132 (a), p. 152)

 

Who said to them; “Make disciples of all the nations in my Name.” — (Eusebius, Proof of the Gospel, Book III, Chapter 7, 138 (c), p. 159)

 

 

The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:

"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the fourth century."

Even the Catholic Bible Catechism (the picture I uploaded) on last paragraph explains Matthew 28:19 was changed from its original (which means they changed God's own personal words :()

 

 

 

 

another verse manipulated by KJV

1 John 5:

6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

 

 

 

Original Greek:

1 John 5:

6 This is He Who is coming through water and blood and spirit - Jesus Christ - not in the water only, but in the water and in the blood. And the spirit it is which is testifying, for the spirit is the truth, 

7 seeing that three there are that are testifying, 

8 the spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are for the one thing."

 

^

(1)clearly speaking ONLY OF YESHUA

(2)no mention of the Father-Son-Holy Spirit in the (Original Greek) so let's see what the (Original Latin Vulgate = first language to be translated from the original Greek) claims:

 

Latin Vulgate

1 John 5:

 

6 hic est qui venit per aquam et sanguinem Iesus Christus non in aqua solum sed in aqua et sanguine et Spiritus est qui testificatur quoniam Christus est veritas

This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ: not by water only but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit which testifieth that Christ is the truth. 
 
7 quia tres sunt qui testimonium dant

And there are Three who give testimony 
 
8

Spiritus et aqua et sanguis et tres unum sunt

the spirit and the water and the blood. And these three are one. 

 

 

^

(1)clearly speaking ONLY OF YESHUA

(2)no mention of the Father-Son-Holy Spirit

 

***So the ORIGINAL Latin Vulgate verifies the Original Greek***

 

 

That then leads to the obvious question:

If Matthew 28:19 in the Original Text does not say Baptize in name of Father-Son-Holy Spirit (but as historians prove up till 4th Century like Book of Acts "In Name of Yeshua")...AND...1 John 5:6-8 does not mention Father-Son-Holy Spirit in both Original Text and Original Translation into Latin Vulgate...HOW COME THE KJV BIBLE THEN FALSELY CLAIMS WHAT THE ORIGINAL VERSIONS DO NOT?

 

Why the need for the Manipulation of scripture?

Why wasn't the ORIGINALS not accepted?

Why was Matthew 28:19 and 1 John 5:6-8 CHANGED and DOES NOT match the ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS?

 

 

 

 

catholiccatechismbaptism.jpg

Last paragraph shows they changed the Baptismal Formula in 4th Century ^

 

 

 

AND WHERE IS THE WORD TRINITY FOUND IN SCRIPTURE BECAUSE THE GREEK NOR LATIN VULGATE DO NOT INCLUDE SUCH RUBBISH?

Edited by childoftheking

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Doesn't really seem mystical to me;

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Ex 24:9-11 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy
of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was
under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it
were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the
children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat
and drink.
KJV
John 6:44-46 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent
me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in
the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore
that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not
that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath
seen the Father.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~
Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed.
Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from
Him.
So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of is not what that
the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the Old Testament.
Looking further:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 1:1-10 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All
things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that
was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the
light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There
was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a
witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might
believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that
Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh
into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and
the world knew him not.
KJV
John 8:52-58 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a
devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man
keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than
our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom
makest thou thyself? Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is
nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is
your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should
say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him,
and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he
saw it, and was glad.
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and
hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say
unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel
interfaced with in the Old Testament days. Jesus in this form was with
the Father from the beginning.
It seems to me that the people of the Old Testament days were not aware
of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he
existed in before he became flesh.
Further:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phil 2:5-11Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with
God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a
servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in
fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death,
even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted
him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name
of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in
earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father
worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the Old Testament
times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the
Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the
Father on earth.
Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that
did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only
thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only
as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the
fleshly body.
`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 14:10-11 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the
Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself:
but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that
I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the
very works' sake.
KJV
John 17:20-26 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which
shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as
thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in
us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory
which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as
we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in
one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved
them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou
hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory,
which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of
the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I
have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I
have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love
wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for
the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the
Father as the Father knows us. Thus we now can do the work of the
Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the
firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man
came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so
in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to
God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all
authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies
under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he
hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are
put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all
things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then
shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things
under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and
authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus
will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to
Him........ The Father.
I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He
was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father
after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over
all and giving it to the Father.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1 Cor 8:4-6 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are
offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the
world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be
that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods
many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of
whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom
are all things, and we by him.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But to us, there is but one God, The Father of whom all things
came from......
And one Lord, Jesus whom we call the Christ, through which all things
came including us.
And we have the Holy Spirit which was sent to us from the Father at the
request of Jesus.
Interestingly, all three are one in thought, one in purpose, and one in
action. We can't interface with the Father without being indwelt by
the Holy Spirit, and we can't have the Holy Spirit without the
sacrifice and request of Jesus, and we couldn't have had Jesus without
the Father asking Him to do what he has done for us.
You have to have all three or none. And thus they are one.

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      So. what is this?   What is this AS compared to being saved - born again?
      Its very simple....
      a "form of godliness" is religion. All Religion.   All Religion is a "form" of Godliness that isn't actually true Godliness.     And what is the difference between Religion and Christianity?     Well, Religion is man's self effort to touch God or become God.    Whereas Christianity is God coming to Man, as a divine Man,  to take man back home.    Religion is man's self righteous effort to get in touch with God, and Christianity is God on a Cross touching humanity with the Blood of Jesus, the Righteousness of God,  and the Love of God..
       Its, "self righteousness", which is Religion.    Look at that phrase..."self righteousness"......"self".."right'.......trying to make "self" "right" with God.......by SELF.   (Legalism)   By works, by lifestyle, by commandment keeping, and worrying about keeping the law to TRY to make "self" = "righteous".
      See it?    All Religion is an effort to ither become Divine, or to join Divinity, by SELF RIGHTEOUS EFFORT... = trying to make "self" "right"......= Self-Righteousness. = Religion.
      And THAT.......all that is Religion, and it is what 2nd Timothy is defining as "a FORM of Godliness", that "denies the Power of God".
      So, what is the Power of God that imparts Godliness?   It IS the only and sole means and method that causes you to become born again.    This is being SAVED.... This is...God giving you HIS very Righteousness, which is the defining idea  you are to comprehend so that you perfectly understand WHAT the Power of God is, exactly and in Truth.
      The power of God, is the ability of God to recreate you as a "new creation" "in Christ".  So, this, once applied to you, is not a "form of Godliness", ... Its not self righteous effort .....Its not Religion, and its not something that you can  do for yourself.   Its something that God did for you on a Cross and then offer this Power, this Redemption, this BLOOD ATONEMENT, as a "free Gift", and when you by Faith trust in Christ, God then delivers the literal Power of God thru Christ that recreates you as born again and a "new Creation in Christ".
      To simplify......  
      "A form of Godliness" is Religion..... is Legalism....is trusting in SELF, instead of trusting totally in CHRIST to save you and keep you saved.
      Listen....if you are not trusting in Christ Alone to keep you saved, then you are not really trusting in Christ.    Thats a fact.
      Real Godliness is Redemption.   Real Godliness is God making you righteous and keeping you righteous, =  through the Blood of Jesus.
      "A form of Godliness" is a person trying to be good enough, live holy enough, or reach high enough by self righteousness, as THEIR RELIGIOUS EFFORT to become one with God, and in doing this they are "denying the real power of God" which is......The Cross and God as Christ on it as total eternal Redemption offered as a free GIFT...= "the GIFT of Righteousness". .  = (Grace).
    • By SurrenderedWife
      There are so many lessons I learned along my journey with God, that I thought I'd share my full testimony in case some parts speak more to some than others.
       
      I was raised in an atheist family (in New Zealand), suffering through bullying within and outside of home. I would have killed myself if not for an online friend - only person who I felt had loved me. I never heard the gospel until I was 21, and would have spent an eternity in hell!  I was seeking my own gain (to network with a singer), when she asked me to meet her at church (in Japan where only 1% are Christian! What are the odds?) I heard the gospel, and moved to tears, without questioning accepted God's gift of salvation. That was 10 years ago.
      When I shared the good news with my boyfriend and mum (those who were my greatest support), they quickly talked me out of it. I never gave up seeking the meaning in life, and explored Hare Krishnas and Falun Gong. Believing that truth leads to meaningful life, I questioned inconsistencies I saw there and was met with frightening hostility! I did stay with astrology and one day suddenly became very sick - almost dying of gallstones - something unheard of in a health-conscious female of that age. I didn't know God, but I remember swearing at the unjust  universal powers that be.
      Through another coincidence, I befriended a Jehovah's Witness. Oddly he showed me Zeitgeist, while keeping his faith to himself so as not to impose. I didn't find out about his beliefs until years later (after surgery) when I asked him about it. I asked lots of questions and was astounded by the beauty and profundity of the Bible, particularly 1 Corinthians 13. I prayed heartily, had a premonition followed by an audible voice, and this is when I made my full-blown repentance.
      At the time, my atheist boyfriend and I were designing a game campaign involving doctrinal differences such as if God is one or Triune, whether to keep the Sabbath etc. I thus looked into these issues before attending a church, and went down a loooong rabbit hole of truth-seeking (on my own!). After about a month of research, I left him after he refused to accept Jesus. I joined a Seventh Day Baptist church (not having had any counsel from experienced Christians) and only escalated into trying to keep ALL the commandments (OT included) from there. Too bad I hadn't come across dispensationalism to realise what applies to whom and when!

      I stayed with the family of a little Messianic Judaism cult where we were led by an 'Apostle' and spent days delving into the minutia of headcoverings, beards and the true name of God. Unsurprisingly, there was a lack in areas of submission in families and love between brethren. When I was continually slandered, I brought it up to the sister, then to two witnesses, then congregation and then in her embarrassment she jumped out saying she will "kill me" and threw me out of her house. I had no fear. I had recently quit a job because I couldn't keep the solar-lunar Sabbaths, and the conviction of my heart was that I would be ready to die for the Lord. Instead, I (on my own again) questioned and questioned this and that until my research led me all the way into atheism and I denied our Lord the second time.
       
      I tried to get back with my first boyfriend, but he insisted our relationship be secret and strictly sexual. I turned him down and found myself another humanitarian intellectual. This relationship too was very rocky - we had our fun times but I wanted him to get his act together and make something of himself and he bristled at my controlling behaviour.
      God wasn't done with me yet though, and about 3 years ago I again came around to Christianity after digging around in conspiracies. I was quick to drop all the sin in my life, including fornication, and this angered my boyfriend. He debated me for hours each day, and I was amazed that I was able to pull out strong, logical apologetics out of thin air. Shaken by the strength of my faith, my boyfriend said goodbye to his spirit guide (who came to him suddenly in a meditation long ago), and prayed and fasted for 7 days to 'see God'. Alas, he said he didn't have the experience. The Holy Spirit was working a miracle through me, I thought, until eventually he talked me out of the faith and I denied our Lord for the third time. Ah, the spirit of Peter that I am! ;o;
      The Lord did bless our efforts though as my boyfriend ended up dropping a lot of degeneracy, but it was hard for me to trust it being genuine and trust issues continued to rip us apart. Oddly enough, because of the same life goals (homeschooling kids on a homestead and political activism to help liberate people from oppressors), and wanting kids to have stability, we ended up exchanging vows before God. At the time, we were learning about the benefits of following Christian morals and were considering ourselves 'culturally Christian', while keeping many new age practices. We joined an angry political group that wouldn't be at all Biblical, and in the pit of my stomach I felt this was a bad plan... 
      While my husband's life was improving mine was continuing to slide - my physical and mental health continued despite finding the 'truth' about nutrition and making everythign from scratch, as well as avoiding chemicals.. and of course LOTS of personal development and increasing meditation. Our relationship too was getting worse despite my tips and tricks. We started our family just before I turned 31, and I miscarried in terrible pain 9 weeks later (no drugs taken so as to keep body healthy). This was followed by a terrible self-move to another city after which something major broke down in the house every day and we were biting each other's heads off from the stress. Our kitten died of toxoplasmosis which she should have NEVER gotten or died of (chance is less than .001%), and I was terrified how I might get infected and ruin our future baby - we fought about litter hygiene daily. Our other cat continued to cause problems until we got them a mate and things got worse. I got pregnant again and miscarried the second time. That was the end of the line for me - life was 99% pain and I couldn't take it anymore. I couldn't help myself and no one could help me. In desperation, I cried out for Jesus to save me, telling Him that if this is all a plan to get me back - fine, He can have me!!  That very instant, I was soothed. Somehow I knew everything would be ok from now on, because "everything works for good to those who love God and are called according to His Purpose" Rom 8:28.
      My husband and I now suddenly had very opposed political views (and he considered breaking up with me for a while), and I was sharing my faith with the Godless group, but they didn't really care, increasing my feeling of being a useless human being. I didn't tell my dad, since he just gets angry, disappointed and parrots "religion is the opium of the people". I don't believe in hiding God's lamp under a bushel, and I care about souls, so I talk to everyone else in my circle - ALL non-believers, telling them my testimony and sharing the beautiful gospel of Christ as it was finally being revealed to me. I also couldn't help but mention other amazing facts in conversation that made the Bible real. The people closest to me (husband and mum) say they like me better as a Christian, which amazes me. I was never able to improve myself, but my husband says my temperament has changed. To me that's a miracle.

      Still, no one seems to have been moved to accept Jesus, but rather with every word and action that proceeds from them, Satan is planting doubts in MY mind. I want to be used by God for great works, but I feel not used at all. I repent and surrender every day, and study, so I don't know what else I can do to be a useful vessel. 
      Lessons learned:
      -Online friendship can save lives!
      -Killing yourself is a bad idea since something better still awaits you!
      -New believers should quickly find Christian support, while not committing to any church or doctrine too hastily
      -Please don't hide your faith from the people around you - you never know who needs to hear it!
      -If we turn away from God, He being faithful will look for the lost sheep and will either bring it back through love or through chastening. Don't be surprised if you are given up to Satan's torture if that's what it takes for you to stop trusting in idols and repent
      -Be very slow to change your beliefs or commit to something for life - be thorough in research, counsel and prayer, especially in weighty matters such as marriage for life and your eternal life!
       
      Thank you for everyone on this forum who has helped strengthen me with scriptures and prayer.
       
      If you have gone through anything similar and want me to be your support buddy or anything like that please reach out <3
       
      With love in Christ,
      Anna
       
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